David McWilliams article in indo

conceited

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/look-what-we-have-done-for-ordinary-europeans-1413378.html

French politicians have conveniently forgotten that while they might hob-nob with their Polish counterparts, France does not allow Polish immigrants to work freely in France. So France talks the language of solidarity but freezes out the people that this very solidarity is supposed to help. What breathless hypocrisy!

Great article

karen3212

Sorry, I am too brain dead to go right through the article, could you tell me did they mention how high unemployment was in France at the time?

Seems to me there is no point in letting immigrants in if the natives are unemployed and start going around filling up their time by beating up decent, want to work hard, lovely immigrants.

conceited

No he didn't mention that ,but as you said if it was high it's all the one anyway girl because they will go where the work is, ie ireland.

MrParanoid

"Let's do a little calculation. We have close to 300,000 immigrants working from the new accession states here. Let's say they are on a wage between the minimum wage of €17,000 and the average wage of close to €35,000 a year. So let's say €25,000. That's a total wage bill of €7.5bn per year."

Come on, you really think that all the work could/would have been done by the irish themselfs for the same salary, fact is that this saved ireland a lot of money, and that ireland would have spent this amount on own labour anyway. This in no way at all justifies the 33 billion! euros that Ireland recieved from the EU.

Thing is, the EU helped Ireland out of its 3rd world country status, and made sure that Ireland could be up to par to other EU countries. That Ireland misbehaves and has ridicoulous prices on housing, letting, food, clothing compared to other EU countries, and people coming here for 17k a year and hardly being able to survive, is plain rude, irish did not get this country up out of the gutter, so stop being proud for the wrong reasons! Irish culture / mentality = great, be proud of that. Irish new found wealth and the people having it hands that can not treat it well and because of this have tens of thousands of euro's in debt, while having 2 houses and 2 cars, is just plain idiotic.

Please use the EU money to make a stable, welfaring economic enviroment of Irland, and then complain about stuff.

Eastern europeans coming to Ireland only has given the country cheap, hardworking and precise labourers. All the work done would have cost way more if it was done by Irish. This is not 'What Ireland did for the EU' this is what other EU members did for Ireland!

p.s. Im not an eastern european.

dresden8

MrParanoid wrote: »

"Let's do a little calculation. We have close to 300,000 immigrants working from the new accession states here. Let's say they are on a wage between the minimum wage of €17,000 and the average wage of close to €35,000 a year. So let's say €25,000. That's a total wage bill of €7.5bn per year."

Come on, you really think that all the work could/would have been done by the irish themselfs for the same salary, fact is that this saved ireland a lot of money, and that ireland would have spent this amount on own labour anyway. This in no way at all justifies the 33 billion! euros that Ireland recieved from the EU.

Thing is, the EU helped Ireland out of its 3rd world country status, and made sure that Ireland could be up to par to other EU countries. That Ireland misbehaves and has ridicoulous prices on housing, letting, food, clothing compared to other EU countries, and people coming here for 17k a year and hardly being able to survive, is plain rude, irish did not get this country up out of the gutter, so stop being proud for the wrong reasons! Irish culture / mentality = great, be proud of that. Irish new found wealth and the people having it hands that can not treat it well and because of this have tens of thousands of euro's in debt, while having 2 houses and 2 cars, is just plain idiotic.

Please use the EU money to make a stable, welfaring economic enviroment of Irland, and then complain about stuff.

Eastern europeans coming to Ireland only has given the country cheap, hardworking and precise labourers. All the work done would have cost way more if it was done by Irish. This is not 'What Ireland did for the EU' this is what other EU members did for Ireland!

p.s. Im not an eastern european.

So what you're saying is that 300,000 immigrants arrived, depressed wages, but also had the affect of feeding the property bubble.

Score!!!!

thehighground

karen3212 wrote: »

Sorry, I am too brain dead to go right through the article, could you tell me did they mention how high unemployment was in France at the time?

Seems to me there is no point in letting immigrants in if the natives are unemployed and start going around filling up their time by beating up decent, want to work hard, lovely immigrants.

So, in other words, France looks after its own interests first and to hell with being a 'good' European. Now, if Ireland does the same thing, its a 'bad' European

thehighground

MrParanoid wrote: »

"Let's do a little calculation. We have close to 300,000 immigrants working from the new accession states here. Let's say they are on a wage between the minimum wage of €17,000 and the average wage of close to €35,000 a year. So let's say €25,000. That's a total wage bill of €7.5bn per year."

Come on, you really think that all the work could/would have been done by the irish themselfs for the same salary, fact is that this saved ireland a lot of money, and that ireland would have spent this amount on own labour anyway. This in no way at all justifies the 33 billion! euros that Ireland recieved from the EU.

Thing is, the EU helped Ireland out of its 3rd world country status, and made sure that Ireland could be up to par to other EU countries. That Ireland misbehaves and has ridicoulous prices on housing, letting, food, clothing compared to other EU countries, and people coming here for 17k a year and hardly being able to survive, is plain rude, irish did not get this country up out of the gutter, so stop being proud for the wrong reasons! Irish culture / mentality = great, be proud of that. Irish new found wealth and the people having it hands that can not treat it well and because of this have tens of thousands of euro's in debt, while having 2 houses and 2 cars, is just plain idiotic.

Please use the EU money to make a stable, welfaring economic enviroment of Irland, and then complain about stuff.

Eastern europeans coming to Ireland only has given the country cheap, hardworking and precise labourers. All the work done would have cost way more if it was done by Irish. This is not 'What Ireland did for the EU' this is what other EU members did for Ireland!

p.s. Im not an eastern european.

I'd say any Irish person over the age of 35 has a very good understanding of the contribution that all these accession States are contributing to Ireland. After all, our 80 million diaspora built their fair share of other countries as cheap labour - particularly in the UK in the 50s which was recovering from World War 11 and needed cheap labour as their cities had been bombed by the Germans and their own male workforce killed in the war.

Also remember why the Lativians, Poles etc. are very poor now. Thats right - the British, French and Germans handed them over to Communist Russia - not us.

Corniger

MrParanoid wrote: »

"Let's do a little calculation. We have close to 300,000 immigrants working from the new accession states here. Let's say they are on a wage between the minimum wage of €17,000 and the average wage of close to €35,000 a year. So let's say €25,000. That's a total wage bill of €7.5bn per year."

25.000 a year? Average? For immigrants? I'd be happy to earn 17.000, and in my country I'm neither an immigrant nor a low-level worker... I'd like to compare the housing costs...

I'd say, the EU works both ways somehow - but nonetheless the immigrants are being severely exploited, if you think about it. Life would be a lot more expensive without them. Of course, they earn more money than at home, but they have to LEAVE their home, and not too many are happy to do so. If the EU really would "help", they'd earn that much right where they are. In fact, "we" just buy their businesses, then close them and bring in a foreign branch where they but earn a polish salary (also called "generous investment", like in Ex-Yugoslavia...) They pay their money to be a member, and all they get is "investments". Hungary, for example, was paying for years before they even saw a dime.

France is the origin of the EU, thus they change it any way they want - so I'm not sure whether to support the exploited immigrants (that for a larger part I'd <sub>consciously also would prefer to be gone) that threaten to overrun us, because we need them, or the governments and people afraid of their violent acts (like in Paris) and foreign culture. The correlation between immigrants and economy is too strong to sever, yet I can't tell to which percentage "the immigrants" exploit us, because, on the one hand, media always try to retouch and hush, but on the other hand entice us to hate them.

"Divide and conquer" is the law, watch your backs!</sub>

Biro

MrParanoid wrote: »

"Let's do a little calculation. We have close to 300,000 immigrants working from the new accession states here. Let's say they are on a wage between the minimum wage of €17,000 and the average wage of close to €35,000 a year. So let's say €25,000. That's a total wage bill of €7.5bn per year."

Come on, you really think that all the work could/would have been done by the irish themselfs for the same salary, fact is that this saved ireland a lot of money, and that ireland would have spent this amount on own labour anyway. This in no way at all justifies the 33 billion! euros that Ireland recieved from the EU.

Why doesn't it? 7.5bn per year, 4 years.... And that says nothing of the fishing industry!

MrParanoid wrote: »

Thing is, the EU helped Ireland out of its 3rd world country status, and made sure that Ireland could be up to par to other EU countries. That Ireland misbehaves and has ridicoulous prices on housing, letting, food, clothing compared to other EU countries, and people coming here for 17k a year and hardly being able to survive, is plain rude, irish did not get this country up out of the gutter, so stop being proud for the wrong reasons! Irish culture / mentality = great, be proud of that. Irish new found wealth and the people having it hands that can not treat it well and because of this have tens of thousands of euro's in debt, while having 2 houses and 2 cars, is just plain idiotic.

Somewhat agree with this.

MrParanoid wrote: »

Eastern europeans coming to Ireland only has given the country cheap, hardworking and precise labourers. All the work done would have cost way more if it was done by Irish. This is not 'What Ireland did for the EU' this is what other EU members did for Ireland!

But most of that money is going back to their country of origin. If we spent it on Irish workers at least most of it would stay in the economy.
And if you have that view point then should we not be cashing cheques from all the countries that Irish people have worked in for less than the locals?
A foreigner can come in here, get housed and a free FAS course, I have to pay if I want to do one. We're hardly screwing them over!

Corniger

Biro wrote: »

A foreigner can come in here, get housed and a free FAS course, I have to pay if I want to do one. We're hardly screwing them over!

I feel the same in my country (though it depends where you come from) - but that's just the bait they give them, so it's not getting too obvious.

SkepticOne

I made this point a couple of days ago. Cowen may be able to defend the national interest by quietly going to the likes of the Czech republic and reminding them that Germany and France gave them the finger when it came to free movement of labour in Europe.

It is true that Ireland benefited from Eastern European's just like they benefited by not being excluded (like they were in most of Europe). That is what free movement is all about.

Germany, a much larger country than Ireland, would also have benefited from an influx of young energetic workers but they put their own supposed EU principles aside in favour of comfortable xenophobia.

mickoneill30

Biro wrote: »

But most of that money is going back to their country of origin. If we spent it on Irish workers at least most of it would stay in the economy.
And if you have that view point then should we not be cashing cheques from all the countries that Irish people have worked in for less than the locals?

Most of my money goes on rent and groceries. The bit I save isn't huge and I'm on way more than the average wage. Is it different for foreign workers? Have they figured out how to live in Dublin or elsewhere in Ireland cheaper than us?

Biro wrote: »

A foreigner can come in here, get housed and a free FAS course, I have to pay if I want to do one. We're hardly screwing them over!

Don't forget they get free Mercs too. For gods sake do people still believe this crap. Are these guys in any way a majority? Are they refugees by any chance?
Most of the people coming here are coming to work. Not for free housing and courses. They come here, they work, they pay their way.

I don't think a guy who gets housed and a free FAS course is sending piles of cash back to where he came from. Do you? If they are where are they getting the money from?

MrParanoid

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Most of my money goes on rent and groceries. The bit I save isn't huge and I'm on way more than the average wage. Is it different for foreign workers? Have they figured out how to live in Dublin or elsewhere in Ireland cheaper than us?



Don't forget they get free Mercs too. For gods sake do people still believe this crap. Are these guys in any way a majority? Are they refugees by any chance?
Most of the people coming here are coming to work. Not for free housing and courses. They come here, they work, they pay their way.

I don't think a guy who gets housed and a free FAS course is sending piles of cash back to where he came from. Do you? If they are where are they getting the money from?

Excactly, im a foreigner (Dutch) but i live and work here, i pay tax, rent, groceries, clothing etc. etc. just like an irish person does, im even spending more than an irish on the economics by making people very happy by paying 1550 euro a month for an appartment in Dublin city centre. By all means im not saving a lot, and im spending a lot, and i think a lot of eastern europeans are indeed sending their 'savings' home, there is no difference between this and putting it in a savings account here.

mickoneill30

MrParanoid wrote: »

im even spending more than an irish on the economics by making people very happy by paying 1550 euro a month for an appartment in Dublin city centre.

Ah see now people can complain about you driving up the rent in Dublin

karen3212

thehighground wrote: »

So, in other words, France looks after its own interests first and to hell with being a 'good' European. Now, if Ireland does the same thing, its a 'bad' European

Sorry, my writing can be confusing. I think they might have been more worried about Polish being beaten to death by native unemployed skangers. It has to be considered.

conceited

What part of no don't they understand anyway?
The treaty is dead and there still going ahead with it ?

thehighground

MrParanoid wrote: »

Excactly, im a foreigner (Dutch) but i live and work here, i pay tax, rent, groceries, clothing etc. etc. just like an irish person does, im even spending more than an irish on the economics by making people very happy by paying 1550 euro a month for an appartment in Dublin city centre. By all means im not saving a lot, and im spending a lot, and i think a lot of eastern europeans are indeed sending their 'savings' home, there is no difference between this and putting it in a savings account here.

Wasn't it a Dutch company that was exploiting Turkish workers here a few years ago - wages were being paid in Holland? See, the Irish are not the worst offenders when it comes to exploiting eastern Europeans.

Bravo Joe Higgins for sorting that one out.

is_that_so

thehighground wrote: »

So, in other words, France looks after its own interests first and to hell with being a 'good' European. Now, if Ireland does the same thing, its a 'bad' European

That's the EU for you and they are not doing anything that any other country wouldn't do. We all do it. Our own stands , especially on things like CAP have also come from a purely domestic agenda. As they say all politics are local.

Gone West

Great article, I've been a longtime fan of McWilliams.
At a tent in Electric Picnic this year I heard him make this exact point about EU subsidies and wages going back east.

marco_polo

thehighground wrote: »

Wasn't it a Dutch company that was exploiting Turkish workers here a few years ago - wages were being paid in Holland? See, the Irish are not the worst offenders when it comes to exploiting eastern Europeans.

Bravo Joe Higgins for sorting that one out.

It was Gama a Turkish company exploiting Turkish workers.

marco_polo

conceited wrote: »

What part of no don't they understand anyway?
The treaty is dead and there still going ahead with it ?

Who exactly is they? Our fellow member EU states are rightly continuing with their own independant national ratification processes on this treaty.

thehighground

marco_polo wrote: »

It was Gama a Turkish company exploiting Turkish workers.

But somehow or other, their wages were being 'held' in a bank account in Holland, so the Dutch were obviously condoning this practice and exploiting Turkish workers.

torez07

ok

Neamhshuntasach

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Most of my money goes on rent and groceries. The bit I save isn't huge and I'm on way more than the average wage. Is it different for foreign workers? Have they figured out how to live in Dublin or elsewhere in Ireland cheaper than us?

Without branding them all i find that more of them live to a house than the average Irish person and they work longer hours which leaves them with less time to spend money and because there are more in the house/apartment the rent is cheaper. In my estate i find it difficult to hear an Irish accent when walking around so that gives an insight into the amount living around me. And i notice that 6+ of them live in a 3/4 bedroom house. My 2 neighbors on either side of me are Polish and they both have 5 people in each house with wages coming in. None of them drive so they don't have petrol costs, they shop in lidl and rarely go out to the pub on binges the way a lot of Irish people do. I've talked to a few of them from my estate as they go to the same gym as me. And they say that even though Ireland is expensive that they can save enough here to buy a house in Poland easily by doing without all the extra commodities. I'm going away traveling for a few years later this year and i have been living cheaply and been able to save a rake load of money this year. So it can be done.

SkepticOne

This thread is about EU citizens supposedly freely moving between EU countries benefiting both themselves and the economy of the EU.

This is not exploitation.

What is exploitation is only allowing certain citizens to move and then restricting them to certain jobs or professions. Then they can be taken advantage of by their employers who know that they don't compete on the same basis as citizens of the employers' country.

France and Germany chose exploitation. Ireland did not.

marco_polo

thehighground wrote: »

But somehow or other, their wages were being 'held' in a bank account in Holland, so the Dutch were obviously condoning this practice and exploiting Turkish workers.

That is one hell of a mighty leap of logic to make. So I take it you would condone a national governement monitoring all bank accounts. And also to monitor the wage rates getting paid to employees of a turkish company in Ireland to boot. :rolleyes:

thehighground

FuzzyLogic wrote: »

Great article, I've been a longtime fan of McWilliams.
At a tent in Electric Picnic this year I heard him make this exact point about EU subsidies and wages going back east.

Not to mention the Polish claiming their 'Children's Allowance' here because it is greater than what it is in Poland. Saves the Polish Government a few bob as well! (I don't have a problem with them doing this).

I suppose when Ireland is kicked out of the EU by 'our partners' for not voting the way the French & German Gov. want us to do, both the French & German Goverments will welcome all these Eastern European workers who will leave Ireland because they can't find work, into their own countries.

Biro

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Most of my money goes on rent and groceries. The bit I save isn't huge and I'm on way more than the average wage. Is it different for foreign workers? Have they figured out how to live in Dublin or elsewhere in Ireland cheaper than us?



Don't forget they get free Mercs too. For gods sake do people still believe this crap. Are these guys in any way a majority? Are they refugees by any chance?
Most of the people coming here are coming to work. Not for free housing and courses. They come here, they work, they pay their way.

I don't think a guy who gets housed and a free FAS course is sending piles of cash back to where he came from. Do you? If they are where are they getting the money from?

You're going by Dublin only. There is life outside the capital!
The merc's comment is just silly.
And I was making a point, not complaining.

thehighground

marco_polo wrote: »

That is one hell of a mighty leap of logic to make. So I take it you would condone a national governement monitoring all bank accounts. And also to monitor the wage rates getting paid to employees of a turkish company in Ireland to boot. :rolleyes:

Well, there was some reason that it was a Dutch bank - not an Irish or Turkish bank mind.

As far as I can recall, it was a very strange arrangement - these Turkish workers had to open an account in this particular bank to get paid and then they couldn't withdraw the money for a certain amount of time.

It was very dodgy what they had done anyway. But we all know how dodgy the banking sector are and probably could do with a lot more Government monitoring!

mickoneill30

Biro wrote: »

The merc's comment is just silly.

Absolutely. Just like the one for foreigners coming here to get free housing and free FAS courses.

marco_polo

thehighground wrote: »

Well, there was some reason that it was a Dutch bank - not an Irish or Turkish bank mind.

As far as I can recall, it was a very strange arrangement - these Turkish workers had to open an account in this particular bank to get paid and then they couldn't withdraw the money for a certain amount of time.

It was very dodgy what they had done anyway. But we all know how dodgy the banking sector are and probably could do with a lot more Government monitoring!

None of that backs up your allegation that the Dutch government (one of the most progressive in the world) was condoning or aware of the mistreatment of the Irish Gama workers in any shape or form.