why so afraid to go it alone

VoidStarNull

Personnally I am not afraid of going it alone, but I think that Ireland has a lot to offer to the EU and it would be a dreadful shame if we decided to go and hide under a rock. We should be involved, making our contribution and letting others in the EU and in the world know our views. It may be tough sometimes to debate with others who don't agree with you, but it's better than running away and hiding in the corner.

murphaph

sink wrote: »

Em, the EEA is the European Economic Area aka the common market. Both Norway and Switzerland are members of the EEA but on slightly different terms. They still can not govern themselves in regards to trade and other areas to do with the common market. In return they don't have to turn up for meetings in Brussels were the decisions are made, yet they still have to abide by alot of those decisions.

Why do they put up with this situation? I mean, why tolerate these negatives-there must be some advantage for them?

sink

murphaph wrote: »

Why do they put up with this situation? I mean, why tolerate these negatives-there must be some advantage for them?

They don't see the bigger picture like alot of Irish. They are happy with the appearence of independence, the fact that they rely on their EU trading partners for jobs, security and even legislation does not seem to dawn on them. Same goes for people over here calling on Ireland to withdraw from the EU and just remain part of the common market. They don't realise that we would be giving up even more power than we would gain as we would just loose our seats at the decision making table while still having to implement most of the laws.

marco_polo

murphaph wrote: »

Why do they put up with this situation? I mean, why tolerate these negatives-there must be some advantage for them?

Norway - Lots of oil and upwards of 180bn of cash reserves that they have no idea how to spend.

Switzerland - A major proportion of the worlds finance locked up in their highly secretive financial system, that is probably incompatible with EU law currently.

Ireland - Not a whole lot really

hmmm

marco_polo wrote: »

Norway - Lots of oil and upwards of 180bn of cash reserves that they have no idea how to spend.

Switzerland - A major proportion of the worlds finance locked up in their highly secretive financial system, that is probably incompatible with EU law currently.

Ireland - Not a whole lot really

Summed it up perfectly. If we want access to the EU markets after having left the EU, they will require us to implement most EU rules. Otherwise it would be unfair competition for EU based producers who would have to implement the rules. We would lose access to the EU decision making table and would not be part of EU negotiating teams at the world table (e.g. farmers would not have a say at the WTO talks).

On top of that we would be required to contribute to the EU budget and we would lose EU funding (e.g. farmers again).

Essentially we would be in the same position we are now for the most part and it would cost us several billion euros a year.

democrates

hmmm wrote: »

Summed it up perfectly. If we want access to the EU markets after having left the EU, they will require us to implement most EU rules. Otherwise it would be unfair competition for EU based producers who would have to implement the rules. We would lose access to the EU decision making table and would not be part of EU negotiating teams at the world table (e.g. farmers would not have a say at the WTO talks).

On top of that we would be required to contribute to the EU budget and we would lose EU funding (e.g. farmers again).

Essentially we would be in the same position we are now for the most part and it would cost us several billion euros a year.

How does that proposal work again, we step outside of decision-making but still pay into the budget, I feel a no vote coming on. Is that tea I smell, no taxation without representation would be the most basic requirement.

There's no way the Swiss are going to join the EU until such time as it passes the democracy test, let alone is it getting no closer, it's getting further away from direct citizen say.

As for WTO talks, the Doha round while not dead is being wheeled around a nursing home since for the first time in history poor countries have had the audacity to insist on a deal with some nod in the direction of fairness, and have evaded the usual green room divide and conquor tactics. The food price crisis and rise of protectionism is more likely to stall it further than add impetus.

But looking ahead to someday, if we don't have an agreement with the EU on a WTO position, so what, we already represent ourselves being full WTO members since 1995. As others have pointed out, we've rarely been isolated on an issue in Europe, including farming, it's likely the EU position at WTO talks is the best we could have achieved anyway, but ultimately we still get to vote our own way at WTO as always.

Also recall that just recently our territorial waters expanded substantially over the Atlantic continental shelf, we have a strong card to play on access for fishing and it's as yet unknown how much oil, gas, and other goodies lie out there.

As for access to EU markets, that's a two-way street. On trade it is asymmetric of course, on labour a mirrored curve. The latter gives us plenty of support from various EU members to do a deal on the former.

This is by no means a complete list of the cards in our hand, and the trump is that we can offer to step back and allow Lisbon ratification proceed. The other 26 members' citizens may not want it and don't seem sufficiently outraged to take to the streets to stop it, but their politicians certainly do. They'll do a deal to get their hands on the chalice of power they've been chasing for so long, it is tantalisingly close and they can almost touch it.

whitser

very good points there. but i still think that we shouldnt be so relient on the eu. would we realyy crash and burn without the eu? i dont think so. and im certainly not talking about dancing at cross roads, which seems to be the first thing said when anyone talks about independence from the eu. just cos i feel that ireland is quite capable of standing on its own doesnt mean i want a return to devs ways. also in a world facing a food shortage we have rich seas and land that produces good food. and theres plenty of gas out there otherwise shell wouldnt be out there,imo.

The Corinthian

Has anyone ever bought Swiss agricultural goods in the EU? Seriously, any attempt to compare Switzerland (or even Norway with its oil-funded economy) is frankly idiotic. Indeed, if we realistically want to compare ourselves to the Swiss, we should begin having an industrial revolution first. Indeed, we might actually try that whole neutrality thing too - the Swiss refused air space access to US military flights, as opposed to our facilitating them in Shannon.

I suspect that many of those who are suggesting 'going it alone' are too young to remember Ireland before the nineties. It was ****. We'd tried the whole 'going it alone' thing since the Irish Free State and it took us an odd 70 years to realize what a dumb idea it really was. I really cannot describe well enough what a hand-to-mouth existence we had here, and it's not as if we all became more industrious thanks to the Celtic Tiger - it's just that the industrious ones stopped emigrating.

I've just never really understood this isolationist, xenophobic, maidens-at-the-crossroads nationalism you get in Ireland, especially given it's more than happy to ruin the lives of everyone on principle alone. Maybe Brendan Behan was right when he suggested that "other people have a nationality. The Irish and the Jews have a psychosis."

whitser

does that mean we have to swallow everthing from the eu elite? the eu we joined in the 70's is not what we are in now,imo. i feel its slowly advancing towards an eu super state, a united states of europe and i dont want to be in that. the total lack of respect for our referendum result shows the contempt the eu elite have for the irish people. we were asked to vote,we said no and they dont give a fcuk.

ionix5891

whitser wrote: »

does that mean we have to swallow everthing from the eu elite? the eu we joined in the 70's is not what we are in now,imo. i feel its slowly advancing towards an eu super state, a united states of europe and i dont want to be in that. the total lack of respect for our referendum result shows the contempt the eu elite have for the irish people. we were asked to vote,we said no and they dont give a fcuk.

our representatives gave out at the french and the dutch too when they voted No and we kept going ahead

we are not different than the rest so quit moaning and take your tinfoil hat off

whitser

why if you question the eu are you in favour of dancing at cross roads dev style ireland?
do people really think that its the eu or bust

O'Morris

The Corinthian wrote: »

I suspect that many of those who are suggesting 'going it alone' are too young to remember Ireland before the nineties.

Why do you say before the nineties? Wouldn't it be more accurate to say before the seventies?

It was ****. We'd tried the whole 'going it alone' thing since the Irish Free State and it took us an odd 70 years to realize what a dumb idea it really was.

There are still a few of die-hard Irish nationalists knocking around. Many of us would like to give it just one last shot.

I really cannot describe well enough what a hand-to-mouth existence we had here, and it's not as if we all became more industrious thanks to the Celtic Tiger - it's just that the industrious ones stopped emigrating.

I'm sure it was very bad. And I'm sure it would be very bad if we tried to repeat the economic policies of those times. That's why nobody is advocating that we scrap our low corporation tax or that we withdraw from the common market with the EU.

The Corinthian

whitser wrote: »

does that mean we have to swallow everthing from the eu elite?

The topic is "why so afraid to go it alone" - are you suggesting that the only alternative to going it alone is "to swallow everything from the EU elite"?

we were asked to vote,we said no and they dont give a fcuk.

Actually we were not asked to vote.

The reality is that how the EU operates at present is via treaties because it is still a collection of independent countries. That means that agreements are obtuse and pushed through by unelected diplomats and the like.

Think that's undemocratic? Fair enough. How about we pass power to the European parliament where we have democratically elected representatives then? (Cue Eurosceptics doing a U-turn on the democracy argument and bleating about sovereignty).

democrates

The Corinthian wrote: »

Has anyone ever bought Swiss agricultural goods in the EU?

Eh, Nestle ring any bells?

In fairness, they are one Swiss example which support the case that going too far with direct democracy may lead to selfishness. Why do Swiss citizens not stop Nestle ruining the lives of third world mothers with baby milk formula, why allow Syngentas' GM escapades, or the banks hoarding looted Jewish gold and providing facilities to international criminals. Self preservation is one thing and one can appreciate their historical fears, but profiting from the misery of others is quite another.

The Corinthian wrote: »

I suspect that many of those who are suggesting 'going it alone' are too young to remember Ireland before the nineties. It was ****. We'd tried the whole 'going it alone' thing since the Irish Free State and it took us an odd 70 years to realize what a dumb idea it really was. I really cannot describe well enough what a hand-to-mouth existence we had here, and it's not as if we all became more industrious thanks to the Celtic Tiger - it's just that the industrious ones stopped emigrating.

I remember it well, no jobs, the emigration brain drain, Charvais Charlie saying "tighten your belts", the Boomtown Rats summed it up fairly in "Banana Republic".

But I haven't heard anyone propose a return to Dev's protectionist policies, we're one of the most open economies in the world and in or out of the EU we can keep on trading.

The Corinthian wrote: »

I've just never really understood this isolationist, xenophobic, maidens-at-the-crossroads nationalism you get in Ireland, especially given it's more than happy to ruin the lives of everyone on principle alone. Maybe Brendan Behan was right when he suggested that "other people have a nationality. The Irish and the Jews have a psychosis."

Again I think that's the position of a tiny minority.

Scofflaw

This is by no means a complete list of the cards in our hand, and the trump is that we can offer to step back and allow Lisbon ratification proceed. The other 26 members' citizens may not want it and don't seem sufficiently outraged to take to the streets to stop it, but their politicians certainly do. They'll do a deal to get their hands on the chalice of power they've been chasing for so long, it is tantalisingly close and they can almost touch it.

What chalice of power? New QMV areas? A couple of new competences? The Presidency of the Council of Europe?

I swear, I remain completely baffled by the hysteria over Lisbon. What is so exciting about this Treaty? Have people never given the EU competences before? Never moved an area from unanimity to QMV before?

What is so exciting about Lisbon?

baffled,
Scofflaw

whitser

i just feel that ireland is quite capable of trading and doing well on its own. i dont like the direction the eu is going and i for one would rather out.

hmmm

democrates wrote: »

But I haven't heard anyone propose a return to Dev's protectionist policies, we're one of the most open economies in the world and in or out of the EU we can keep on trading.

Not without access to markets. For a small trading nation access to markets is everything. If we pull out of the EU, we have to negotiate access and pay for the privilege.

Besides which, if we were restricted in terms of access or if we had export restrictions placed on us by recipients of our produce, FDI would all but dry up. Why would Intel or any other multinational want to open a plant here if they could not be guaranteed access to EU markets?

If maintaining our employment and economic wellbeing is important, to even contemplate this as an option is madness.

ionix5891

whitser wrote: »

i just feel that ireland is quite capable of trading and doing well on its own. i dont like the direction the eu is going and i for one would rather out.

Do you own a business? do you have people employed?? Do you pay corporate and other taxes??? well i do and i find this situation highly disturbing

Europe will do fine without Ireland but whether Ireland will do fine without Europe is questionable since our economy and jobs are so tightly coupled

The Corinthian

democrates wrote: »

Eh, Nestle ring any bells?

What Swiss agricultural goods do they export to the EU? Beef? Corn? Sugar?

Switzerland excels at exporting giffen goods (chocolate, pharmaceuticals, watches, etc). Full stop.

But I haven't heard anyone propose a return to Dev's protectionist policies, we're one of the most open economies in the world and in or out of the EU we can keep on trading.

I don't think you understand how international trade works. We don't need to be protectionist to end up with a protectionist economy.

Scofflaw

I find it hard to imagine a worse position for the Irish economy than sitting outside the EU tariff wall.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The Corinthian

ionix5891 wrote: »

Europe will do fine without Ireland but whether Ireland will do fine without Europe is questionable since our economy and jobs are so tightly coupled

This is one of the things that is being forgotten; Ireland has an almost purely serviced based economy. Outside of agriculture we have a negligible level of manufacture. So ask yourselves, why would companies want to operate within Ireland (thus employing people)? Maybe because we are in a big market? Take that out of the equation and why would they want to operate here?

Low taxes? What's the use of a tax break if you're not turning a profit?

O'Morris

Scofflaw wrote: »

I find it hard to imagine a worse position for the Irish economy than sitting outside the EU tariff wall.

I agree but I think you're attacking a straw man if you think anyone wants the Irish economy outside of the EU tariff wall. I've never heard anyone seriously suggest that being in the common market isn't good for us or that it would be in our interests to be out of it. The most that anyone is really suggesting is that we consider the possibility of operating as an independent country within the common market, the same as Norway or Iceland or Switzerland. There are alternatives to being in the EU.

The Corinthian wrote:

So ask yourselves, why would companies want to operate within Ireland (thus employing people)?

The fact that we speak English has always been cited as an important pull factor.

hmmm

O'Morris wrote: »

The most that anyone is really suggesting is that we consider the possibility of operating as an independent country within the common market, the same as Norway or Iceland or Switzerland. There are alternatives to being in the EU.

And as others have pointed out, Norway, Switzerland etc have to pay the EU for access, they get no EU funds (CAP or Structural) and they have to implement most EU laws anyway with no say in the design of those laws.

What possible benefit is this to Ireland?

marco_polo

O'Morris wrote: »

I agree but I think you're attacking a straw man if you think anyone wants the Irish economy outside of the EU tariff wall. I've never heard anyone seriously suggest that being in the common market isn't good for us or that it would be in our interests to be out of it. The most that anyone is really suggesting is that we consider the possibility of operating as an independent country within the common market, the same as Norway or Iceland or Switzerland. There are alternatives to being in the EU.



The fact that we speak English has always been cited as an important pull factor.

There is would also be the major problem of withdrawing from the eurozone and ECB in the case of moving back to something like EEA membership. Unless EU membership is not an absolute rule for joining the Eurozone, but I am pretty sure that it is. (I know there are some states such as Kosovo and Montenagro that do use the actual physical euro currency, but they are not officially in the eurozone itself)

The Corinthian

O'Morris wrote: »

The fact that we speak English has always been cited as an important pull factor.

Not as attractive as the fact that we are members of the EU and thus have direct and open access to that market, otherwise US companies would stay at home - where oddly enough they also speak English.

democrates

Scofflaw wrote: »

What chalice of power? New QMV areas? A couple of new competences? The Presidency of the Council of Europe?

I swear, I remain completely baffled by the hysteria over Lisbon. What is so exciting about this Treaty? Have people never given the EU competences before? Never moved an area from unanimity to QMV before?

What is so exciting about Lisbon?

baffled,
Scofflaw

In fairness the italicised words describing extreme emotions are yours .

You make a fair point behind it though, why now, why Lisbon. I can only speak for myself but Lisbon has been a chance to pause for thought and look at the wider picture from a long term perspective. Hence issues being discussed that are the status quo, predating Lisbon, a lot of us think we've gone too far already (speaking for others now based on posts and meatspace discourse).

democrates

hmmm wrote: »

Not without access to markets. For a small trading nation access to markets is everything. If we pull out of the EU, we have to negotiate access and pay for the privilege.

Besides which, if we were restricted in terms of access or if we had export restrictions placed on us by recipients of our produce, FDI would all but dry up. Why would Intel or any other multinational want to open a plant here if they could not be guaranteed access to EU markets?

If maintaining our employment and economic wellbeing is important, to even contemplate this as an option is madness.

Exactly why I was outlining the strong negotiating position we're in right now holding what looks like will be a sole veto. Obviously we'd negotiate to retain access to markets and remain in the Eurozone etc. Instead of the worst case surely we'd aim for the best case - all the benefits just with more control over our own jurisdiction.

The Corinthian

democrates wrote: »

Exactly why I was outlining the strong negotiating position we're in right now holding what looks like will be a sole veto. Obviously we'd negotiate to retain access to markets and remain in the Eurozone etc. Instead of the worst case surely we'd aim for the best case - all the benefits just with more control over our own jurisdiction.

Except we'd be bluffing in such a negotiation. We need the EU market a lot more than it needs us, and everyone knows this.

IRLConor

democrates wrote: »

Exactly why I was outlining the strong negotiating position we're in right now holding what looks like will be a sole veto. Obviously we'd negotiate to retain access to markets and remain in the Eurozone etc. Instead of the worst case surely we'd aim for the best case - all the benefits just with more control over our own jurisdiction.

Compare and contrast the following two scenarios:

1. 27 people heading for a night out. 26 want to go to the cinema, 1 wants to go to the pub. Result: the pub-goer gets told "fair enough if you don't want the cinema, but we're going there. Your choice if you want to join us."
2. 27 people heading for a night out. 26 want to go to the cinema, 1 wants to go to the pub. The pub-goer has the keys to the bus. Result: negotiation.

We don't have the keys to the bus. Not even close.


There's absolutely no point in us leaving the EU and staying in the EEA. We'd lose loads of the benefits of EU membership without gaining much.

democrates

The Corinthian wrote: »

What Swiss agricultural goods do they export to the EU? Beef? Corn? Sugar?

Switzerland excels at exporting giffen goods (chocolate, pharmaceuticals, watches, etc). Full stop.

Switzerland has a highly protected agricultural sector but very open trade on industrial goods, amazing what having a choice can do, and they've chosen a system that works for them.

The Corinthian wrote: »

I don't think you understand how international trade works. We don't need to be protectionist to end up with a protectionist economy.

You could assume the worst ok, but there's a case to argue that if we can do business with other nations we'll do business.