Do you honestly think the Lisbon Treaty was negotiated for the people's good???

Irish and Proud

IMO, this Lisbon Treaty is really another step towards the goal of Globalisation, which as many of us know, is for the good of a few. If the EU politicians were really concerned about the people they supposedly represent, then citizens would be given a greater role in the shaping of a future Europe - like facilitating referendums in all 27 countries. I would take aspects like the citizens initiative and the greater role for the European Parliament in EU decision making with a few grains of salt – this I think is merely a PR exercise to blind us from the truth. My suspicion is that the Lisbon Treaty is aimed at exercising much greater control over the people of Europe - something that would be done gradually!


VOTE NO 2 LISBON 2

Scofflaw

Irish and Proud wrote: »

IMO, this Lisbon Treaty is really another step towards the goal of Globalisation, which as many of us know, is for the good of a few. If the EU politicians were really concerned about the people they supposedly represent, then citizens would be given a greater role in the shaping of a future Europe - like facilitating referendums in all 27 countries. I would take aspects like the citizens initiative and the greater role for the European Parliament in EU decision making with a few grains of salt – this I think is merely a PR exercise to blind us from the truth. My suspicion is that the Lisbon Treaty is aimed at exercising much greater control over the people of Europe - something that would be done gradually!

VOTE NO 2 LISBON 2

Unless you can point me to some completely fundamental change in the EU (on the order of a military coup inside the Commission and Council, and armed soldiers in the Parliament), then I think the EU's 50-year track record speaks for itself.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Kaiser_Sma

First of all i don't think you don't know what globalisation is. The european union by definition is an effort in globilization. If your speaking purely from an economic perspective, then globaliztion does not benefit the few. With exceptions it is primarly protectionism (the exact opposite to globilization) which benefits the few. Of course from a nationalistic perspective, a protectionist environment is beneficial to your countrymen, the rest of the world bedamned.

I think you'll find that not everything in politics can be ground down to the endless struggle between the enlightened prolitariat and the evil machine of the political elite.

PH01

Aren't politicians elected by the people? They represent us all. And when they negotiated treatys they do so on our behalf.
They've reached a consensus - you get some of the things you want but usually not everything.

In general it's for the people's, all the people's good.

Duffman

Irish and Proud wrote: »

IMO, this Lisbon Treaty is really another step towards the goal of Globalisation, which as many of us know, is for the good of a few.

The EU countries haven't exactly enthusiastically embraced globalisation now, have they? The CAP hardly champions free and open global markets.

See what I did there? I said something, then I supported it with an example. What are you talking about?

Irish and Proud wrote: »

I would take aspects like the citizens initiative and the greater role for the European Parliament in EU decision making with a few grains of salt – this I think is merely a PR exercise to blind us from the truth.

Srsly dude, what "truth"? WTF are you talking about? We have countless European treaties over more than 50 years and we have seen more and more power shift to the Parliament. Hell, the Parliament was given so much power that it was able to grab more for itself without a treaty in the 90s.

I'll take history and law as truth over zomg conspiracy!.

Irish and Proud wrote: »

VOTE NO 2 LISBON 2

Vote NO to stupidity

molloyjh

Irish and Proud wrote: »

If the EU politicians were really concerned about the people they supposedly represent, then citizens would be given a greater role in the shaping of a future Europe

Yes, after all the fact that we directly elect the MEPs and directly elect our national Governments that make up the council of ministers and put forward a Commissioner it is obvious that democracy is seriously lacking in the EU isn't it!? :rolleyes:

Irish and Proud wrote: »

like facilitating referendums in all 27 countries

Given that referendums are not even legal in some EU countries this might not actually be possible. In fact given that the Treaty was/will be ratified according to each member states laws means that how it is ratified is in no way an EU matter, but instead a socerign domestic one for each member state. Oh I'm getting so sick of trotting that one out.

Irish and Proud wrote: »

My suspicion is that the Lisbon Treaty is aimed at exercising much greater control over the people of Europe - something that would be done gradually!

Yes, its all a conspiracy. As the song says this could be a case for Mulder and Scully.......
The truth is out there I&P!!!!!:cool:

Kama

If you can reconceptualise the 'conspiracy' as the Power Elite in C. Wright Mills terms, consider Davos undemocratic, and the Superclass a more self-conscious form of a longrunning trend in oligopolistic corporate capitalism, you don't need riot police and a facist coup d'etat. You just need democratic disengagement and elite self-interest. As Greg Palast says, who needs hidden smoky rooms when you have a nice corporate boardroom?

sink

Kama wrote: »

If you can reconceptualise the 'conspiracy' as the Power Elite in C. Wright Mills terms, consider Davos undemocratic, and the Superclass a more self-conscious form of a longrunning trend in oligopolistic corporate capitalism, you don't need riot police and a facist coup d'etat. You just need democratic disengagement and elite self-interest. As Greg Palast says, who needs hidden smoky rooms when you have a nice corporate boardroom?

And Rupert Murdoch feeds the proletariats fears through scare stories about the unelected undemocratic bureaucrats in Brussels when they really should be scared of Rupert Murdoch and his ilk.

free-man

Actually.. bankers are the people you should be scared of...

Their ability to lawfully invent money from nothing is diabolical, I've yet to hear one rebuttal from friends who are well versed in this area..

If you don't believe me check out the below videos:

Corrupt banking industry 1

Corrupt banking industry 2

Corrupt banking industry 3

Irish and Proud

I read a few of the posts and to say the least, some of you guys seem so naive!

Can you not see what is happening in the USA (the type of state that the EU seems to be becoming - or trying to! )? Do you not think the American industry and the political elite look rather cosy together? - Is this the model you want for the EU? - If in doubt, just look at the Bush administration, the oil industry, arms industry, fast food chains, health sector etc. as well as much of the media! Yes, Bush was elected by the people (well on the second term that is!), but on what grounds??? Mind you, Barack might stir things up a little over there - I really hope he wins!!!

Now, in the EU, would it not be plausible that many EU politicians are feeling the heat in their own countries over corruption, and that by creating an EU super-state that over-rides the laws of the said countries, they create a safe haven for themselves? Also, the EU commission offices were raided by police only last year - what does that say about the EU? Also, would it not seem plausible that many of the EU leaders are rather power hungry and would like to be in the mix of what dictates world affairs? I suppose the answer is that EU leaders are beyond that sort of thinking - well, if that's the case, why is the rattle flying out of the pram when the Irish people vote No, and why don't the people of other EU countries have the right to a vote in relation to Lisbon.

Also, do you honestly think that most EU meetings take place behind closed doors, because they are looking after the best interests of the people - and especially, giving the people what they want? :rolleyes:

Oh, come on guys!


VOTE NO 2 LISBON 2

kevteljeur

A strong, centralised EU is capable of fighting for itself and for resources in the world; individual countries of Europe are not. Less so small, sparsely-populated countries of 4m, which are physically separated from the others...

ionix5891

another paranoia induced rant from a NO supporter (i think i will link to this thread in my signature)

Irish and Proud wrote: »

like facilitating referendums in all 27 countries.

once again Spain and Luxembourg have voted YES in their referendums its just never mentioned (despite France's and Netherland's NO vote always being brought up)

referendums in some of the other countries like Germany are offensive to them due to this dude called Hitler

i dont understand how these NO supporters keep shouting "Respect our democracy" yet completely dis-respect the democracy of other countries


i suspect this fella is trolling or another boatload of weed has arrived in this country

Irish and Proud wrote: »

I read some of the posts and to say the least, you guys seem no naive!



Can you not see what is happening in the USA

:rolleyes:

If in doubt, just look at the Bush administration, the oil industry, arms industry, fast food chains, health sector

you should go on a trip around Europe, Ireland is sadly the most Americanized of the countries I have been in

sink

Irish and Proud wrote: »

I read some of the posts and to say the least, you guys seem no naive!

Can you not see what is happening in the USA (the type of state that the EU seems to be becoming - or trying to! )? Do you not think the American industry and the political elite look rather cosy together? - Is this the model you want for the EU? - If in doubt, just look at the Bush administration, the oil industry, arms industry, fast food chains, health sector etc. as well as much of the media! Yes, Bush was elected by the people (well on the second term that is!), but on what grounds??? Mind you, Barack might stir things up a little over there - I really hope he wins!!!

The EU is evolving into a closely unified group of members who co-operate on a broad range of issues which can be better handled at a supranational level. The individual member states still have all the power and the structure of the EU has absolutely no resemblance to the US. They look about the same as Brian Cowen and Brad Pitt. The ECJ is the most powerful competition court in the world. It split up Microsoft and fined it millions, the largest fines ever handed out. It's currently investigating BAE's dodgy deals with Saudi Arabia and many other cases. If the EU was such a cosy partner for Billionaire business men why would people like Rupert Murdoc be so against it?

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Now, in the EU, would it not be plausible that many EU politicians are feeling the heat in their own countries over corruption, and that by creating an EU super-state that over-rides the laws of the said countries, they create a safe haven for themselves? Also, the EU commission offices were raided by police only last year - what does that say about the EU? Also, would it not seem plausible that many of the EU leaders are rather power hungry and would like to be in the mix of what dictates world affairs? I suppose the answer is that EU leaders are beyond that sort of thinking - well, if that's the case, why is the rattle flying out of the pram when the Irish people vote No, and why don't the people of other EU countries have the right to a vote in relation to Lisbon.

Also, do you honestly think that most EU meetings take place behind closed doors, because they are looking after the best interests of the people - and especially, giving the people what they want? :rolleyes:

Oh, come on guys!

There are 27 members in the EU. To get them to agree on anything is remarkable accomplishment. A lot of them hate each other and would like nothing better than to stab each other in the back. Their fights can be quiet public and you can see their distaste for one another. Yet somehow you believe they are all in a cosy little club scratching each others backs. Mate, you're off your rocker. You are seeing conspiracies because that's want you want to see. You're filtering out all the mountains of evidence to the contrary and grabbing hold of any little coincidental detail and holding it up as evidence of some grand conspiracy.

turgon

Irish and Proud wrote: »

My suspicion

No personal offense intended, but suspicion is usually the tool of ignorance.

marco_polo

Irish and Proud wrote: »

I read some of the posts and to say the least, you guys seem no naive!

Can you not see what is happening in the USA (the type of state that the EU seems to be becoming - or trying to! )? Do you not think the American industry and the political elite look rather cosy together? - Is this the model you want for the EU? - If in doubt, just look at the Bush administration, the oil industry, arms industry, fast food chains, health sector etc. as well as much of the media! Yes, Bush was elected by the people (well on the second term that is!), but on what grounds??? Mind you, Barack might stir things up a little over there - I really hope he wins!!!

Successive US Administrations have been far too close to big business and the lobbists have far too much influence on Capitol Hill. That is the main reason why the US lags far behind the EU on Labour laws, workplace health and safety, Industry regulation, Climate change etc.

The relevance of the US presedential election is what exactly?

Now, in the EU, would it not be plausible that many EU politicians are feeling the heat in their own countries over corruption, and that by creating an EU super-state that over-rides the laws of the said countries, they create a safe haven for themselves?

Not a shred of evidence to support any of this nonsense. By the way who are these politicians that are creating a safe haven for life in the EU? I was under the impression that MEPs were elected for a set term, commisioners appointed for a set term and the leaders of the member states are in power only long enough as their people allow. So they will be long gone before any of the benefits kick in. Unless you are suggesting that every single person that has ever been elected to office in the EU is in on the scam.

Also, the EU commission offices were raided by police only last year - what does that say about the EU?

Some corrupt EU civil servants. Regrettable yes, is this somehow unique to commission employees? Greed people are found in all prefessions and walks of life.

Also, would it not seem plausible that many of the EU leaders are rather power hungry and would like to be in the mix of what dictates world affairs? I suppose the answer is that EU leaders are beyond that sort of thinking - well, if that's the case, why is the rattle flying out of the pram when the Irish people vote No, and why don't the people of other EU countries have the right to a vote in relation to Lisbon.

What is wrong with Europe having a strong voice on the international stage? Considering your opnions on America you of all people should be in favour of this.

Again the tone of your language implies that being an "EU leader" is some sort of job for life or something like that. Eu leaders are meerly the currently elected representatives of each member state.

Also, do you honestly think that most EU meetings take place behind closed doors, because they are looking after the best interests of the people - and especially, giving the people what they want? :rolleyes:

Oh, come on guys!

The council of Ministers meeting were due to become public when the Lisbon passed, and the European parliament sessions are held in public.

I think you are spend far too much time watching youtube videos with free-man and Jim Corr.

towel401

marco_polo wrote: »

Not a shred of evidence to support any of this nonsense. By the way who are these politicians that are creating a safe haven for life in the EU? I was under the impression that MEPs were elected for a set term, commisioners appointed for a set term and the leaders of the member states are in power only long enough as their people allow. So they will be long gone before any of the benefits kick in. Unless you are suggesting that every single person that has ever been elected to office in the EU is in on the scam.



Some corrupt EU civil servants. Regrettable yes, is this somehow unique to commission employees? Greed people are found in all prefessions and walks of life.



What is wrong with Europe having a strong voice on the international stage? Considering your opnions on America you of all people should be in favour of this.

Again the tone of your language implies that being an "EU leader" is some sort of job for life or something like that. Eu leaders are meerly the currently elected representatives of each member state.



The council of Ministers meeting were due to become public when the Lisbon passed, and the European parliament sessions are held in public.

I think you are spend far too much time watching youtube videos with free-man and Jim Corr.

A couple of years ago there was a controversial attempt to get some unpopular "software patent" law into the EU, then they found out that one of the commisioners was going on free boat rides with a former Microsoft staffer.

of course the less commisioners there are, the more chance there is of this kind of unpopular stuff getting through. the EU has already gone too far by pushing down way too many regulations that were never needed (car test for example) and things like the lisbon treaty will only empower it more

Ireland is already becoming way too much like those boring Benelux and other european countries so soon nobody will bother coming here. why would anyone come to ireland when they can visit a nearly identical country that is closer to them? the only thing that will be slightly different is the landscape.

Scofflaw

towel401 wrote: »

A couple of years ago there was a controversial attempt to get some unpopular "software patent" law into the EU, then they found out that one of the commisioners was going on free boat rides with a former Microsoft staffer.

Out of interest, do you think of the EU as more or less corrupt than our own government?

towel401 wrote: »

of course the less commisioners there are, the more chance there is of this kind of unpopular stuff getting through. the EU has already gone too far by pushing down way too many regulations that were never needed (car test for example) and things like the lisbon treaty will only empower it more

Well, no, because, you see, Commissioners don't vote.

towel401 wrote: »

Ireland is already becoming way too much like those boring Benelux and other european countries so soon nobody will bother coming here. why would anyone come to ireland when they can visit a nearly identical country that is closer to them? the only thing that will be slightly different is the landscape.

That is a feature of affluence. We would undoubtedly be more picturesque if we were out of the EU. I would certainly come here on holiday.

cordially,
Scofflaw

marco_polo

towel401 wrote: »

A couple of years ago there was a controversial attempt to get some unpopular "software patent" law into the EU, then they found out that one of the commisioners was going on free boat rides with a former Microsoft staffer.

There was also a little anti-trust case a few years later, remember that? Not a great boost for big business.

of course the less commisioners there are, the more chance there is of this kind of unpopular stuff getting through. the EU has already gone too far by pushing down way too many regulations that were never needed (car test for example) and things like the lisbon treaty will only empower it more

EU legislation is the most progressive in the world in many areas such as Labour, Health and Safety, Industry and competition regulation and environment lae. Are you suggesting that the NCT is a bad idea in principal? (I have a few issue with how it is run myself, but thats a topic for the motors forum)

Ireland is already becoming way too much like those boring Benelux and other european countries so soon nobody will bother coming here. why would anyone come to ireland when they can visit a nearly identical country that is closer to them? the only thing that will be slightly different is the landscape.

Unforunately the entire world is becomming a homogenous to some degree, Starbucks, McDonalds everywhere etc, etc. A fairly reasonable point but I am not sure that is an exclusivley an EU problem by any means.

thehighground

ionix5891 wrote: »

once again Spain and Luxembourg have voted YES in their referendums its just never mentioned (despite France's and Netherland's NO vote always being brought up)

1. Spain hasn't been a democracy for very long (and didn't they do well with the fishing
2. Luxembourg is at the heart of the EU - its population is half a million and most of them probably work for, or derive their livelihood from the EU anyway. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

Also Population of:
Spain 40m, Luxembourg: 0.5 million.
France 60m, Netherlands 17m.

towel401

yea just shows that they havn't completely mastered the art of lobbying the EU, but they will soon. it will be just like Capitol Hill filled to the top with resident lobbyists. who cares which is more corrupt, its obviously easier to lobby the EU than to go after each little country individually. if somebody can get laws past the commisioners then thats half the job done

over the past few years the EU has past some of the most ridiculous laws that our own government couldnt come up with if they tried. just because a group of city-dwelling Eurocrats think that something is a good idea doesn't mean it actually is. i'd rather these guys have as little power as possible. the stuff they come up with isn't all bad, but a lot of it is just a nuisance. Every year there are a few more once considered normal things that you can't do anymore because of EU regulations.

marco_polo

thehighground wrote: »

1. Spain hasn't been a democracy for very long (and didn't they do well with the fishing
2. Luxembourg is at the heart of the EU - its population is half a million and most of them probably work for, or derive their livelihood from the EU anyway. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

Also Population of:
Spain 40m, Luxembourg: 0.5 million.
France 60m, Netherlands 17m.

But I thought all countries voices should be treated equally and stuff. I though a No voter of all people would score that 2-2.

marco_polo

towel401 wrote: »

yea just shows that they havn't completely mastered the art of lobbying the EU, but they will soon. it will be just like Capitol Hill filled to the top with resident lobbyists. who cares which is more corrupt, its obviously easier to lobby the EU than to go after each little country individually. if somebody can get laws past the commisioners then thats half the job done

over the past few years the EU has past some of the most ridiculous laws that our own government couldnt come up with if they tried. just because a group of city-dwelling Eurocrats think that something is a good idea doesn't mean it actually is. i'd rather these guys have as little power as possible. the stuff they come up with isn't all bad, but a lot of it is just a nuisance. Every year there are a few more once considered normal things that you can't do anymore because of EU regulations.

The Commission is making great strides to make lobbist more accountable.

http://www.euractiv.com/en/pa/commission-sets-june-date-lobbyists-register/article-172269

It is very easy and very lazy to throw wild and unsubstantiated corruption allegations around without a shred of evidence whatsoever. Of course on the off chance of a getting dodgy legislation past a corrupt commisioner they would be home free, the other half of the job is the trival task of getting it past the European parliament. How many dodgy MEPS would one need to lobby for that again?

towel401

marco_polo wrote: »

But I thought all countries voices should be treated equally and stuff. I though a No voter of all people would score that 2-2.

still doesn't change the fact that the people of luxembourg were bribed with the shipment of half a million free pineapples to their country

marco_polo

towel401 wrote: »

still doesn't change the fact that the people of luxembourg were bribed with the shipment of half a million free pineapples to their country

Oh what a parting shot. Is your pit of ignorance bottomless?

WTF is that supposed to mean?

pirelli

The treaty was not considered properly by either side. The Yes side felt it was there job as an EEC country to promote any EEC treaty. Why was there even a NO side.

Simi

4:42 pretty much sums up my opinion of people who voted no.

Tar.Aldarion

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Also, do you honestly think that most EU meetings take place behind closed doors, because they are looking after the best interests of the people - and especially, giving the people what they want? :rolleyes:

Oh, come on guys!

I love the irony.

They tried to make the meetings public with lisbon, those dastardly meanies furthering their goals.

AngryHippie

Pineapples for some, small EU flags for others.....Yay

Overall I think it was negotiated for the peoples good, as every country's input was for the better of their own national interest, As the national interest generally serves the people of the country, then would it not be better for most people ? especially as no country got "shafted" as it were...except us with our unique ability to shaft ourselves:D

headphone

IMO It is farcical that Ireland, after hundred's of years of being dominated and oppressed by England, takes her hard won freedom and shreds it as if her constitution's papers were no more than yesterday's news.

So enamored by the money flooded in by the EEC in the early days, when the British had been so ungenerous and greedy, Ireland is about to be sucked into a becoming just a set of adjacent regions of an autocratic state far worse than that she struggled from the chains of.

Former President of Germany, Roman Herzog put it well in March when he said “People have an ever-increasing feeling that something is going wrong, that an nontransparent, complex, mammoth institution has evolved: divorced from practical problems and national traditions, grabbing ever greater competences and areas of power; that the democratic control mechanisms are failing – in short, that it cannot go on like this.” If this treaty is passed and once the people of Ireland come to realize what is in it, trust in EU may be irrevocably undermined – there would be a destruction of trust in the European project. A few weeks ago, Charlie McCreevy said that if we say no to the Treaty, Ireland will be the “laughing stock of Europe”. Perhaps he is confusing the Europe of the gilded unaccountable Brussels elite with the 500 million citizens of Europe who are being given no say in this matter and, if they were, would reject this treaty out of hand. I'd ask McCreevy, will the elite be laughing at the half billion people of Europe who, along with the Irish people, have had enough of their arrogance and contempt for democracy. Only a united Europe can have a say in history and in its own future. The solidarity of the people of Europe is paramount to the future success of the EU and that solidarity can only be nurtured and re-enforced by real democratic accountability.

FrankGrimes

I have to say the level of paranoia hyperbole, and conspiracy theories from no voters on this thread is laughable, even moreso when the reality that the Lisbon treaty itself has nothing to do with almost all of the points raised.

There's plenty of balanced, intelligent arguments coming from plenty of no voters on this forum, but those posters generally refrain from the fairly extreme views shown on this thread, probably not just cos they don't feel that way, but also as they realise coming out with things like 'come on guys' just smacks of the condescending attitude that the yes campaign was so guilty of.

But comments like Towel's "the less commisioners there are, the more chance there is of this kind of unpopular stuff getting through" comments suggest a fundamental ignorance of how the EU actually works, which suggests his no stance was formulated on something other than the reality of how the EU actually works or what the Lisbon treaty actually contains. Maybe he's just anti-EU for whatever reason and he's fully entitled to that opinion. However, again that goes against everything the no campaign publicly stated time and again 'we are not anti-EU, just anti-Lisbon'....the more people I see on here with right-wing anti-EU opinions, the more I feel that was just electioneering.

I will always fully respect anybody's opinion on any subject no matter how it differs to my own opinion so long as its an informed opinion. Maybe I shouldn't, but when it's clear someone is arguing for something they have not taken the time to inform themselves on, I can't help but take less notice of their opinion.

But anyways, the main reason I'm posting on this thread and not just throwing my eyes up at comments I have little time for (eh, pineapples and Luxembourg?) is that I see a fundamental theme with several posts on this forum, generally from people with quite strong views: they seem to be quite poorly informed on how the EU is structured, how it works, what the role of the Commissioners is etc.

So, I suggest a sticky be added with links to good, laymans terms introductions to how the EU works, and I think posters like Scofflaw and turgon to name just 2 would have sufficient knowledge to give a few paragraphs of explanatory text. This text would be completely objective and impartial and should avoid talking about the pros and cons - it should just state the facts. We could direct a poster to this thread every time there seems to be confusion around the workings of the EU and it would be of particular benefit for demystifying the common references to 'Brussels' that always seem to have negative connotations. Just a suggestion.

K-9

+1

The ignorance applies to both sides as well and it could serve as an informative stickie for many.