Lisbon: One Week On, Anyone got Buyers Remorse?

Agamemnon

I was leaning towards a Yes vote but I had to go to a funeral in another part of the country on the day and missed my chance to vote. Having seen the reactions over the last week, I'm now glad the No side won. EU leaders are coming across as arrogant and contemptuous of the people they should be representing.

andrew

FFS can noone understand why the EU leaders are angry? You spend 7 fecking years, YEARS, drafting up a treaty. Thats just drafting the fecking thing. Not putting policy into place, not actually doing any real work, just drafting a treaty. Then, it gets stopped in its tracks. And why? Not because of some big objection. Oh no. Because people couldn't be bothered to try understand it. Because people just 'didn't like it.' Because people were illogically 'afraid' that horrible things would come to pass. I mean how can people seriously compare the Nazi's to the EU. Seriously,give me just one indication that the EU will turn into a regime which starts the biggest war the world has ever seen and embarks on a course of genocide. Because when you compare the EU to Nazi's thats what you're implying. You're saying that the EU is an aggressor, a huge force for evil, when at the same time you just rejected a treaty which puts into law a charter of rights. Why didn't France and Holland get treated like this? Because after France and Holland there was somewhere to go. People didn't like the anthem, the flag, the fact that it was a constitution etc. so it could be changed and it was. When asked the same question however, Irish people don't have an answer! Didn't like the whole Corpo Tax thing? Well I have (OLD) news for you - it was never gonna happen! Our tax was safe! Yet people voted no because of that (and many other uninformed reasons). So you see now the EU has nowhere to go. We were given the best deal possible, and yet arrogantly expected that we'd get a better deal if we said no. We've stopped it in its tracks, and for no good reason. Well done everyone. Nice one.

/rant over.

McSandwich

andrew wrote: »

FFS can noone understand why the EU leaders are angry? You spend 7 fecking years, YEARS, drafting up a treaty. Thats just drafting the fecking thing. Not putting policy into place, not actually doing any real work, just drafting a treaty. Then, it gets stopped in its tracks. And why? Not because of some big objection. Oh no. Because people couldn't be bothered to try understand it. Because people just 'didn't like it.' Because people were illogically 'afraid' that horrible things would come to pass. I mean how can people seriously compare the Nazi's to the EU. Seriously,give me just one indication that the EU will turn into a regime which starts the biggest war the world has ever seen and embarks on a course of genocide. Because when you compare the EU to Nazi's thats what you're implying. You're saying that the EU is an aggressor, a huge force for evil, when at the same time you just rejected a treaty which puts into law a charter of rights. Why didn't France and Holland get treated like this? Because after France and Holland there was somewhere to go. People didn't like the anthem, the flag, the fact that it was a constitution etc. so it could be changed and it was. When asked the same question however, Irish people don't have an answer! Didn't like the whole Corpo Tax thing? Well I have (OLD) news for you - it was never gonna happen! Our tax was safe! Yet people voted no because of that (and many other uninformed reasons). So you see now the EU has nowhere to go. We were given the best deal possible, and yet arrogantly expected that we'd get a better deal if we said no. We've stopped it in its tracks, and for no good reason. Well done everyone. Nice one.

/rant over.

The condescending tone of this post makes me glad that I voted NO...

Run_to_da_hills

McSandwich wrote: »

This condescending tone of this post makes me glad that I voted NO...

+1

ejmaztec

Does all of this mean that if there is another referendum, everybody's going to vote no because they feel insulted? One reason's as good as another I suppose

Run_to_da_hills

ejmaztec wrote: »

Does all of this mean that if there is another referendum, everybody's going to vote no because they feel insulted? One reason's as good as another I suppose

If there is another referendum i am going to vote no. What do these Euro dictators not understand about the word NO. If we had a yes vote would they make us do the referendum again? Absolutly not.

utick

+1

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

+1

ejmaztec

There're a lot of big 1s on this thread, that's for sure:p

andrew

In before 'you're what's wrong with the yes side.'

RATM

McSandwich wrote: »

The condescending tone of this post makes me glad that I voted NO...

+1

The logic seems to be that the treaty took 7 years to put together, therefore it must be good.....Doh! The Chinese took alot longer than 7 years to build the Great Wall but that didnt stop Genghis Khan bribing the sentry guards to let his troops climb over it.... length of time spent on doing something does not necessarily equate to greatness.

Sure no-one could even understand the thing, why would anyone vote for something they don't understand? Because politicans say so and we should all follow like sheep? Yeah right....

ejmaztec

andrew wrote: »

In before 'you're what's wrong with the yes side.'

titter titter:D

McSandwich

ejmaztec wrote: »

Does all of this mean that if there is another referendum, everybody's going to vote no because they feel insulted? One reason's as good as another I suppose

I would read any new treaty and make my mind up based on its content. However, from what I understand, the treaty cannot and will not be renegotiated. If there is another referendum so that we can accept the same treaty then I will vote NO again. Nothing to do with being insulted, though that doesn't help.

andrew

RATM wrote: »

+1

The logic seems to be that the treaty took 7 years to put together, therefore it must be good

I was actually just saying that the response of other politicians is understandable, considering the amount of work that was put into it only for a handful of people to put a stop to it.

Sure no-one could even understand the thing, why would anyone vote for something they don't understand? Because politicans say so and we should all follow like sheep? Yeah right....

Actually plenty of people understand it. If you don't, then don't vote, simple as. Let the people who have taken the time to understand it vote. I never meant to imply that people should follow politicians blindly, if thats what you think I've meant. Not at all. I think people shouldn't do anything blindly, and that includes voting. Which is what you seem to advocate with your 'dont understand it so vote no' opinion.

javaboy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

If there is another referendum i am going to vote no. What do these Euro dictators not understand about the word NO. If we had a yes vote would they make us do the referendum again? Absolutly not.

Explain to me how they are Euro dictators?

All this ignorant talk of dictators, fascism and Naziism from some people on the No side is what generates the condescension from some people on the Yes side.

If there is another referendum and you think voting no is the right choice then vote no. It's not that big a deal. They're not going to have a referendum every week until they get the answer they want like some sensationalists would have us believe.

tolosenc

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Democracy = People vote and make the decisions.

Dictatorship = Leaders make rules and the people do not have the oppertunity to vote.

Lisbon = Dictatorship.

Wait, did we not vote on it?

Run_to_da_hills

javaboy wrote: »

Explain to me how they are Euro dictators?

All this ignorant talk of dictators, fascism and Naziism from some people on the No side is what generates the condescension from some people on the Yes side.

If there is another referendum and you think voting no is the right choice then vote no. It's not that big a deal. They're not going to have a referendum every week until they get the answer they want like some sensationalists would have us believe.

There is several ways of skinning a cat, if these guys dont get us to vote yes in the next referendum they will try some other way, either way they will bully us into it.

andrew

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There is several ways of skinning a cat, if these guys dont get us to vote yes in the next referendum they will try some other way, either way they will bully us into it.

Yeah but what have they done already which makes you believe that they're dictators. And before you say Nice, Nice 1 wasn't the same as Nice 2. hey made specific changes to accomodate the reasons for which we voted no. Which Seems fair enough really.

Run_to_da_hills

andrew wrote: »

Yeah but what have they done already which makes you believe that they're dictators. And before you say Nice, Nice 1 wasn't the same as Nice 2. hey made specific changes to accomodate the reasons for which we voted no. Which Seems fair enough really.

It will eventually all lead us into the Euro Identity card and that is one thing I do not want. America is already going down that road, ie Real ID Act HR 418 and the card to go with it. Europe no doubt will follow. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act
http://www.unrealid.com/

McSandwich

andrew wrote: »

Yeah but what have they done already which makes you believe that they're dictators.

They spent 7 years reworking the EU Constitution so that it would not require a referendum in any member state... except ours.

Run_to_da_hills

McSandwich wrote: »

They spent 7 years reworking the EU Constitution so that it would not require a referendum in any member state... except ours.

They slipped up, and thought little Ireland would be easy peazy to them to get around and that we would all be gullible and vote yes but they got it wrong

andrew

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It will eventually all lead us into the Euro Identity card and that is one thing I do not want. America is already going down that road, ie Real ID Act HR 418 and the card to go with it. Europe no doubt will follow. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act
http://www.unrealid.com/

The USA is bringing out an ID card. According to you, the EU might do the same. Thats the worst the EU can do then - bring out an ID card?

McSandwich wrote: »

They spent 7 years reworking the EU Constitution so that it would not require a referendum in any member state... except ours.

Creating a document which doesnt require referenda isn't undemocratic. Democracy doesn't mean that everyone gets a vote on everything. TBH I don't think we should've gotten a vote on Lisbon. The govt. should have done what they're elected to do and made the decision for us. Which they could have if they wanted, but thats a different kettle of fish.

rossie1977

andrew wrote: »

Creating a document which doesnt require referenda isn't undemocratic. Democracy doesn't mean that everyone gets a vote on everything. TBH I don't think we should've gotten a vote on Lisbon. The govt. should have done what they're elected to do and made the decision for us. Which they could have if they wanted, but thats a different kettle of fish.

anything which changes the constitution of the country MUST be voted on by the people

jimmycrackcorm

If only we had voted yes then we wouldn't be having any Lisbon Threads afterwards. Funny thing that.

McSandwich

andrew wrote: »

Creating a document which doesnt require referenda isn't undemocratic.

True, but rewriting a document, previously rejected in referenda, so that it will not require a referendum next time around :mad: is hardly in the spirit of democracy.

Democracy doesn't mean that everyone gets a vote on everything. TBH I don't think we should've gotten a vote on Lisbon. The govt. should have done what they're elected to do and made the decision for us. Which they could have if they wanted, but thats a different kettle of fish.

We elected our Government, effectivley giving them power to run the country on our behalf within the laws of the state and previously agreed EU/ International treaties. This does not include relinquishing power or governing rights to any other entity. Thankfully a referendum is required before that can happen.

kowloon

In Soviet Russia Government votes you

BraziliaNZ

Seriously - do you not think the Euros would do a better job managing our country than we would? Visit the mainland and see how well things are run - infrastructure, healthcare, policing, things built on time and under-budget... I would always vote YES for everything to do with Europe because I think our politicians are doing a bad job and I'd rather have Germans or Belgians managing our country to be honest.

rossie1977

yet germany are in a recession for what seems like donkeys years, france has it problems with immigration and italy has corruption at every turn, i think they have enough problems of their own to deal with

and even without them running the show we manage do quite well in human development index, economic freedom, quality of life and sustainablity interestingly enough, well ahead of germany and belgium in all those areas

K-9

rossie1977 wrote: »

yet germany are in a recession for what seems like donkeys years, france has it problems with immigration and italy has corruption at every turn, i think they have enough problems of their own to deal with

and even without them running the show we manage do quite well in human development index, economic freedom, quality of life and sustainablity interestingly enough, well ahead of germany and belgium in all those areas

Any links for Germany being in recession?

Btw, going on the No vote, Ireland has it's problems with immigration.

I can see why France would, with colonies etc. but a country that exported people for decades, I don't know!

javaboy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There is several ways of skinning a cat, if these guys dont get us to vote yes in the next referendum they will try some other way, either way they will bully us into it.

You still haven't justified calling them dictators. And if the Lisbon treaty or any other piece of legislation requires a change to our constitution, then there will have to be a referendum.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They slipped up, and thought little Ireland would be easy peazy to them to get around and that we would all be gullible and vote yes but they got it wrong

It could be argued that some of the groups campaigning for a NO vote correctly guessed that we would all be gullible enough to believe the lies they spouted.

K-9

CtrlSource wrote: »

Please someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't recall the same negative rhetoric being directed at the French & Dutch 3 years ago when they ruled out the Constitution.

Well 6/7 countries ratified the constitution afterwards, including Luxembourg by referendum.

Run_to_da_hills

javaboy wrote: »

It could be argued that some of the groups campaigning for a NO vote correctly guessed that we would all be gullible enough to believe the lies they spouted.

Lies of the NO vote, thats the pot calling the kettle black. The Lisbon treaty is one big deceiving lie.

ART6

Given the petulance of the YES vote and the EU bureaucrats, look at the claims:

1. The member state's governments were democratically elected to represent their people and in ratifying the treaty they were simply applying their mandate.

Were they? Were they all elected on the basis that the people supported the ratification and didn't require or expect to be consulted? Or is it possible that they assumed a mandate for themselves without consulting the people? The UK is a case to point -- a country where the people are in general hostile to any further interference from the EU, were promiosed a referendum, which was then scrapped as the government knew the NO vote would be overwhelming. That is not democracy, and if it is what the EU is to be based upon then the EU will continue by definition to be undemocratic.

2. Anyone who didn't understand the treaty should not have voted.

In a true democracy, when a group seeks election to run the country, people don't make their voting decision in the complete understanding of every policy proposed. They know that in the term of the elected government there will occur issues that could not have been forseen at the time. Therefore they vote having decided that the group they elect will truly represent their interests and will consult them again in the event of any issue that involves major changes to their way of life or government. In other words, a referendum or a general election. Therefore to say that anyone who didn't understand Lisbon should not have voted is to also say that in general elections virtually no-one should vote.

3. Lisbon was simply a tidying up exercise to make the EU more efficient and didn't threaten democracy. Rather, it strengthened it.

By drafting the treaty in such a way as to permit the EU to make future substantial changes to its mandate without any further consultation by referenda is not democracy. It is democratic suicide for the people. It is always possible to make an organisation more efficient by structuring it to have no requirement to consult. That is how boards of directors run companies acting on a mandate from their shareholders, and employees accept that in return for their pay. However, in the case of government the people PAY instead of being paid. They are the shareholders not the employees. It looks to me that many in the NO camp wanted to be shareholders and not employees.

4. A lot of very clever people spent seven years drafting the treaty so it's idiotic to reject it because you didn't understand it.

As said in an earlier post here, the length of time in drafting is no measure of the quality. In any case, Lisbon was a very limited redraft of the EU constitution and it only took two years in preparation because it made few significant changes to that which had been rejected by France and Holland. In business equally very clever people draw up agreements between companies, and it's suprising how often one party finds out later that it has been screwed because it didn't carefully scrutinise the work of the very clever ones. From my perspective, the more clever the people I am dealing with the more careful I become.

5. We will be pushed out into a backwater of Europe now, and we will lose credibility and the support of the EU.

There is little evidence that our 1% of the EU population ever had any particular credibility or influence over its direction. What we actually received was a mass of regulation designed for the purposes of the large European mainland countries without any consideration of whether or not it was relevant to Ireland. Just as one example, we gave up control of our interest rates to the ECB so that when we suffered from rising inflation our government could not carrect it by that means. The ECB rates were set to control the economies of France and Germany, who then needed low interest rates, and so that is what we too got. We are now just beginning to experience the effects of that on our economy. A backwater begins to have some attraction.

6. The EU has delivered peace throughout Europe and so should be supported in it's development and expansion.

No it didn't. It simply stopped Germany having another go at France had they chosen to, but there is no evidence that the Germans had any desire to try that again. Equally there is no evidence that any other EU country had aggressive intentions to another. The EU didn't deliver peace if no-one planned war.

7. The EU turned Ireland from a basket case into a thriving economy and should, therefore, be supported through Lisbon.

Did it? It essentially took control of our economy through the ECB, but it didn't attempt to tailor it to the needs of the country. Instead it allowed rampant inflation, interest rates that were dangerously low in a time of local inflation, an a resulting wild over growth of the property market. The Celtic Tiger has now died through over indulgence and we can return to our basket.

Personally I am a firm believer in a common European market with no barriers or tariffs, but that doesn't mean I want to hand over control of my business or my country to that market. That is not normally considered good business sense.

gixerfixer

If anything it's reinforced my view on the corrupt state of the EU. The threaty should be dead in the water now and the EU should be moving on.But what have we got? An EU that ignores the No vote here and is working towards pushing another referendum here within the year.Democracy at it's finest:mad:

Kev_ps3

I voted No and im still glad I did. Why would I have "buyers remorse"?!

gixerfixer

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Seriously - do you not think the Euros would do a better job managing our country than we would? Visit the mainland and see how well things are run - infrastructure, healthcare, policing, things built on time and under-budget... I would always vote YES for everything to do with Europe because I think our politicians are doing a bad job and I'd rather have Germans or Belgians managing our country to be honest.

Are you for real? This is Ireland. We elect people to run our country

justcallmetex

javaboy wrote: »

I didn't get to vote on the changes to the learner license system either so I guess the whole shower in Leinster House must be Nazis. :rolleyes:

Maybe you just don't understand how a democracy works. Not every piece of legislation needs to be or can be put to the people.

I'll take time maybe at the weekend to vote on every bit of legislation if its put to the vote.

SimpleSam06

Yes, I'd definetely say its time to start considering withdrawing somewhat and maybe joining the EFTA countries...

Kev_ps3

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Seriously - do you not think the Euros would do a better job managing our country than we would? Visit the mainland and see how well things are run - infrastructure, healthcare, policing, things built on time and under-budget... I would always vote YES for everything to do with Europe because I think our politicians are doing a bad job and I'd rather have Germans or Belgians managing our country to be honest.

"Our country"? Speaking from Tauranga, NZ?
If anyone ever wanted to read what a traitor is i'll direct them to your post. Patriot Irishmen died for our freedom and you want to hand it again to foreigners.

Stephen

Most retarded thread EVER. Godwinned about 5000 times already.

stovelid

Poll?

humanji

Kev_ps3 wrote:

"Our country"? Speaking from Tauranga, NZ?
If anyone ever wanted to read what a traitor is i'll direct them to your post. Patriot Irishmen died for our freedom and you want to hand it again to foreigners.

Seriously, with everyone of your posts you come across as getting dumber and dumber. Irish patriots didn't die so you could use their names in vain to try and further your own warped sense of freedom. They'd be proud of what Ireland has become. This is what they fought for, so next time you want to play the "I'm a republican ra-ra-ra" card, try and remember that they don't want you insulting their memory by trying to use their names to guilt others!!!

And you even have the cheek to call someone else a traitor? You're the traitor here. You're thinking about yourself and not the Irish people. You are a twat and nothing more. Grow up.

eoin2nc

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

"Our country"? Speaking from Tauranga, NZ?
If anyone ever wanted to read what a traitor is i'll direct them to your post. Patriot Irishmen died for our freedom and you want to hand it again to foreigners.

The more I read your posts, the more I laugh everytime. I voted YES, so I am a traitor then am I?

Run_to_da_hills

Thomas J. Clarke, Sean Mac Diarmada, Thomas MacDonagh, P. H. Pearse, Eamonn Ceannt, James Connolly, Joseph Plunkett would all turn in their graves had Ireland voted yes and sold this nation out to foreigners. http://iol.ie/~dluby/proclaim.htm

humanji

They wouldn't of minded a yes vote, but they'd of wondered about selling our nation. Luckily that's got nothing to do with the Lisbon Treaty.

hmmm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Thomas J. Clarke, Sean Mac Diarmada, Thomas MacDonagh, P. H. Pearse, Eamonn Ceannt, James Connolly, Joseph Plunkett would all turn in their graves had Ireland voted yes and sold this nation out to foreigners. http://iol.ie/~dluby/proclaim.htm

I get the impression you spend a lot of your day talking to them?

"Eamonn, Thomas how're ya"
"Grand Run_to, guess what we're dead a 100 years who'd have thought"

Run_to_da_hills

hmmm wrote: »

I get the impression you spend a lot of your day talking to them?

"Eamonn, Thomas how're ya"
"Grand Run_to, guess what we're dead a 100 years who'd have thought"

I show respect for these guys for the good work they did in getting our independance and I would not like to this country sold out to foreign rule.

RATM

andrew wrote: »

I was actually just saying that the response of other politicians is understandable, considering the amount of work that was put into it only for a handful of people to put a stop to it.



Actually plenty of people understand it. If you don't, then don't vote, simple as. Let the people who have taken the time to understand it vote. I never meant to imply that people should follow politicians blindly, if thats what you think I've meant. Not at all. I think people shouldn't do anything blindly, and that includes voting. Which is what you seem to advocate with your 'dont understand it so vote no' opinion.

Fair play to you if you understood it. I read the first 100 pages and gave up.My sister is a barrister and is well used to legal jargon and even she said it was incomprehensible and was of the opinion that it was designed to be so ( she based this on her reading of Nice and Maastrict which were understandable ) Compare it with the US Constitution which is all of 4 pages long and has provided stable government for over 200 years and it seems the powers that be just set out to confuse us into something we might regret later. In the event of uncertainty voting no was the best option ( I dont believe in not voting or spoiling ) rather than vote yes to discover down the line it was a mistake that cant be rectified.

ejmaztec

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Thomas J. Clarke, Sean Mac Diarmada, Thomas MacDonagh, P. H. Pearse, Eamonn Ceannt, James Connolly, Joseph Plunkett would all turn in their graves had Ireland voted yes and sold this nation out to foreigners. http://iol.ie/~dluby/proclaim.htm

Do you think that any of them would have been impressed by any of the home-grown politicians who have have run Ireland since independence?

I think there's been a lot of grave-turning since then.

Run_to_da_hills

ejmaztec wrote: »

Do you think that any of them would have been impressed by any of the home-grown politicians who have have run Ireland since independence?

I think there's been a lot of grave-turning since then.

Nothing as bad as ripping up the constitution to shreads and handing this country over to foreign dictators. Its like spitting at these guys in the face.

Wook

funk-you wrote: »

The comments in the French/Austrian/Dutch/German newspapers alone make me angry as fuck nevermind the bullying their politians are doing. If we were a larger country would they be saying the same?

I thought the EU was built on integration and respect for all.

See my sig.

-Funk

I actualy think Ireland comes out of it pretty well , because it such a small country.