why so afraid to go it alone

The Corinthian

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

No, my opinons are outside the mainstream I admit that but does that mean I dont have the right to an opinion? I am simply speaking my views.

You are entirely entitled to your opinion as we are entitled to point out that you're talking through your arse.

Just because you have an opinion, that does not mean anyone else should accept or even respect it. My favourite part is where we would take back the north by military means - a military that is presently tiny and to even get to the point of being capable of such a feat would require funds that we would no longer be able to afford (because we'd have wrecked the economy along the way). Add to this we would become international pariahs for having gone back on our recognition of self determination in NI and would be economically ostracised.

Please don't breed.

eoin2nc

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

You need to believe in your country. We have a small population yet when we compete on a level playing field such as sport we show that we can achieve anything. Under the right leadership anything is possible.

So we can beat the English in rugby, so lets go invade the North of Ireland. Seriously do you have a clue? First of all it would end in a defeat, no way Ireland could match the British militarily.

Think of the senseless desturuction to our country. Im not going to bother talking about this anymore, because it will never happen anyway

I have heard idiotic comments before, but this one is hard to beat

The Corinthian

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

You need to believe in your country. We have a small population yet when we compete on a level playing field such as sport we show that we can achieve anything.

LOL. This has to be a troll. No one is this deluded.

Under the right leadership anything is possible.

Like invading Russia?

kevteljeur

eoin2nc wrote: »

So we can beat the English in rugby, so lets go invade the North of Ireland. Seriously do you have a clue? First of all it would end in a defeat, no way Ireland could match the British militarily.

Think of the senseless desturuction to our country. Im not going to bother talking about this anymore, because it will never happen anyway

I have heard idiotic comments before, but this one is hard to beat

eoin2nc, you're no patriot. If you were a true patriot, then you'd see that we'd send our rugby team up there, defeat one of the world's top armies in a game of rugby, and after that, there would be no stopping us. Hell, we'd be a world empire if it wasn't for naysayers like you.

With the right management, we could probably even take on the US or Russia...

kevteljeur

I actually think that Kev_ps3's pitch would make amazing stand-up comedy. I think he's got all the right elements in there for a world-class comedy character.

IRLConor

The Corinthian wrote: »

Like invading Russia?

Yep, in winter too!

I'd love to think that kev_ps3 is trolling, but from what I've seen of his posts before I think he does actually believe this tripe. Maybe he'll grow out of it eventually.

hmmm

The problem is with the Celtic tiger cubs generation in my view, they voted 2 to 1 against the treaty. They have not lived in an Ireland where jobs were not freely available. They may complain about money but in reality they are rich for people their age. They don't understand where we came from or how we got there.

In a way it is great that they feel they can care more about principle and less about economics, young people across Europe who are struggling to find employment don't have this luxury. Unfortunately I don't know how you get the message across to our young people without an economic shock and I'd rather we didn't have to go there. So..what to do..

thehighground

seamus wrote: »

So, you're proposing that we employ hundreds of thousands of workers in farming and military. I think I've said it already in this thread - how many software developers does a farm need?
And if we're all working in farming or the military, what incentive are we giving other companies to come in and invest in the country? We'll have lost almost everyone who can do other useful jobs. If you have a business making microchips, you're not going to plant yourself here and retrain the farmers.

Big incentive to come into this country is our (1) educated work force (btw, my two brothers who are engaged in farming - one has a Degree in Mechanical Engineering, the other has a Degree in Agric. Sc. with a Masters in Marketing - 2 out of 3 of my cousins engaged in farming have 3rd level qualifications - so you might want to review your thinking that farmers are a bit stupid.

The issue with the north seems well solved to me. They have their own parliament. The terrorist groups have stood down.
Sounds like peace to me.

Stormont isn't a parliament - its an assembly. They have been unable to pass any legislation. Your average Co. Council down here has far more power than Stormont. At least, they are not killing anyone anymore ... but its a long, long way from being ok.

They benefit immensely from trade agreements that the EU has with other countries. If we left the EU, we would have to negotiate not only with the EU, but with other countries who have current agreements with the EU.
You also have to remember that Kerry Foods themselves benefit from cheap EU imports as their raw materials, and Eu workers for their monkey work. Their costs would shoot up if we left the EU, they'd probably have to massively cut back on their size.

As for Trade Agreements etc. - the IDA is regarded as one of the best outfits in the world at attracting investment - I'd say they would be well capable of sorting out a few trade agreements as well.

As for cheap EU workers - we could actually open our doors to anyone we decided, so I doubt if cheap labour would be a problem!

mickoneill30

hmmm wrote: »

The problem is with the Celtic tiger cubs generation in my view, they voted 2 to 1 against the treaty.

It wasn't just them though. Some of the more impressionable actually beleived a lot of the No arguments. I have spoken to people (generally of a certain demographic) that believed that abortion was about to be foisted on us.

thehighground

seamus wrote: »

If you think that Ryanair have any patriotism whatsoever, your fooling yourself. If Ryanair had to pay more to fly in and out of the EU, you'd very quickly see their Dublin - London routes scaled back and the bulk of their operations, including their HQ, moved to Luton.

Where did I say that RyanAir had any loyalty to Ireland? You missed my point. I was merely trying to illustrate that Kerry Foods is like any other business it needs all sorts of skills to run it successfully.

ionix5891

thehighground wrote: »

None of the 20,000 staff ( around the world - little bit like Swiss company Nestle of Kerry Foods actually milk cows. You may have noticed they have a website which would seem to indicate that they do need some IT expertise.

RyanAir is another global business like Kerry Foods. They employ more than pilots.

I'd be happy to pay for your one-way ticket out of this country.

:eek: if people like you ever gain power in this country dont worry i will leave very quickly so you can roll in your own mess

thehighground wrote: »

At least, they are not killing anyone anymore ...

did you not hear? were invading the North!

thehighground

seamus wrote: »

Look at it this way. Starting a war with an EU country would be like playing a football match where you have 11 players and your opponents have 880.

To be fair, I'd say the South of England taxpayer would love to hand over their 15bn a year subvention liability to us.

Big question is - would we take it on?

whitser

mickoneill30 wrote: »

It wasn't just them though. Some of the more impressionable actually beleived a lot of the No arguments. I have spoken to people (generally of a certain demographic) that believed that abortion was about to be foisted on us.

the 3 biggest parties in the country couldnt even sell this treaty to their own voters. to say that only the impressionable voted no is quite arrogant. in fact it more likely that most yes votes did so because they were told to.

limklad

The Corinthian wrote: »

LOL. This has to be a troll. No one is this deluded.

Like invading Russia?

I have read many of his comments, I do not believe he (Kev_ps3 ) is not a troll at the moment, but I do believe right now that he is completely insane extremist.

The Corinthian

thehighground wrote: »

Where did I say that RyanAir had any loyalty to Ireland? You missed my point. I was merely trying to illustrate that Kerry Foods is like any other business it needs all sorts of skills to run it successfully.

Skills that can be found elsewhere if the conditions are significantly advantageous. What you appear to fail to understand is that large corporations have no true national allegiance, Ryanair would fully relocate in a heartbeat and other Irish plc's, such as Kerry, CRH and Èlan would do likewise if it's worth their while.

Who cares if the skills are here? You can get them elsewhere too, or for that matter our skills will emigrate to where they're needed - this is what we were doing up to 15 years ago, after all.

I'm sorry but you have to face the fact that economically we will do worse outside of the EU. Once you accept that you need to sell the idea that it is still worth it for whatever nationalistic reasons you really support.

mickoneill30

whitser wrote: »

to say that only the impressionable voted no is quite arrogant.

You're right there. I didn't say that though. Argue against what I wrote. Not what you want to argue against.

kevteljeur

hmmm wrote: »

The problem is with the Celtic tiger cubs generation in my view, they voted 2 to 1 against the treaty. They have not lived in an Ireland where jobs were not freely available. They may complain about money but in reality they are rich for people their age. They don't understand where we came from or how we got there.

In a way it is great that they feel they can care more about principle and less about economics, young people across Europe who are struggling to find employment don't have this luxury. Unfortunately I don't know how you get the message across to our young people without an economic shock and I'd rather we didn't have to go there. So..what to do..

It's coming anyway, regardless. The problem is more that for a few years after that hits, the EU will still be the fall guy for causing it. By and large, people don't look too closely at the State's economic policies and effects of the same. It's easier to point to an external force rather than consciously admit to voting for the wrong guy.

By way of example, if Ireland had kept it's higher corporate tax rates, investment would have been slower, and we wouldn't have had the steep ramp up that we did. But the State would have been wealthier over the long term, and the economy more stable and resilient; I really think this is a big part of what Germany and France are concerned about with the Irish economic model.

thehighground

The Corinthian wrote: »

Skills that can be found elsewhere if the conditions are significantly advantageous. What you appear to fail to understand is that large corporations have no true national allegiance, Ryanair would fully relocate in a heartbeat and other Irish plc's, such as Kerry, CRH and Èlan would do likewise if it's worth their while.

Who cares if the skills are here? You can get them elsewhere too, or for that matter our skills will emigrate to where they're needed - this is what we were doing up to 15 years ago, after all.

I'm sorry but you have to face the fact that economically we will do worse outside of the EU. Once you accept that you need to sell the idea that it is still worth it for whatever nationalistic reasons you really support.

I fully appreciate that many companies would relocate in a heartbeat - but for any profitable company that heartbeat will have to include a lower corporate tax rate than Ireland.

ionix5891

thehighground wrote: »

I fully appreciate that many companies would relocate in a heartbeat - but for any profitable company that heartbeat will have to include a lower corporate tax rate than Ireland.

there are plenty of countries in east Europe who are giving very nice deals to corporations, why do you think they are all slowly leaving? do you want them all gone in one go? the Celtic tiger is over and we need decide where we going next that will be hard to do with a huge % of the population unemployed or growing spuds

thehighground

ionix5891 wrote: »

there are plenty of countries in east Europe who are giving very nice deals to corporations, why do you think they are all slowly leaving? do you want them all gone in one go? the Celtic tiger is over and we need decide where we going next that will be hard to do with a huge % of the population unemployed or growing spuds

Give me five corporations that has left Ireland to go the Eastern Europe? (Not India mind, Eastern Europe!)

IRLConor

thehighground wrote: »

I fully appreciate that many companies would relocate in a heartbeat - but for any profitable company that heartbeat will have to include a lower corporate tax rate than Ireland.

Yep, like Bulgaria or Cyprus.

hmmm

IRLConor wrote: »

Yep, like Bulgaria or Cyprus.

Or Estonia at 0%. Or Lithuania or Latvia at 15%. Or Hungary and Poland at 19%.

The Corinthian

thehighground wrote: »

I fully appreciate that many companies would relocate in a heartbeat - but for any profitable company that heartbeat will have to include a lower corporate tax rate than Ireland.

Other than the fact that favourable tax rates are not exclusive to Ireland, the bottom line is that taxation is only a factor if you actually turn a profit. You could have a zero tax rate, but if you're making a tiny profit (or even a loss) you're better off where you'll make a big profit, even if you're paying more tax.

As I said, the Eurosceptic economic arguments just don't add up. You're better off sticking to the patriotic ones, that are ultimately your real motivation.

CerebralCortex

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

You need to believe in your country. We have a small population yet when we compete on a level playing field such as sport we show that we can achieve anything. Under the right leadership anything is possible.

There you have it folks. Sport = War.

seamus

thehighground wrote: »

Big incentive to come into this country is our (1) educated work force (btw, my two brothers who are engaged in farming - one has a Degree in Mechanical Engineering, the other has a Degree in Agric. Sc. with a Masters in Marketing - 2 out of 3 of my cousins engaged in farming have 3rd level qualifications - so you might want to review your thinking that farmers are a bit stupid.

Sorry if it came across that way, I didn't mean to imply that at all. I'm very aware that it's common now for someone to go to college and then return home to take over the family farm. My point is that most of the rest of us have no experience nor any desire to be farmers (or soldiers) - That farming and military would employ everyone left jobless is way beyond pipe dreaming.

kevteljeur

The Corinthian wrote: »

Other than the fact that favourable tax rates are not exclusive to Ireland, the bottom line is that taxation is only a factor if you actually turn a profit. You could have a zero tax rate, but if you're making a tiny profit (or even a loss) you're better off where you'll make a big profit, even if you're paying more tax.

As I said, the Eurosceptic economic arguments just don't add up. You're better off sticking to the patriotic ones, that are ultimately your real motivation.

It's a little akin to getting yourself thrown out of a nightclub to avoid paying for your round, and then starting on your best mate who tried to stick by you and who happens to be a 150kg special forces operative. No-one's even going to pretend to be understanding.

thehighground

The Corinthian wrote: »

Other than the fact that favourable tax rates are not exclusive to Ireland, the bottom line is that taxation is only a factor if you actually turn a profit. You could have a zero tax rate, but if you're making a tiny profit (or even a loss) you're better off where you'll make a big profit, even if you're paying more tax.

As I said, the Eurosceptic economic arguments just don't add up. You're better off sticking to the patriotic ones, that are ultimately your real motivation.

And if the French & Germans get their way, no one in the EU will have favourable tax rates! How do we all compete then?

Why do you feel a need to assign motivation?

seamus

thehighground wrote: »

And if the French & Germans get their way, no one in the EU will have favourable tax rates! How do we all compete then?

Why do you feel a need to assign motivation?

But how can they get their way when it can be vetoed?

There is no way in hell that France and Germany would get unanimity on harmonisation. Not in my lifetime.

ionix5891

seamus wrote: »

But how can they get their way when it can be vetoed?

you see the veto part was conveniently left out by Liberats when pushing the tax issue

yet another lie on a long list of lies that were fed to people

The Corinthian

thehighground wrote: »

And if the French & Germans get their way, no one in the EU will have favourable tax rates! How do we all compete then?

That is if they have their way, which Lisbon does not open the road to. You're simply lowering yourself to FUD arguments now.

Why do you feel a need to assign motivation?

Because that's what it comes down to. If pressed, I suspect you would tolerate our economy returning to pre nineties levels - because this would be an acceptable price for 'independence'. If so, then your economic arguments are simply hollow propaganda, designed to obfuscate your true motivations.

If you believe the EU is a bad thing, you should say why and let people decide on that basis. The problem is that it would probably be some xenophobic or nationalistic rational that most would reject - hence your need to use arguments that will push a goal common with your agenda.