why so afraid to go it alone

seamus

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Just shows what a farce democracy is then.
If there was a yes vote would they ask us again?

No, why would they? If you want to be asked again in the event of a yes, then you vote for someone who will give you that.

Fact is, the people of this country voted in a very pro-EU government. A Government's obligation is to make decisions on behalf of the people. The government has decided that involvement in the EU is a good thing, so they will try to do what they can to keep us involved. If this requires asking us until we say, "yes", then so be it. If we no longer want to be in the EU, then we should stop voting in a pro-EU government.

This is democracy, deal with it. While the yes voters may be bitter in the mouth, you don't hear of any yes voters asking that demcracy be ignored and the treaty be forced through without referendum.
Yet you hear no voters insisting that the thing never be put to vote again, which is a distinct call to abandon democracy.

The Corinthian

Scofflaw wrote: »

Well, how about you ask anyone who posts here who is a business owner? Personally, I'd move to Scotland, and take my business with me, because I wish to sell into other EU markets.

Indeed, but I'd still come back here for holidays as it'll be a cheap destination.

kevteljeur

The Corinthian wrote: »

Indeed, but I'd still come back here for holidays as it'll be a cheap destination.

LOL - so very true. In fact, that's exactly what happened with parents, they moved here from the Netherlands in the late '60s after a honeymoon here; Ireland was seen from there much as we might view Moldova now, a strange, primitive, backward place where women still followed behind their men, horse and cart was still acceptable as a form of transport, and of course it was very, very cheap. All that has changed dramatically of course, but they've never forgotten it.

In an Ireland outside of the EU things wouldn't slide so far, but indeed one would be able to walk into a b&b and negotiate a good price using your hard euro currency in a way unthinkable at this moment, and have your shoes shined on the remains of Grafton street by a fervent Nationalist who can't afford to hang to his principles anymore.

Kev_ps3

I dont have a problem with Ireland trading with the "EU" but I do have a problem with everything else - open boarders, EU Law, Europe telling us what we can and cant do etc.
On the balance of things I still think we should pull out. If we lose some jobs in certain sectors then we could focus on other areas such as farming and the military. They would cover the job losses.

seamus

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I dont have a problem with Ireland trading with the "EU" but I do have a problem with everything else - open boarders, EU Law, Europe telling us what we can and cant do etc.
On the balance of things I still think we should pull out. If we lose some jobs in certain sectors then we could focus on other areas such as farming and the military. They would cover the job losses.

I can't believe you're actually serious.

You really believe that we can just employ everyone as a farmer or a soldier? So we farm the land to **** and compensate the farmers for the stuff they can't sell. And we use the income tax and VAT from the farmers' sales to pay the soldiers.

How do you propose we generate any actual income?

And what in God's name do we need a big military for? When was the last time we were the subject of armed aggression?

ionix5891

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

If we lose some jobs in certain sectors then we could focus on other areas such as farming and the military. They would cover the job losses.

:rolleyes: i nominate you to dig spuds for the rest of your life, comeback when you realise what a dumb idea it is

sink

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I dont have a problem with Ireland trading with the "EU" but I do have a problem with everything else - open boarders, EU Law, Europe telling us what we can and cant do etc.
On the balance of things I still think we should pull out. If we lose some jobs in certain sectors then we could focus on other areas such as farming and the military. They would cover the job losses.

Kev you are completely clueless. You need to take the blinkers off. So far you have not ceded one point and you continue to spout illogical nationalistic bull**** with no rationale. If you are not here to debate and are just soapboxing, please piss off because you are boring the rest of us.

whitser

ireland is a different country to the one that joined the eu. in many ways its thanks to the eu,but that doesnt mean that we have to put all our eggs in that basket. we have said no to this treaty truth be told most countries if given the choice would also. so if the eu wont accept that and is prepared to move without us we should be brave enough to say ok.
also its looking likey that the cheq republic might also reject this treaty,where will that leave it?

Kev_ps3

seamus wrote: »

I can't believe you're actually serious.

You really believe that we can just employ everyone as a farmer or a soldier? So we farm the land to **** and compensate the farmers for the stuff they can't sell. And we use the income tax and VAT from the farmers' sales to pay the soldiers.

How do you propose we generate any actual income?

And what in God's name do we need a big military for? When was the last time we were the subject of armed aggression?

I never said we should employ EVERYONE as a farmer or soldier but it would cover some of the job losses if they arrise. Plus I think it would be better for our country in the long run not to depend on foreign companys who could pull out at any time.
As regards the military, every country needs a strong military to protect itself and the issue with the north isnt solved yet.

Kev_ps3

sink wrote: »

Kev you are completely clueless. You need to take the blinkers off. So far you have not ceded one point and you continue to spout illogical nationalistic bull**** with no rationale. If you are not here to debate and are just soapboxing, please piss off because you are boring the rest of us.

Well thats you opinion, I could say the same about this post.

marco_polo

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I dont have a problem with Ireland trading with the "EU" but I do have a problem with everything else - open boarders, EU Law, Europe telling us what we can and cant do etc.
On the balance of things I still think we should pull out. If we lose some jobs in certain sectors then we could focus on other areas such as farming and the military. They would cover the job losses.

It is a shame that you cannot trade with the EU without adopting all that Law.

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I never said we should employ EVERYONE as a farmer or soldier but it would cover some of the job losses if they arrise. Plus I think it would be better for our country in the long run not to depend on foreign companys who could pull out at any time.
As regards the military, every country needs a strong military to protect itself and the issue with the north isnt solved yet.

You are even against foreign companies not just immigration? Now that is rabid foaming at the mouth nationalism at its finest. BTW we had a referendum on that whole North situation ages ago, you aren't advocating a second referendum on that again are you? The people have spoken and all that.

thehighground

ionix5891 wrote: »

:rolleyes: i nominate you to dig spuds for the rest of your life, comeback when you realise what a dumb idea it is

How do Kerry Foods (headquarters in Tralee) manage to do this:

"Kerry supplies over 10,000 food, food ingredients and flavour products to customers in more than 140 countries worldwide. The Group has manufacturing facilities in 19 different countries and international sales offices in 20 other countries across the globe.

Launched as a public company in 1986*, Kerry Group plc is listed on the Dublin and London Stock Markets and has a current market capitalisation of €3.4 billion."

http://www.verkom.ie/Kerry_Group


*Prior to that, it was a creamery (co-op) owned by local farmers.

kevteljeur

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I dont have a problem with Ireland trading with the "EU" but I do have a problem with everything else - open boarders, EU Law, Europe telling us what we can and cant do etc.
On the balance of things I still think we should pull out. If we lose some jobs in certain sectors then we could focus on other areas such as farming and the military. They would cover the job losses.

Kev_ps3, you're not using reason here. You can't trade with someone when they already have what you are offering, for cheaper. Our farming is massively subsidised by the EU. Not by our own state, because we can't afford that.

Trade with the EU would become very, very expensive: Kev_ps3, you know perfectly well that we are net importers. Almost everything is imported, bar food. All imports would become much more expensive. Conversely, all exports to any European country including the UK, would become much more expensive for them.

Open borders: Irish nationals in other EU countries would have to go back to Ireland. Does that include the ones in the UK, several million of them? Where would they live? How would it be paid for?

You wouldn't even be able to trade with Northern Ireland, since that is part of the EU, and we wouldn't be - how would that work in your brave new world?

Finally, the military? Are you serious? Do you know anything about Ireland's military at all? It's practically another Irish service industry, and you are suggesting that Ireland would abandon neutrality, introduce conscription and then become like the French Foreign Legion. Amazing, Kev_ps3, you've turned Ireland into a small Atlantic Yugoslavia, except without any industrial base.

Oh, and the Irish Army's weapons are all imports. We wouldn't even be able to afford to arm our soldiers any more. Maybe they could defend Ireland with sticks.

mickoneill30

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I never said we should employ EVERYONE as a farmer or soldier but it would cover some of the job losses if they arrise.

Sure it would. What about the other tens of thousands? Sure the farmers taxes and soldiers taxes could pay our dole.

Just how many farmers do you think the country could support? And what size are you expecting the army to grow to and what do we need it for? Are you planning on invading anywhere? It'd be America to the west and Europe to the right. The Irish army would be spoilt for choice. Would it be for defence? Against what? Again America to the west and Europe to the right. Maybe we could defend ourselves for half an hour.

You're right about the North though. The troubles would flare up again. I'm sure they'd get many more people up there getting closer to Britain.

kevteljeur

thehighground wrote: »

How do Kerry Foods (headquarters in Tralee) manage to do this:

"Kerry supplies over 10,000 food, food ingredients and flavour products to customers in more than 140 countries worldwide. The Group has manufacturing facilities in 19 different countries and international sales offices in 20 other countries across the globe.

Launched as a public company in 1986*, Kerry Group plc is listed on the Dublin and London Stock Markets and has a current market capitalisation of €3.4 billion."

http://www.verkom.ie/Kerry_Group


*Prior to that, it was a creamery (co-op) owned by local farmers.

With a highly creative marketing department.

ionix5891

thehighground wrote: »

How do Kerry Foods (headquarters in Tralee) manage to do this:

"Kerry supplies over 10,000 food, food ingredients and flavour products to customers in more than 140 countries worldwide. The Group has manufacturing facilities in 19 different countries and international sales offices in 20 other countries across the globe.

Launched as a public company in 1986*, Kerry Group plc is listed on the Dublin and London Stock Markets and has a current market capitalisation of €3.4 billion."

http://www.verkom.ie/Kerry_Group


*Prior to that, it was a creamery (co-op) owned by local farmers.

how many people do they employ? and do they have open positions for 2/3 of the Irish workforce who would be out of job overnight if the **** hits the fan

seriously you are asking people like me to milk cows instead of developing software?! thats an insult

blah i don't think i will stick around in a country with such backwards views, looking back is not what made Ireland a success remember that please

seamus

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I never said we should employ EVERYONE as a farmer or soldier but it would cover some of the job losses if they arrise. Plus I think it would be better for our country in the long run not to depend on foreign companys who could pull out at any time.

So, you're proposing that we employ hundreds of thousands of workers in farming and military. I think I've said it already in this thread - how many software developers does a farm need?
And if we're all working in farming or the military, what incentive are we giving other companies to come in and invest in the country? We'll have lost almost everyone who can do other useful jobs. If you have a business making microchips, you're not going to plant yourself here and retrain the farmers.

As regards the military, every country needs a strong military to protect itself and the issue with the north isnt solved yet.

The issue with the north seems well solved to me. They have their own parliament. The terrorist groups have stood down.
Sounds like peace to me.

How do Kerry Foods (headquarters in Tralee) manage to do this:

They benefit immensely from trade agreements that the EU has with other countries. If we left the EU, we would have to negotiate not only with the EU, but with other countries who have current agreements with the EU.
You also have to remember that Kerry Foods themselves benefit from cheap EU imports as their raw materials, and Eu workers for their monkey work. Their costs would shoot up if we left the EU, they'd probably have to massively cut back on their size.

Kev_ps3

seamus wrote: »

The issue with the north seems well solved to me. They have their own parliament. The terrorist groups have stood down.
Sounds like peace to me.

You dont understand what I mean, the north is still part of the UK. We could use the military to take it back rightfully.

seamus

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

You dont understand what I mean, the north is still part of the UK. We could use the military to take it back rightfully.

Yeah, the north *is* part of the UK.

We have no claim to it. The ancestors of those it was taken from are hundreds of years removed from it. Those who live there now are the rightful occupants. Nobody in the republic has any right to claim it as theirs.

mickoneill30

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

You dont understand what I mean, the north is still part of the UK. We could use the military to take it back rightfully.

You have to be a troll right?

kevteljeur

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

You dont understand what I mean, the north is still part of the UK. We could use the military to take it back rightfully.

LOL. Utterly priceless.

You might have missed how that territory is still claimed by the very large, powerful state next to us. With a massive military force that dwarfs ours, capable of winning wars across the world. And you're suggesting that we break off ties with the EU, and then take on that state with our tiny army.

Kev_ps3, do the math. They are a powerful wealthy nation, and there are 15 of them to every one of us. Think about it, please.


Edit: Ahhh, what am I doing, I'm arguing with a troll using reason and logic. Fair play to you, you lead us on and we fell for it. Well done, it was very funny. I really thought you might believe that stuff.

Solair

The suggestion that we should leave the EU or that the EU has somehow damaged Ireland is utterly preposterous.

If we left we'd simply have no market and be returned to the state that we were in back in the 1950s. We'd possibly even be in a worse situation than we were in immediately before joining the EEC as we could suddenly find that even the UK market would be cut off from us. The UK would not necessarily be in a position to enter into a relationship with the Republic of Ireland outside of EU rules.

We have basically no natural resources other than a tiny bit of metal that is very difficult to mine and a slight 'whiff' of gas which is barely enough to supply national needs never mind export.

We've no oil despite decades of speculation that there might be some off the west coast somewhere. If it hasn't been found by now, it's unlikely to be something that you'd want your economic future to rely on.

The economy has transformed from one where farming and fishing made up a big % of the economic activity of the country to one where they really only represent quite a small sector relative to the economy as a whole.

Leaving would totally kill our economy off for good.

There is simply NO WAY that Ireland could survive on our fish stocks.

Kev_ps3

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, the north *is* part of the UK.

We have no claim to it. The ancestors of those it was taken from are hundreds of years removed from it. Those who live there now are the rightful occupants. Nobody in the republic has any right to claim it as theirs.

Thats your opinion. Patriots like myself believe that the north rightfully Irish land. No excuse will change that.

Kev_ps3

mickoneill30 wrote: »

You have to be a troll right?

No, my opinons are outside the mainstream I admit that but does that mean I dont have the right to an opinion? I am simply speaking my views.

thehighground

ionix5891 wrote: »

how many people do they employ? and do they have open positions for 2/3 of the Irish workforce who would be out of job overnight if the **** hits the fan

seriously you are asking people like me to milk cows instead of developing software?! thats an insult

blah i don't think i will stick around in a country with such backwards views, looking back is not what made Ireland a success remember that please

None of the 20,000 staff ( around the world - little bit like Swiss company Nestle of Kerry Foods actually milk cows. You may have noticed they have a website which would seem to indicate that they do need some IT expertise.

RyanAir is another global business like Kerry Foods. They employ more than pilots.

I'd be happy to pay for your one-way ticket out of this country.

mickoneill30

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Thats your opinion. Patriots like myself believe that the north rightfully Irish land. No excuse will change that.

Theres a difference between a republican and an idiot who thinks Ireland could go to war with Britain with any army we could manage to get together.

I see from your signature that you like games like The Orange Box and Call Of Duty. Games where one man or a group of men go up against armies. Are you living in your game world?

The Corinthian

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

If we lose some jobs in certain sectors then we could focus on other areas such as farming and the military. They would cover the job losses.

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

You dont understand what I mean, the north is still part of the UK. We could use the military to take it back rightfully.

And there we have it. Push a Eurosceptic on their supposedly reasonable arguments long enough and they eventually revert to their true motivation - petty, xenophobic, nationalism.

Kev_ps3

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Theres a difference between a republican and an idiot who thinks Ireland could go to war with Britain with any army we could manage to get together.

I see from your signature that you like games like The Orange Box and COD4. Games where one man or a group of men go up against armies. Are you living in your game world?

You need to believe in your country. We have a small population yet when we compete on a level playing field such as sport we show that we can achieve anything. Under the right leadership anything is possible.

seamus

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Thats your opinion. Patriots nationalists like myself believe that the north rightfully Irish land. No excuse will change that.

Fixed that for you.

thehighground wrote: »

RyanAir is another global business like Kerry Foods. They employ more than pilots.

If you think that Ryanair have any patriotism whatsoever, your fooling yourself. If Ryanair had to pay more to fly in and out of the EU, you'd very quickly see their Dublin - London routes scaled back and the bulk of their operations, including their HQ, moved to Luton.

You need to believe in your country. We have a small population yet when we compete on a level playing field such as sport we show that we can achieve anything. Under the right leadership anything is possible.

Sport: One person or a team of persons competing against an equally-sized team using a defined set of rules and regulations.

War: Armies of generally unequal measure fighting without rules or boundaries.

Look at it this way. Starting a war with an EU country would be like playing a football match where you have 11 players and your opponents have 880.

mickoneill30

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Under the right leadership anything is possible.

The power of positive thinking.

Break away from Europe. Invade the North and take it back from Britain.

Of course I believe in my country. I just don't believe we're a superpower.