why so afraid to go it alone

thehighground

marco_polo wrote: »

Well two of them are already paying tarriffs already so one more would not make much difference in the grand scheme. And any food shortages are being largley driven by grain and rice production not beef shortages.

Ireland competes in that we have a plentiful supply of (cheap to produce) grass (due to our climate & good soil) which means that our cattle are outside on the land for most of the year.

European countries like France have to keep their animals indoor all year round because of climate (too hot) - so they have to feed them silage (costs to make and store) and grain (world shortage).

Ireland also grows grain - we can export that too

marco_polo

thehighground wrote: »

Ireland competes in that we have a plentiful supply of (cheap to produce) grass (due to our climate & good soil) which means that our cattle are outside on the land for most of the year.

European countries like France have to keep their animals indoor all year round because of climate (too hot) - so they have to feed them silage (costs to make and store) and grain (world shortage).

Ireland also grows grain - we can export that too

Sure we are well placed to rear cattle. But the high tarriff still exist on imported beef products into the EU and that shows no sign of changing much during the current WTO trade negotations.

thehighground

IRLConor wrote: »

World food shortage or no world food shortage, Brazil and Argentina (and Ireland if we leave) will pay tariffs for selling food into the EU. Domestic production inside the EU will be increased to meet demand long before they'll drop the tariff rates.

Takes a long time to increase production (breed stock, grow stuff etc). Much longer than a 6 weeks lead time generally to come up with a few extra head of cattle

Argentinian & Brazilian beef is not trusted anyway on the continent - some believe it could be riddled with disease (i.e., Foot & Mouth is rife in S.America). Irish food is premium food an what well-off Europeans will want to buy.

thehighground

marco_polo wrote: »

Sure we are well placed to rear cattle. But the high tarriff still exist on imported beef products into the EU and that shows no sign of changing much during the current WTO trade negotations.

But there hasn't been a food shortage! The Brazilians could start selling beef to the Chinese !

Do you not understand what SHORTAGE means (i.e., not enough to go around).

marco_polo

thehighground wrote: »

But there hasn't been a food shortage! The Brazilians could start selling beef to the Chinese !

Do you not understand what SHORTAGE means (i.e., not enough to go around).

I was not aware that there was a chronic shortage of Fillet Steak in developing countries. I thought it was mainly to do with falling supplies of staple foods such as rice and grain. Neither of which we grow or export in signifigant amounts.

thehighground wrote: »

Irish food is premium food an what well-off Europeans will want to buy.

Isn't it such a product because of all those EU regulations on food safety and tracability?

thehighground

marco_polo wrote: »

I was not aware that there was a chronic shortage of Fillet Steak in developing countries. I thought it was mainly to do with falling supplies of staple foods such as rice and grain. Neither of which we grow or export in significant amounts.

Well, you also have milk (comes from cows), cheese (from milk), eggs, chickens (I think Thailand has cornered the EU chicken market though). Some might think barley is a staple food as its used for malting. As regards grain, if you want cows (for milk, beef, cheese) etc. European farmers have to use it a good bit. On our family farm, we grow grain to feed to our own cattle & sheep in the winter when grass is in short supply, then we sell animals.[/QUOTE]

Isn't it such a product because of all those EU regulations on food safety and tracability?

Yep, we've got a good reputation for food in Europe and have been very successful marketing that message. Shouldn't loose that image by leaving the EU.

marco_polo

thehighground wrote: »

Well, you also have milk (comes from cows), cheese (from milk), eggs, chickens (I think Thailand has cornered the EU chicken market though). Some might think barley is a staple food as its used for malting. As regards grain, if you want cows (for milk, beef, cheese) etc. European farmers have to use it a good bit. On our family farm, we grow grain to feed to our own cattle & sheep in the winter when grass is in short supply, then we sell animals.

Yep, we've got a good reputation for food in Europe and have been very successful marketing that message. Shouldn't loose that image by leaving the EU.

All agricultural imports into the EU from non EU countries including EEA countries are subject to tariffs averaging in the range from 18% to 30 %. The whole point of the Common Agricultural Policy is subsidising of domestic EU agriculture and the protection of domestic agricultural markets through the use of high Tariffs. Our goods will cost alot more, hence our agricultural exports will plummet.

Are you seriously suggesting that they will make an exception for Ireland if we join the EEA or go it alone?

The Corinthian

thehighground wrote: »

You don't get it, do you? There is a world food shortage! Brazil, Argentina or Ireland will not be paying any tarifs to sell beef into (highly populated/industrialised) Europe. They will be competing on a level playing field though as regards compliance.

Did you read this in a science fiction novel or do you have any research to back this up?

thehighground

The Corinthian wrote: »

Did you read this in a science fiction novel or do you have any research to back this up?

Mostl to do with climate changes. Just put 'world food shortage' into google

Most compelling evidence is that the IFA have issued statements about how positive the future of Irish farming is, now that there is a food shortage. When were the farmers not complaining about something?

Article from Telegraph here for a start:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/04/22/scifood122.xml&page=1

thehighground

marco_polo wrote: »

All agricultural imports into the EU from non EU countries including EEA countries are subject to tariffs averaging in the range from 18% to 30 %. The whole point of the Common Agricultural Policy is subsidising of domestic EU agriculture and the protection of domestic agricultural markets through the use of high Tariffs. Our goods will cost alot more, hence our agricultural exports will plummet.

Are you seriously suggesting that they will make an exception for Ireland if we join the EEA or go it alone?

Yep. Does Norway have to pay a levy on selling oil into the EU. Armies (workers) march on their stomachs!

The Corinthian

marco_polo wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that they will make an exception for Ireland if we join the EEA or go it alone?

At this stage the economic arguments for leaving the EU are becoming speculative to the point of pure fantasy.

When are people are going to understand that the question of EU membership is not really being argued on a basis of economic well-being. Eurosceptics like thehighground are actually not all that bothered about economics. If we go back to an 1980's economy, then that's an acceptable price for them. The main thing is 'independence' from all those foreign types.

The Corinthian

thehighground wrote: »

Mostl to do with climate changes. Just put 'world food shortage' into google

Then it must be true... :rolleyes:

thehighground

The Corinthian wrote: »

Then it must be true... :rolleyes:

Well, its up to you to select whether you would find what shows up a reputable source If you can't figure that one out, maybe having access to the internet wouldn't be the best thing for someone like you.

And your other post - can't anwer any serious questions can you? At least Marco & sink make an effort!

marco_polo

thehighground wrote: »

Mostl to do with climate changes. Just put 'world food shortage' into google

Most compelling evidence is that the IFA have issued statements about how positive the future of Irish farming is, now that there is a food shortage. When were the farmers not complaining about something?

Article from Telegraph here for a start:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/04/22/scifood122.xml&page=1

Perhaps because we are in the EU already and we have a large potential market for our goods and services that is wholy dependant on our membership of the EU.

Do you accept that the EU levy extremely high tariffs on argiculture good?
By comparison the tariffs are minimal on industrial imports.

Again that Telegraph article is mainly about grain crops and rice.

thehighground wrote: »

Yep. Does Norway have to pay a levy on selling oil into the EU. Armies (workers) march on their stomachs!

Apples and Oranges. We are not talking about oil as unlike agriculture, there is no real oil industry that we have an interest in protecting.

You vastly overstate the importance of our agricultural sector to the EU food supply chain.

thehighground

marco_polo wrote: »

Perhaps because we are in the EU already and we have a large potential market for our goods and services that is wholy dependant on our membership of the EU.

Do you accept that the EU levy extremely high tariffs on argiculture good?
By comparison the tariffs are minimal on industrial imports.

Apples and Oranges. We are not talking about oil as unlike agriculture, there is no real oil industry that we have an interest in protecting.
You are vastly overstate the importance of our agricultural sector to the EU.

No its not. It depends on supply and demand.Most of our food is exported to the UK (about 50%). The UK can't grow enough food to feed themselves. If they don't buy from Ireland, who is as handy to buy from. (How will the cost of oil affect shipping costs?) That is what will determine any 'tarif'.

I'm don't mean to overstate the importance of the agricultural sector to the EU - all I'm saying is that the EU needs food and are unlikely to slap any tarifs or levys because they need food, so that export market is likely to be unaffected.

O'Morris

The Corinthian wrote: »

f we go back to an 1980's economy, then that's an acceptable price for them.

But weren't we in the EU back in the 1980s? Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that we'd go back to a 1960s economy?

thehighground

Maro-Polo: Again that Telegraph article is mainly about grain crops and rice.

Food chain - you need grain to feed chickens, cattle, pigs, sheep, cows, etc. etc. as well as for making bread and beer.

marco_polo

thehighground wrote: »

No its not. It depends on supply and demand.Most of our food is exported to the UK (about 50%). The UK can't grow enough food to feed themselves. If they don't buy from Ireland, who is as handy to buy from. (How will the cost of oil affect shipping costs?) That is what will determine any 'tarif'.

I'm don't mean to overstate the importance of the agricultural sector to the EU - all I'm saying is that the EU needs food and are unlikely to slap any tarifs or levys because they need food, so that export market is likely to be unaffected.

The UK cannot negotiate agricultural tarrifs by itself. To the best of my knowledge agricultural tarrifs for all countries exporting food to the EU are set at WTO level of which the EU is negotiating party. I don't know of any special mechanism outside of the WTO framework by which the EU make a special arrangement with Ireland to drop those tariffs. There would certainly be no precedent for such an arragnement because even EFTA and EEA members have to pay tarrifs on agricultural exports to the EU.

Also most of these countries such as Switzerland and Norway have agricultural sectors that are underpinned by high subsities and based on principals of self sustinance. They are not export driven to anything like the same degree as Ireland agricultural sector.

djpbarry

thehighground wrote: »

There is a world food shortage! Brazil, Argentina or Ireland will not be paying any tarifs to sell beef into (highly populated/industrialised) Europe.

They will for the foreseeable future.

thehighground wrote: »

Ireland competes in that we have a plentiful supply of (cheap to produce) grass (due to our climate & good soil) which means that our cattle are outside on the land for most of the year.

As opposed to Argentina? The Argentinean climate is ideal for beef farming.

thehighground wrote: »

Argentinian & Brazilian beef is not trusted anyway on the continent...

Isn't it? In 2006, almost three-quarters of all Brazilian raw beef were exported to the EU.

thehighground wrote: »

Irish food is premium food an what well-off Europeans will want to buy.

What do you mean "will"? You mean Europeans will want to buy more Irish beef when there's a tariff slapped on it? That doesn't make any sense.

Besides, you've been harping on about food shortages and now you're talking about "well-off Europeans"?

djpbarry

thehighground wrote: »

...all I'm saying is that the EU needs food and are unlikely to slap any tarifs or levys because they need food...

Even if that were the case, we'd be competing on a level playing field with the likes of the South Americans and Australians. With the high costs associated with farming in Ireland, there's simply no way we’ll win that fight.

marco_polo

thehighground wrote: »

Food chain - you need grain to feed chickens, cattle, pigs, sheep, cows, etc. etc. as well as for making bread and beer.

Yes but we are not going to solve the grains world supply problems or make any signifigant contributation to it.

We mainly produce beef and dairy products. Dairy is are consided to be a sensitive product so imports tariffs EU are even higher than the average argricultural tariff, in addition all EU dairy farmers are heavily subsidised by the EU to the tune of billions per year and we would lose our slice of this action if we were outside the EU.

The Corinthian

thehighground wrote: »

Well, its up to you to select whether you would find what shows up a reputable source If you can't figure that one out, maybe having access to the internet wouldn't be the best thing for someone like you.

It's up to you to back up your arguments, not me. If you've not figured that out then perhaps you should review your own use of the Internet.

And your other post - can't anwer any serious questions can you? At least Marco & sink make an effort!

I happily made an effort earlier in this thread until you decided you didn't like to respond to some of my arguments and decided you were going to ignore me. So, do us all a favour and spare us your revisionist BS.

O'Morris

One thing to remember about tariffs is that they work both ways. If we have to pay tariffs on agricultural exports we'll also be able to generate some revenue from the tariffs that we can impose on foreign imports. Maybe the money generated from the import tariffs can be used to cover some of the costs of exporting.

How high are the tariffs currently on agricultural imports to the EU and by how much are they set to fall over the next few years?

marco_polo

O'Morris wrote: »

One thing to remember about tariffs is that they work both ways. If we have to pay tariffs on agricultural exports we'll also be able to generate some revenue from the tariffs that we can impose on foreign imports. Maybe the money generated from the import tariffs can be used to cover some of the costs of exporting.

How high are the tariffs currently on agricultural imports to the EU and by how much are they set to fall over the next few years?

I have seen figures suggesting the average at about 23% at the moment but are due to go down to roughly 12% or so if the WTO talks go well and the EU get what they want out of the talks. There are certain 'sensitive' areas that attract substantially higher tariffs ( most dairy product are included in these) and other which attract lower tariffs.

I am still looking for more detailed information on the precise tariffs.

Ironically irish farmers are very worried about these tariff reductions, little do they know it will be to their benifit soon if some people got their way .

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/2008/0531/farmbusiness/business/eu&government.shtml

thehighground

marco_polo wrote: »

The UK cannot negotiate agricultural tarrifs by itself. To the best of my knowledge agricultural tarrifs for all countries exporting food to the EU are set at WTO level of which the EU is negotiating party. I don't know of any special mechanism outside of the WTO framework by which the EU make a special arrangement with Ireland to drop those tariffs. There would certainly be no precedent for such an arragnement because even EFTA and EEA members have to pay tarrifs on agricultural exports to the EU.

Also most of these countries such as Switzerland and Norway have agricultural sectors that are underpinned by high subsities and based on principals of self sustinance. They are not export driven to anything like the same degree as Ireland agricultural sector.

The EU do the negotiating for Ireland. Peter Mandelson is the Commissioner. Irish farmers are very unhappy with that because Britain (as a big food importer) always went for cheap food.

But Irish farmers are much happier now, because Sarkozy had a go at Mandelson last week because cheap food is not in the interests of France either.

Switzerland & Norway don't exactly have the climate or terrain (both mountaineous) for food production.

thehighground

djpbarry wrote: »

The Argentinean climate is ideal for beef farming.

But their cattle are meant to be riddled with disease (foot & mouth in particular). As for all the other problems like mad cow disease etc. There is no control over use of harmones etc. either. Its a third world country![/QUOTE]

Isn't it? In 2006, almost three-quarters of all Brazilian raw beef were exported to the EU.

Yes, how does that happen, I wonder? (relationship with Portugal perhaps) ? Maybe as Ireland is a former colony of the UK, we'd have a special relationship with them

What do you mean "will"? You mean Europeans will want to buy more Irish beef when there's a tariff slapped on it? That doesn't make any sense.

If you have a shortage of something - take for example fuel - the Irish Gov. might reducing the tax on fuel because it has got so expensive (but they won't on fuel for environmental reasons). If there is a shortage of beef (it will get expensive) they might reduce the 'tax' (tarif) on it.

Back in 2001 during the Food & Mouth, Irish farmers made a killing on sheep because there was a shortage in the UK (you do remember all those pyres of burning carcasses, don't you).

Besides, you've been harping on about food shortages and now you're talking about "well-off Europeans"?

In comparison to say Indians, Europeans are well off and want (and can afford) good food (i.e., they don't want food that good be riddled with disease, drugs, modified etc that might be produced in third world countries with no conrols).

marco_polo

thehighground wrote: »

The EU do the negotiating for Ireland. Peter Mandelson is the Commissioner. Irish farmers are very unhappy with that because Britain (as a big food importer) always went for cheap food.

But Irish farmers are much happier now, because Sarkozy had a go at Mandelson last week because cheap food is not in the interests of France either.

Switzerland & Norway don't exactly have the climate or terrain (both mountaineous) for food production.

I am well aware the EU does our negotiating I was still in hypothetical not in the EU mode.

marco_polo

thehighground wrote: »

But their cattle are meant to be riddled with disease (foot & mouth in particular). As for all the other problems like mad cow disease etc. There is no control over use of harmones etc. either. Its a third world country!



Yes, how does that happen, I wonder? (relationship with Portugal perhaps) ? Maybe as Ireland is a former colony of the UK, we'd have a special relationship with them



If you have a shortage of something - take for example fuel - the Irish Gov. might reducing the tax on fuel because it has got so expensive (but they won't on fuel for environmental reasons). If there is a shortage of beef (it will get expensive) they might reduce the 'tax' (tarif) on it.

Back in 2001 during the Food & Mouth, Irish farmers made a killing on sheep because there was a shortage in the UK (you do remember all those pyres of burning carcasses, don't you).



In comparison to say Indians, Europeans are well off and want (and can afford) good food (i.e., they don't want food that good be riddled with disease, drugs, modified etc that might be produced in third world countries with no conrols).

Brazil export so much Beef because it is still competitively priced even after the tariffs are included. How do you think we would fare against them on a level playing pitch?

thehighground

djpbarry wrote: »

Even if that were the case, we'd be competing on a level playing field with the likes of the South Americans and Australians. With the high costs associated with farming in Ireland, there's simply no way we’ll win that fight.

You seem to forget the heavy transportation costs from the southern hemisphere and the fact it will probably be all frozen. South American food is problematic because of disease, something the EU is very particular about.

Australia is nearly all desert. Wouldn't be relying on them for much food (I worked on a farm in Australia for a while). Only produce from Aus you see here is wine.

thehighground

marco_polo wrote: »

Yes but we are not going to solve the grains world supply problems or make any signifigant contributation to it.

We mainly produce beef and dairy products. Dairy is are consided to be a sensitive product so imports tariffs EU are even higher than the average argricultural tariff, in addition all EU dairy farmers are heavily subsidised by the EU to the tune of billions per year and we would lose our slice of this action if we were outside the EU.

No, we are not going to solve food shortages - but, we are going to find it easy enough to sell food - so we can up production and provide more jobs in processing factories etc.

As for EU dairy farmers being heavily subsidised - ah, Ireland is now a net contributor (which means we are subsidising EU countries now less well off than ourselves) which we won't have to do, so we will be able to put that money into building roads, developing other industries, whatever.