why so afraid to go it alone

marco_polo

whitser wrote: »

im not coming from a nationalistic point of view. i feel the eu has been good for ireland and vise versa but i dont want to live in a federal eu. a lot of people feel the same, no vote shows a lot of uncertainty about the direction of the eu. so if ireland doesnt want to be part of that it has to be prepared to make its own way. this is all imo,im not politician. but i've seen that the eu has no respect for ireland by its treatment of our vote and i feel that it simply wants us to do what we're told.

I see nothing in this treaty that creates a federal EU. Also we played a large part in negotiating the treaty with 26 other member states. It is not like someone pulled out a document we had never seen before and said sign this.

whitser wrote: »

also i feel my view point doesnt matter because this treaty will be forced down our necks one way or another and that angers me.
also is it definite that the remaining countries will ratifie this treaty?

It is not certain that the treaty will be ratified at this point but it is looking fairly likely.

hmmm

whitser wrote: »

im not coming from a nationalistic point of view. i feel the eu has been good for ireland and vise versa but i dont want to live in a federal eu.

You don't want to live in an ever closer European Union, I don't want to be poor. If you want to get your message supported you're going to have to be able to explain to people like me why under your plan I won't be waving goodbye to my kids as they get on the boat to emigrate.

democrates

The Corinthian wrote: »

Except we don't do industrial goods and the EU does not need our agricultural ones.

We're the largest exporter of software on the planet. Pharmaceuticals going from strength to strength. High value R&D jobs increasing, in fact the most recent announcement was after the No to the EU, if multinationals believed the doom scenario all the yes side are predicting I'm pretty sure they'd have held off to review their options.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Except we don't have a good hand.

We differ. Todays EU meeting saw speculation that the retention of a commissioner might be on offer prior to a revote on Lisbon. That wouldn't be forthcoming in the absence of us being in a strong position - they're willing to deal.

IRLConor

democrates wrote: »

We're the largest exporter of software on the planet.

Virtually none of that is ours.

That statistic is nonsense. If you re-jig the stats to only count companies who have their primary headquarters here (to give one definition of "Irish") we'd go way down the list.

democrates

whitser wrote: »

also i feel my view point doesnt matter because this treaty will be forced down our necks one way or another and that angers me.
also is it definite that the remaining countries will ratifie this treaty?

The least sure to ratify is the Czech Republic. Right now they're looking at other EU heads meeting the Irish to work something out.

While the Czechs might be tempted to brazen a no for a better deal, it wouldn't work as well for them as the Irish, at least our politicians can blame the citizens and say "look, we need something on the table to get them back on board", whereas a Czech parliamentary no doesn't offer the same level of innocence.

The Corinthian

democrates wrote: »

We're the largest exporter of software on the planet. Pharmaceuticals going from strength to strength.

None of those industries are Irish. They they go where the market is.

High value R&D jobs increasing, in fact the most recent announcement was after the No to the EU, if multinationals believed the doom scenario all the yes side are predicting I'm pretty sure they'd have held off to review their options.

When do you think the decision for that announcement was made? I suggest you look at announcements in the next few months as a more accurate barometer.

We differ. Todays EU meeting saw speculation that the retention of a commissioner might be on offer prior to a revote on Lisbon. That wouldn't be forthcoming in the absence of us being in a strong position - they're willing to deal.

I hope that we do get some concession, although my guess is that it will be more cosmetic than anything and will be designed to allow us to run another referendum. Of course there's no guarantee that there will be any concession - cosmetic or otherwise - and that is where things stand at present.

ionix5891

The Corinthian wrote: »

None of those industries are Irish. They they go where the market is.

+1

me and my company wont be hanging around for too long if Ireland ends up on the wrong side of the fence being isolated and inward looking is not constructive to business

most our partners wont stick around for long either so whether I like it or not I will have to follow my customers

Ireland is very good for business but without they EU there are other places where theres less taxes to pay and less red tape, all my company needs is fast Internet (Ireland doesn't fare well in this department) and brains (all the highly educated people start emigrating again if they cant find good jobs)...

democrates

IRLConor wrote: »

Virtually none of that is ours.

But thanks in part to their presence, our skillset and homegrown software base continues to grow. We must also recognising the quality of third level Ed. and success of incubation facilities, contrasted with the failed attempt to parachute in greatness with Medialab Europe.

Besides, in the long term open source online is continuing to gain ground, we have great connectivity and datacentres, the field is wide open and fortune favours the brave.

IRLConor wrote: »

That statistic is nonsense. If you re-jig the stats to only count companies who have their primary headquarters here (to give one definition of "Irish") we'd go way down the list.

Economic value is the important metric here, surely.

The Corinthian

democrates wrote: »

But thanks in part to their presence, our skillset and homegrown software base continues to grow.

And when they leave? And if we're no longer in the EU they will leave.

Besides, in the long term open source online is continuing to gain ground, we have great connectivity and datacentres, the field is wide open and fortune favours the brave.

Oh dear... we've arrived at fantasy island...

The Corinthian

democrates wrote: »

Economic value is the important metric here, surely.

Not if that value cannot be relied upon if we were to leave the EU. Even Irish multinationals, such as Ryanair and Èlan would be gone in a shot to relocate to London so as to stay within the EU.

O'Morris

The Corinthian wrote: »

And if we're no longer in the EU they will leave.

If we're no longer in the common-market with the EU they will leave.

ionix5891

democrates wrote: »

Besides, in the long term open source online is continuing to gain ground, we have great connectivity and datacentres, the field is wide open and fortune favours the brave.
.

:eek: :rolleyes:

oh man seriously come one if you don't know what you are talking about, don't please don't, thats just so wrong

the infrastructure in Ireland is miles behind what is available in US or on the Continent and is a lot more expensive

you want raw numbers?


our partner datacenter in Chicago ( $6500/month ) offered the following second cluster and we signed on the line last week:
1gbit (both ways) dedicated unmetered bandwidth (300TB a month) from a BGP mix of 10 major backbone providers + 10x q6600/4GB RAM/500GB Sata servers + own private switch + 24x7 support on rebooting and OS re installations + we were customers for over 2 years and the uptime is well above 99.99%!

hosting365 in Dublin, ( €945/month )
2TB a month, 1x Intel Xeon 5140/8GB ram, 150GB drive, 24x7 support



now tell me again how exactly is the IT infrastructure in Ireland cheaper? I will love to get a quote from any company in Dublin that can even come close to the pricing we are getting in the US


EDIT: attached traffic graph for cluster #2, our both clusters almost use as much bandwdith as the Inex in Dublin > https://www.inex.ie/technical/stats

The Corinthian

O'Morris wrote: »

If we're no longer in the common-market with the EU they will leave.

Unless you hadn't noticed that's what we're discussing.

Or are you under the delusion that we can get all the common market stuff without the rest and not suffer any economic impact?

force eleven

marco_polo wrote: »

I see nothing in this treaty that creates a federal EU. Also we played a large part in negotiating the treaty with 26 other member states. It is not like someone pulled out a document we had never seen before and said sign this.



It is not certain that the treaty will be ratified at this point but it is looking fairly likely.

All of these treaties, Amsterdam,Maastricht,Nice,Lisbon et al, are certainly paving the way for a federal EU. It is and has always been EU Integration by degrees, and anyone who denies this is simply wrong. That said, maybe there are many who are happy with this path. I am not. I feel the EU has gone and is going too far towards complete political, economic and judicial union. I do believe we should hold on to most of our autonomy, despite its many flaws.

thehighground

ionix5891 wrote: »

+1

me and my company wont be hanging around for too long if Ireland ends up on the wrong side of the fence being isolated and inward looking is not constructive to business

most our partners wont stick around for long either so whether I like it or not I will have to follow my customers

Ireland is very good for business but without they EU there are other places where theres less taxes to pay and less red tape, all my company needs is fast Internet (Ireland doesn't fare well in this department) and brains (all the highly educated people start emigrating again if they cant find good jobs)...

You do realise that a lot of the red tape has been created by Brussels! Ask any farmer and they will tell you they spend more time filling in forms and compliance than actually farming and how they find it difficult to compete with the Argentinians & Brazilians on beef imports into the EU. (And now that I think of it, how come we can buy Argentinian beef in this country?)

I suggest that apart from fast internet and educated workforce, your company might like to hang around in a country whose government wasn't going to change its mind on its corporate tax rate!

O'Morris

The Corinthian wrote: »

Unless you hadn't noticed that's what we're discussing.

You seem to be confusing leaving the EU for leaving the common market. I think the question is whether we should leave the EU, not leave the common market.

Or are you under the delusion that we can get all the common market stuff without the rest and not suffer any economic impact?

I am

democrates

The Corinthian wrote: »

None of those industries are Irish. They they go where the market is.

Their goods and services go where the market is, production can be elsewhere including remote services.

The Corinthian wrote: »

When do you think the decision for that announcement was made? I suggest you look at announcements in the next few months as a more accurate barometer.

It was on the one o' clock RTE 1 news. And agreed, there's a lot more to come, that's hardly the final word, October is mooted as the time when a formal strategy will be laid down.

The Corinthian wrote: »

I hope that we do get some concession, although my guess is that it will be more cosmetic than anything and will be designed to allow us to run another referendum. Of course there's no guarantee that there will be any concession - cosmetic or otherwise - and that is where things stand at present.

As you said, we'll see what comes out of the mill, but I think you're bang on, Lisbon 2.0 with some icing, Christmas cake come early perhaps.

The toughest nut to crack is the fact that many working class people are concerned for their jobs, even during the tiger highs I heard no shortage of side-swipes at immigrants "taking our jobs", the EU expansion and open border policy are identified as culprits.

It annoyed the hell out of me because with full employment it looked like the whingers were the ones who wouldn't get off their backsides to get properly educated and employed, instead choosing to blame he, she, they, and everyone else on the planet for their predicament, everyone but themselves.

With prices going up accross the board, Trichet about to put the boot into mortgage strugglers, more credit woes with sub-prime contagion, and unemployment rising, we have the perfect storm for another no.

ejmaztec

thehighground wrote: »

I suggest that apart from fast internet and educated workforce, your company might like to hang around in a country whose government wasn't going to change its mind on its corporate tax rate!

Would the government be able to afford to continue with such generosity?

IRLConor

democrates wrote: »

But thanks in part to their presence, our skillset and homegrown software base continues to grow. We must also recognising the quality of third level Ed. and success of incubation facilities, contrasted with the failed attempt to parachute in greatness with Medialab Europe.

Yes, our homegrown software industry continues to grow. I'm all for that, it's more job opportunities for me.

The problem is that it's not big enough to support the Irish economy. If you remove all of the value provided by companies that would leave if Ireland left the EU/EEA there's a big hole in our economy that would take years if not decades to fill. I dunno about you, but I don't fancy sticking around to fill that hole.

democrates wrote: »

Besides, in the long term open source online is continuing to gain ground, we have great connectivity and datacentres, the field is wide open and fortune favours the brave.

:eek: Tell me you don't work anywhere near the software industry? (And if you do, please let me know what you're smoking.)

democrates wrote: »

Economic value is the important metric here, surely.

Well, I'd argue that economic value that would remain in Ireland if we leave the EU/EEA is the most important metric for this discussion.

IRLConor

O'Morris wrote: »

You seem to be confusing leaving the EU for leaving the common market. I think the question is whether we should leave the EU, not leave the common market.

If we leave the EU but not the common market then we'd end up doing what the EEA members do and implement most of their laws without getting a say in them. Democratic deficit anyone?

The Corinthian

O'Morris wrote: »

You seem to be confusing leaving the EU for leaving the common market. I think the question is whether we should leave the EU, not leave the common market.

The common market ceases with the Lisbon treaty. If we choose to leave the EU there is no common market to stay in and our only options are a separate trade agreement (and there are no guarantees on this) or joining EFTA/EEA.

I am

And as I said this is a delusion.

thehighground

force eleven wrote: »

All of these treaties, Amsterdam,Maastricht,Nice,Lisbon et al, are certainly paving the way for a federal EU. It is and has always been EU Integration by degrees, and anyone who denies this is simply wrong. That said, maybe there are many who are happy with this path. I am not. I feel the EU has gone and is going too far towards complete political, economic and judicial union. I do believe we should hold on to most of our autonomy, despite its many flaws.

+ 1.

Germany & France were at the heart of 2 world wars in Europe in the last 100 years. They have some cheek lecturing us on how 'ungrateful' we are. The irony of the whole thing really - they destroyed Europe, the Americans saved it (along with the Brits & Russians) and the Americans put their hands in their pockets with Marshall Aid to set them up and then they go on and lecture us on being 'ungrateful'. The French & the Germans have some neck!

Interesting point also made about the Irish troops in Chad - while the French were castigating the Irish people last Sat, the EU (Irish) army were being fired on in Chad - another country messed up by the colonials.

The Corinthian

democrates wrote: »

Their goods and services go where the market is, production can be elsewhere including remote services.

Sorry, but that's not how international trade works. They would be treated as coming from outside the EU and thus subject to the relevant trade restrictions.

democrates

The Corinthian wrote: »

Not if that value cannot be relied upon if we were to leave the EU. Even Irish multinationals, such as Ryanair and Èlan would be gone in a shot to relocate to London so as to stay within the EU.

They're here for 12.5% corp. tax and access to EU markets, not because we're politically hitched. It remains open to speculation how well market access could be secured in a step-back from the EU deal.

The Corinthian

thehighground wrote: »

Germany & France were at the heart of 2 world wars in Europe in the last 100 years. They have some cheek lecturing us on how 'ungrateful' we are. The irony of the whole thing really - they destroyed Europe, the Americans saved it (along with the Brits & Russians) and the Americans put their hands in their pockets with Marshall Aid to set them up and then they go on and lecture us on being 'ungrateful'. The French & the Germans have some neck!

Interesting point also made about the Irish troops in Chad - while the French were castigating the Irish people last Sat, the EU (Irish) army were being fired on in Chad - another country messed up by the colonials.

More jingoism and petty nationalism.

Might work better than economic arguments though?

ionix5891

thehighground wrote: »

You do realise that a lot of the red tape has been created by Brussels! Ask any farmer and they will tell you they spend more time filling in forms and compliance than actually farming and how they find it difficult to compete with the Argentinians & Brazilians on beef imports into the EU. (And now that I think of it, how come we can buy Argentinian beef in this country?)

these are the same farmers who get paid not to farm? come one i wish i got paid by the EU not to do my job, should be interesting where they could sell their produce if Ireland is outside the EU. I am not happy at all that 75% of the EU budget goes to the farmers, not at all

and ironically the Lisbon treaty would have cut down on the bureaucracy

thehighground wrote: »

I suggest that apart from fast internet and educated workforce, your company might like to hang around in a country whose government wasn't going to change its mind on its corporate tax rate!

We were repeatedly told that the EU has no say in our corporate tax rate, why do you think almost every business organization would support this treaty if "It would cost you" banners were correct?

and an increased corporate tax would be the least of my worries if "we go alone"

The Corinthian

democrates wrote: »

It remains open to speculation how well market access could be secured in a step-back from the EU deal.

Not that open, TBH. The business community has already made it's views known on the subject and they're in a better position to speculate the effect than you.

whitser

The Corinthian wrote: »

That's called a nationalist point of view.

You're also not an economist.

i never said i was. i just feel that the attitude if eu leaders towards ireland has proven to me that they have no respect for our mandate any vetos we ever get will be meaningless and that we either just do as we're told or fcuk off. so why is making our own way totally off the chart? if we have no chance without the eu why bother with referendums etc.. why not just say ok your the boss.
the eu was supposed to be about everyone agreeing or nothing but it seems to have lost that,now its agree or shift.

thehighground

ejmaztec wrote: »

Would the government be able to afford to continue with such generosity?

There is a reason why the Goverment are being 'generous' as you call it. A low tax economy is one of the reasons why we are as prosperous as we are now - why should our policy change, particularly when we know it works.

democrates

ionix5891 wrote: »

:eek: :rolleyes:

oh man seriously come one if you don't know what you are talking about, don't please don't, thats just so wrong

the infrastructure in Ireland is miles behind what is available in US or on the Continent and is a lot more expensive

you want raw numbers?


our partner datacenter in Chicago ( $6500/month ) offered the following second cluster and we signed on the line last week:
1gbit (both ways) dedicated unmetered bandwidth (300TB a month) from a BGP mix of 10 major backbone providers + 10x q6600/4GB RAM/500GB Sata servers + own private switch + 24x7 support on rebooting and OS re installations + we were customers for over 2 years and the uptime is well above 99.99%!

hosting366 in Dublin, ( €945/month )
2TB a month, 1x Intel Xeon 5140/8GB ram, 150GB drive, 24x7 support



now tell me again how exactly is the IT infrastructure in Ireland cheaper? I will love to get a quote from any company in Dublin that can even come close to the pricing we are getting in the US


EDIT: attached traffic graph for cluster #2, our both clusters almost use as much bandwdith as the Inex in Dublin > https://www.inex.ie/technical/stats

Those who are here are here despite that difference. We invested in international connectivity in the .com era, a bunch of global crossing fibre etc. Fair enough on the datacentre point, I'm not expecting the new UK owners of Hosting365 to drop prices drastically. Rackspace economics in Ireland reflects the size of the served market, that could improve a lot if we get our act together offering homegrown online facilities.

I note also you didn't go elsewhere in the EU...