Minimum standards and advisable goals!

Quazzie

In the interest of todays current ecological and economical climate it is everyones best interest to try achieve the most energy efficient homes they possibly can. Now while we can't all go live in Pasive houses. or pay mountains of cash to achieve this there are some simple and easy goals that can be achieved, i.e increased insulation, lower dependency on fossil fuels, in particular oil. After reading a small bit about this and about the new BER scheme that is being put into circulation it seems that there is very conflicting views and opinion being expressed about what exactly is the right route to go down. While all agree that increased levels of insulation is a key the other factors like Geothermal Heat pumps and HRV (heat recovery ventilation) seem to split the boards.

So can anyone state what is the least insulation requirements required by the BER assessor to achieve a B standard house?

Can you also state what is the best achievable insulation standard that they would recommend?

P.S I know this is a repeat of a question so often asked on these boards but I only ask it again because I honestly can't see where anyone has given a straight answer without veering off topic and causing the asker to not find the answer they actually want

sydthebeat

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

In the interest of todays current ecological and economical climate it is everyones best interest to try achieve the most energy efficient homes they possibly can. Now while we can't all go live in Pasive houses. or pay mountains of cash to achieve this there are some simple and easy goals that can be achieved, i.e increased insulation, lower dependency on fossil fuels, in particular oil. After reading a small bit about this and about the new BER scheme that is being put into circulation it seems that there is very conflicting views and opinion being expressed about what exactly is the right route to go down. While all agree that increased levels of insulation is a key the other factors like Geothermal Heat pumps and HRV (heat recovery ventilation) seem to split the boards.

So can anyone state what is the least insulation requirements required by the BER assessor to achieve a B standard house?

Can you also state what is the best achievable insulation standard that they would recommend?

P.S I know this is a repeat of a question so often asked on these boards but I only ask it again because I honestly can't see where anyone has given a straight answer without veering off topic and causing the asker to not find the answer they actually want

the difficulty in answering that question lies in the fact that theres a lot more involved in the calculations than just u values.
These other equally important factors are:

size and type of dwelling
amount of passive solar gains
type of heating system and degree of control over same
air tightness
detailing to avoid thermal bridging
performance of building elements (windows doors etc)


the "best achievable insulation standard" is also relative to the above factors. for example theres no point having 400mm of foam insulation all around your house if you have poor airtightness, bad detailing and passive vents....

sinnerboy

Suggest you employ a professional . Seeking (and failing ) to find answers here is a poor substitute

Quazzie

Thanks for the civil and helpful response as always syd. Its nice to see a positive answer rather than sinnerboy's efforts. What I'm really looking for is the basic requirements required by Part L and also where people think is the easiest and cost efficient way to improve on them minimum standards.

sinnerboy

Sorry to appear un helpful Q2002 . I thought i gave good advice .

look here for a rough guide to how u value , air tightness and m+e spec all inter relate

http://www.playtheregs.com/Default.aspx?Message=Please+enter+your+Email+address+and+click+Play&Timer=18140242721&

Quazzie

The reason is because I am currently in the process of getting planning permission and am pricing everything that goes into the house for my own self build, but i don't know what standards to look at, for example what u value should I be seeking in windows. how much wall and dormer roof insulation should i look for. It just all seems very daunting at the moment. Just looking for example figures to have somethign to compare to.

sinnerboy

Spend about €1k on a BER assessor . False economy not to

Quazzie

Well personally I think that its a bit of a bad idea to hire a BER assessor at the moment because I need to get quotes for my mortgage but I can't get quotes till I know what spec I am doing my house to but I don't know what spec I am building it to yet till I meet a BER assessor but all my money at the moment is tied up in my deposit for a mortgage I can't get till I get all this sorted. Talk about Catch 22.

sinnerboy

BER assessor will answer your questions

look here for the moral of the story

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055301179

perhaps others here will help you further .

I don't believe i can

RKQ

Contact each insulation manufacturer with a copy of your plans and your site plan ( showing "North")
Ask each to achieve B rating and compare specs and prices!
Simple and cheap....

Some English Insulation manufacturers have easy to use calculators, on their web sites, try them to get a rought idea of required insulation.

Its confusing and based on lots of difference things but its not rocket science. BER Assessor can assess your house for €300:)
Cheap as chips!

sydthebeat

quazzie, you query is the same as most people starting out building... your flailing around in the dark at the moment....

as SB says, hire a BEr assessor to assess the design, and advise on construction types, levels of insulation and the resultant BERs.

It will cost 300 to assess the dwelling after its complete (which is arbitary), but you need advice now, thats why SB quotes around €1K and it would be well worth the money...

to be honest you are trying to get answers here that are unanswerable, if you are serious about conserving energy through best construction then engage the relevant professionals, otherwise youll end up with a base level standard build.

save energy

Quazzie,

As an Energy Assessor, I would concur with sinnerboy's opinion. You need to either use an architect, who should be able to use the DEAP software or if you are building off a pattern book you will need an energy assessor, you might even decide to do the course yourself to help your decision making.

Standard 2002 regs house can give C1, so upgrading to B3 should be easy, but why bother. B1 is the new minimum standard for houses which got planning after Jan 07. The standard masonery house we build in ireland can not easily be up-spec'd to perform 40% better. Dry lining or full fill cavities have dampness problems, the way we build habitable attics and dormers do not use techniques that have airtighness and energy use in mind. Sure I could suggest that you doubly insulate everything above wallplate, use only high efficiency boilers, etc but its not that simple, The B standard is based on asset rating, measured from plans, to give you a label, but should you not be more interested in the built performance of the building, indicated in bills, comfort levels and daylight?

Insulate as much as you can, it has a better return than the SSIA. If you can afford it use natural materials especially if you have young children. Look at passive ways of reducing heating demand instead of focusing on what heating system to use.


Hope this helps.

sydthebeat

+ 1 and applaudes the above.

People starting to build need to realise that the accepted standard way of building in ireland these days simply isnt good enough anymore. The regulations have changed for the absolute benefit of owners and prospective owners of new houses.. they are not a penalty!!!

muffler

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

Well personally I think that its a bit of a bad idea to hire a BER assessor at the moment because I need to get quotes for my mortgage but I can't get quotes till I know what spec I am doing my house to but I don't know what spec I am building it to yet till I meet a BER assessor but all my money at the moment is tied up in my deposit for a mortgage I can't get till I get all this sorted. Talk about Catch 22.

Far be it for me to be seen as stifling debate but I fail to see your problem. As was rightly pointed out by syd there are a lot of factors to be taken into consideration. Whats wrong with getting a spec from your own architect/engineer? Is it a case that you dont trust them or what.

RKQ made a good suggestion and I'll tell you what - you could even go to your local builders providers yard and the guys there would probably be able to assist by telling you what is the most commonly supplied insulations and the price etc. That would be sufficient for estimating the insulation costs and form the basis of your budget.

Really and truly Im of the opinion that you want someone here to give you a spec for your house. Well that wont happen.

Talk to a local professional who is familiar with the factors as mentioned above.

SillyMonkey

Quazzie2002 I know your pain since I have just gone through what you have. So what I'm going to tell you is just for my house. I am going for an A3 rating because it wasn't far off what was on the plans.

Just for a bit of background: I got my PP last year but didn't start to build till march due to the council. When I eventually decided on an energy rating I asked my architect about it but he didn't have a clue and based the spec of the plans on building regs. So looking at the kingspan booklet I seen that I wasn't far off A3 standard.

Though I was great when I worked out what I needed in the floor, walls and windows. Then when I went into more detail I seen that things like how much glass you have, the direction the windows are facing (south or what not) even stone work on part of the house was having an effect. I decided to go for Geo with UFH seperate to the energy rating issue but this affected it also. Don't get me started on the ceiling. My head was going to explode.

So I asked for a bit of advice on this site like you and honestly a BER assesor was the best bit of advice and decision I ever made.

Here are most of my specs for "MY" A3 rated house (I don't have most of the U-Values at hand because I'm in work but I will re-edit this later):

BTW my house is a concrete built house with concrete floor in 1st floor.

• In floor 100MM rigid insulation with the UFH. (when I initially phoned the BER assesor I was at this stage. She assumed that I was going rads. So she said for A3 I needed 200MM of floor insulation MIN. I nearly crapped my pants because the floor height was in but not poured yet, it would have been murder to change that. But when I explaned that it was UFH she said 100MM was fine, pheeew).
• In the walls I had 80MM rigid insulation. She said this just met A3 standard but was fine. She also said I could add more or dry line the inside of the inner leaf but that would not help my energy rating. It would just cut down on my CO2 emmisions.
• In the ceiling upstairs lay 200MM rockwool between joists. Then lay 100MM perpendicular on top.
• She assumed the front door to be solid timber and have a U-Value of no more than 3.0.
• Windows a U-Value of 1.7. This is where it really differed from the kingspan booklet. Because if you follow that, which I was, it says for an A3 rating you need at least 1.3 U-Value.
• She also said the house needs to be airtight.
• All lighting needs to be able to take CFL
• Lastly she said because I was using GEO it made a massive difference and made it a lot easier to achieve an A3 rating.

She also looked into an A2 Rating just to see how much extra it would cost. But basically the only thing I need to do is use solar to heat the water. I looked into that seperately but didn't see the cost benifit.

BTW the figures like "80MM cavity insulation" doesn't actually mean A3 standard it means for my house it's A3 standard in conjunction with every other variable. I shouldn't really have stuck to that kingspan booklet so closley. I mean also for e.g. it says I need a HRV (I think thats what its called), but I don't.

Sorry for the long post (and ramble) but I wanted to give you some figures to work with. Also I hope I conveyed the complexities of the rating. Its not a simple process and has a lot of variables. You really need a BER assesor. If you need to hold off on the construction to get this right then do it.

P.S. you know the B rating is split into B1, B2 and B3.

SillyMonkey

Just re-read your question after my rant.

You can ask a BER assesor for a combination of B whatever spec and/or cost spec.

I wanted an A3 rating and wanted to know how much it would cost and then the difference in price to goto A2. She done this up no probs.

BER assesor best thing ever.:)

archtech

The best advise would be to get an BER assessor to look look a a number of options , using different elements, be it additional insulation, be it the inclusion of a heat recovery unit etc and even various wall build ups. OK it will cost more that a standard BER cert, but it will allow you see get a better overall picture.And be able to cost it.
One way at looking at things or improvements and is to compare the cost of improved performance of the dwelling to cost of a fill (or number of fills of) oil and how much less oil you would save by increasing the insulation thickness for example.

sydthebeat

SillyMonkey wrote: »

• In floor 100MM rigid insulation with the UFH. (when I initially phoned the BER assesor I was at this stage. She assumed that I was going rads. So she said for A3 I needed 200MM of floor insulation MIN. I nearly crapped my pants because the floor height was in but not poured yet, it would have been murder to change that. But when I explaned that it was UFH she said 100MM was fine, pheeew).
• In the walls I had 80MM rigid insulation. She said this just met A3 standard but was fine. She also said I could add more or dry line the inside of the inner leaf but that would not help my energy rating. It would just cut down on my CO2 emmisions.
• In the ceiling upstairs lay 200MM rockwool between joists. Then lay 100MM perpendicular on top.
• She assumed the front door to be solid timber and have a U-Value of no more than 3.0.
• Windows a U-Value of 1.7. This is where it really differed from the kingspan booklet. Because if you follow that, which I was, it says for an A3 rating you need at least 1.3 U-Value.
• She also said the house needs to be airtight.
• All lighting needs to be able to take CFL
• Lastly she said because I was using GEO it made a massive difference and made it a lot easier to achieve an A3 rating..

Theres so much wrong with this its unbelievable.

Slig

sydthebeat wrote: »

[/list]Theres so much wrong with this its unbelievable.

whats done is done and it got an A3. Warning to future self builders.

Welcome to Ireland please leave your professional conduct at the door, qualifications will be handed out at random

How many people reccomended a BER assessor as the solution to the problem?

sydthebeat

Slig wrote: »

whats done is done and it got an A3. Warning to future self builders.

Welcome to Ireland please leave your professional conduct at the door, qualifications will be handed out at random

I wouldnt question the competance or conduct of the assessor... maybe the client, siillymonkey, could have been mistaken in some points.. thats what i said what was 'posted' was wrong...

mods i know this is off topic... sorry... but i couldnt let it go....;)

Quazzie

Thanks for all the replies. They've all been very helpful. My current spec is as follows:

Cavity wall with 2no. 100mm concrete block leafs
Partial fill with 60mm xtratherm PF insulation and then the 50mm cavity pumped with bead insulation. then 60mm xtratherm Plasterboard on internal block.

120mm XtrathermUF under 50mm screed with geothermal UFH.

Roof to consist of 200mm xtratherm rafterloc insulation and 60mm board again.

Doors and windows I don't have info yet, but I see now what you are saying that all this info is no good because there are so many unknown variables to be considered, like orientation of the house, glazing to floor area ratio, airtightness, etc.

My thinking on the subject is that if I can keep the heat in for long enough I won't have to put as much in. So insulation is my biggie. I've considered HRV (which I'd love to have) but still awaiting some quotes back.

So in conclusion I think I'm gonna take everyones advice and get a BER assessor. Thanks for the help. Now I just gotta find where I left that credit card!!:D

sydthebeat

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies. They've all been very helpful. My current spec is as follows:

Cavity wall with 2no. 100mm concrete block leafs
Partial fill with 60mm xtratherm PF insulation and then the 50mm cavity pumped with bead insulation. then 60mm xtratherm Plasterboard on internal block.

120mm XtrathermUF under 50mm screed with geothermal UFH.

Roof to consist of 200mm xtratherm rafterloc insulation and 60mm board again.

Doors and windows I don't have info yet, but I see now what you are saying that all this info is no good because there are so many unknown variables to be considered, like orientation of the house, glazing to floor area ratio, airtightness, etc.

My thinking on the subject is that if I can keep the heat in for long enough I won't have to put as much in. So insulation is my biggie. I've considered HRV (which I'd love to have) but still awaiting some quotes back.

So in conclusion I think I'm gonna take everyones advice and get a BER assessor. Thanks for the help.

your probably looking at a minimum of a 65mm reinforced screed here.

everything else looks good

make sure all details are constructed in accordance with the relevant details here:
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/masonry_cavity_wall_insulation_illustrations.pdf

depending on the size of your house your probably looking at 8 - 10K for HRV

sinnerboy

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

120mm XtrathermUF under 50mm screed with geothermal UFH.

Roof to consist of 200mm xtratherm rafterloc insulation and 60mm board again.

My thinking on the subject is that if I can keep the heat in for long enough I won't have to put as much in. So insulation is my biggie. I've considered HRV (which I'd love to have) but still awaiting some quotes back.

If thinking HRV then also provide for an air tight barrier to be installed - behind your dry lining ( walls ) and just below rafter line ( roof ) . budget install cost €12/m2

for the floor use 2 layers of 60 to get 120 - reason these boards can curl when very thick so ovelap with staggred joints . Protect the boards from screed over with 500 gauge polythene ( nothing to do with dpm - wet conc screed can attack foil facing of insul. )

Quazzie

The house is 2800sqft and is running on a N-S axis with all the 'living areas' in the South. Syd I know this is off topic but that link you gave me is very useful. I'm a cad technician, and have been around buildings my whole life, so thats why I am designing my own house and doing all the drawings for it. I was wondering do you know of any other websites where its possible to download architectural details in Autocad?