Possibility of a Lisbon #2

IRLConor

Simplicity wrote: »

I think you are lying to yourself.

I think you're jumping to conclusions about me.

murphaph

hmmm wrote: »

Yeah good on you we can really put Sarkozy in his place, a second no will really show him. Why don't we send insults to all our main trading partners? There will be another vote and the vote will be to decide whether we voluntarily want to become the Albania of Western Europe.

That's rather sensationalist is it not? If we vote no again, the treaty should be abandoned. We simply operate under the current treaties in force (as we have done since the 'project' began. The 'project' is insatiable however, constantly wanting more and more sovereignty. The 'project' is only going one way. Has any treaty ever substantively returned powers to national parliaments? No. It's a one way street with no side turns. We can't be thrown out of the EU as it stands for simply rejecting a treaty. The level of irritation evident from Brussels federalists is proof if it were needed of this. If they knew they could simply dump us out, they would. They know they can't. Anyway, please God the Czechs will also reject. It'll be game over if a national parliament throws it out because as the YES camp keep telling us, national parliaments know better than the irish people.

Simplicity

IRLConor wrote: »

I think you're jumping to conclusions about me.

I doubt it.

If your vote had won the day you'd be as p1ssed off as me that there is an "ah sure yis might have got it wrong , sure lets have another go" Vote.

Your posts seem to indicate you don't mind the second go. Thus my thoughts. Perhaps you prefer the best out of three approach?

Simplicity

Simplicity wrote: »

Thus my thoughts. Perhaps you prefer the best out of three approach?

Thats not the way democracy works in Ireland and never has been.
Once a proposal for something to be approved is put,then it if it is approved it is implimented.
For all other things,you need to have it in government policy ie you actually have to have a plan.
Plans get voted down or approved.
The idea of a "no plan" doesn't get a vote once a plan is up and running.

Thats why you won't see a referendum to reintroduce a ban on divorce no matter how desirable coir/youth defence think that might be.

is_that_so

I suspect that some people posting here have never voted in a referendum before. Apart from unprovocative ones like bail or local government they do generate a lot of heat before and after and some accusations end up being levelled that are patently untrue but reflect the depth of feeling and sense of righteousness on each side.

For now there is a vacuum, which the media and EU politicians, diplomatic or otherwise, are happy to fill. The only thing that appears to be clear is that there will be no renegotiation of the treaty. However you voted, a solution to this problem must and will be found. There is also the question of where Ireland should go in Europe itself, which was not in the referendum and maybe we need to address that more urgently. In my view it is better to be part of that.

However if all we focus on, is the perception of how we are being treated , or our rights or how wrong the other side was, and not looking for answers then the EU will have that ultimate option available.

IRLConor

Simplicity wrote: »

I doubt it.

If your vote had won the day you'd be as p1ssed off as me that there is an "ah sure yis might have got it wrong , sure lets have another go" Vote.

No, since anyone with half a brain won't change their vote based on the fact that they're voting a second time. They'll only change their vote based on what they've learned since they voted the first time.

If every single one of the no voters this time were voting because they had studied the treaty and had good, solid factual reasons to vote no then surely they'll all vote no again?

If some of them realise they were voting on an false premise (abortions for example) then maybe they'll change to a yes. Is that such a bad thing? Perhaps some yes voters will change their minds too and vote no.

Simplicity wrote: »

Your posts seem to indicate you don't mind the second go. Thus my thoughts. Perhaps you prefer the best out of three approach?

I don't mind the second go since a lot of people the first time round "didn't know, voted no" or were duped by blatant lies*. I think a second vote with a more educated electorate would be a good thing.

I firmly believe that if everyone in Ireland had ignored the politicians, read the treaty and voted solely on the contents of it we would have had a yes vote by a good margin. Probably 65%/35% based on the views I've seen expressed here.



Many arguments against a second referendum seem to be predicated on a notion that by running the referendum multiple times the government can somehow change no voters into yes voters. Only an idiot would change their vote solely because they're going to "give in" to the government's position.


* I'm basing this solely on the posts in this forum and from people I've met, not any scientific survey.

Simplicity

Deleted User wrote: »

Thats not the way democracy works in Ireland and never has been.
Once a proposal for something to be approved is put,then it if it is approved it is implimented.
For all other things,you need to have it in government policy ie you actually have to have a plan.
Plans get voted down or approved.
The idea of a "no plan" doesn't get a vote once a plan is up and running.

Thats why you won't see a referendum to reintroduce a ban on divorce no matter how desirable coir/youth defence think that might be.

Was that just a brain fart? Your post has no context bar something you needed to say?

Simplicity

IRLConor wrote: »

No, since anyone with half a brain won't change their vote based on the fact that they're voting a second time. They'll only change their vote based on what they've learned since they voted the first time.

If every single one of the no voters this time were voting because they had studied the treaty and had good, solid factual reasons to vote no then surely they'll all vote no again?

If some of them realise they were voting on an false premise (abortions for example) then maybe they'll change to a yes. Is that such a bad thing? Perhaps some yes voters will change their minds too and vote no.



I don't mind the second go since a lot of people the first time round "didn't know, voted no" or were duped by blatant lies*. I think a second vote with a more educated electorate would be a good thing.

I firmly believe that if everyone in Ireland had ignored the politicians, read the treaty and voted solely on the contents of it we would have had a yes vote by a good margin. Probably 65%/35% based on the views I've seen expressed here.



Many arguments against a second referendum seem to be predicated on a notion that by running the referendum multiple times the government can somehow change no voters into yes voters. Only an idiot would change their vote solely because they're going to "give in" to the government's position.


* I'm basing this solely on the posts in this forum and from people I've met, not any scientific survey.

What if people have a full brain and change their vote? Rather than your supposed half a brain brigade? Are you aware what you are saying?

IRLConor

Simplicity wrote: »

What if people have a full brain and change their vote? Rather than your supposed half a brain brigade? Are you aware what you are saying?

:rolleyes:

For "since anyone with half a brain" read "since anyone with at least half a brain".

Simplicity

IRLConor wrote: »

:rolleyes:

For "since anyone with half a brain" read "since anyone with at least half a brain".

wow. Nice point.

marco_polo

Simplicity wrote: »

Was that just a brain fart? Your post has no context bar something you needed to say?

Simplicity wrote: »

What if people have a full brain and change their vote? Rather than your supposed half a brain brigade? Are you aware what you are saying?

Simplicity wrote: »

wow. Nice point.

Have you anything constructive to add to the debate? Do you think that if people vote a second time that that they will change their minds soley based on the fact that they are voting a second time, or do you agree that something would have to happen in the interim for them to do so.

It seem to me alot of people are terrified at the prospect of a better informed electorate being given a say in a second referendum, And are crying undemocratic at the mere possibility of a second referendum, even though calling any referendum "undemocratic" is plainly ludicrous.

Simplicity

marco_polo wrote: »

Have you anything constructive to add to the debate? Do you think that if people vote a second time that that they will change their minds soley based on the fact that they are voting a second time, or do you agree that something would have to happen in the interim for them to do so.

It seem to me alot of people are terrified at the prospect of a better informed electorate being given a say in a second referendum, And are crying undemocratic at the mere possibility of a second referendum, even though calling any referendum "undemocratic" is plainly ludicrous.

I think we voted.

How does that sit with you?

marco_polo

Simplicity wrote: »

I think we voted.

How does that sit with you?

Sits fine with me. Everyone is entitled to vote no is any second referendum that may or may not happen if they so wish.

Do you feel that the public opnion on any issue never changes?

Simplicity

marco_polo wrote: »

Sits fine with me. Everyone is entitled to vote no is any second referendum that may or may not happen if they so wish.

Do you feel that the public opnion on any issue never changes?

Opinions always change. Sadly if we voted yes we would not be having the same debate.

Agree?

marco_polo

Simplicity wrote: »

Opinions always change. Sadly if we voted yes we would not be having the same debate.

Agree?

Perhaps, but hypothetically if a yes vote had been gained on the back of misinformation given to the public by the govermnent that was later discovered I could see such a possibility of a further referendum due to public pressure.

We have constructed our democracy in such a way that only the Government may call a referendum.

Simplicity

marco_polo wrote: »

Perhaps, but hypothetically if a yes vote had been gained on the back of misinformation given to the public by the govermnent that was later discovered I could see such a possibility of a further referendum due to public pressure.

We have constructed our democracy in such a way that only the Government may call a referendum.

Perhaps?


WoW tbh. you yes voters will say anything to get your vote in.

marco_polo

Simplicity wrote: »

Perhaps?


WoW tbh. you yes voters will say anything to get your vote in.

What has World of Warcraft got do do with anything

Just to see where you are coming from what are your criteria for "allowing" the holding of another referendum?

zenno

look people the lisbon treaty is dead . any attempt to have another referendum on this is absolutly illegal and is not accepted in a democracy. "what part of NO do they not understand this is more bullying" which brussels obviously are not a democracy. if brian cowen tries it again he will be committing political suicide. all those yes voters need their head checked immediatly they are all saying that they havent been told why the no side voted no. well that means their head is up their ass. get over it once and for all its dead dead dead. if brussels try to bring this treaty back for another try in ireland then it's a dictatorship you will be voting yes for. think hard about it. its illegal full stop

Scofflaw

zenno wrote: »

look people the lisbon treaty is dead . any attempt to have another referendum on this is absolutly illegal and is not accepted in a democracy. "what part of NO do they not understand this is more bullying" which brussels obviously are not a democracy. if brian cowen tries it again he will be committing political suicide. all those yes voters need their head checked immediatly they are all saying that they havent been told why the no side voted no. well that means their head is up their ass. get over it once and for all its dead dead dead. if brussels try to bring this treaty back for another try in ireland then it's a dictatorship you will be voting yes for. think hard about it. its illegal full stop

Sigh. Relevant law, please?

wearily,
Scofflaw

dresden8

Scofflaw wrote: »

Sigh. Relevant law, please?

wearily,
Scofflaw

It's not illegal. Just cowardly and immoral.

marco_polo

zenno wrote: »

look people the lisbon treaty is dead . any attempt to have another referendum on this is absolutly illegal and is not accepted in a democracy.

How is is in any way illegal to call a national referendum? Unless you are talikng about Germany perhaps?

"what part of NO do they not understand this is more bullying" which brussels obviously are not a democracy. if brian cowen tries it again he will be committing political suicide. all those yes voters need their head checked immediatly they are all saying that they havent been told why the no side voted no. well that means their head is up their ass.

And what is the this clear reason that people voted no? You seem to be the only person privy to this information.

get over it once and for all its dead dead dead. if brussels try to bring this treaty back for another try in ireland then it's a dictatorship you will be voting yes for. think hard about it. its illegal full stop

The EU does not have any roles in calling referendums in Ireland.

dresden8 wrote: »

It's not illegal. Just cowardly and immoral.

Sigh. How is asking a question of the people of Ireland immoral or cowardly.

dresden8

Sigh. When you've already asked it and gotten an answer. Just a few days ago. Remember?

Ultra sigh.

zenno

it is illegal to force a second referendum on us that we already said no to. you fool. our constitution gives us the right to have our say on a vote and if a different country tries to push ahead and ignore our vote then it is illegal what they are doing. now get lost and get over it.

zenno

the cattle been led to the slautherhouse. thats what the yes side want. rott in hell.

Simplicity

marco_polo wrote: »

What has World of Warcraft got do do with anything

Just to see where you are coming from what are your criteria for "allowing" the holding of another referendum?

None. I don't. We differ there I think. I'd be for the first vote.

marco_polo

zenno wrote: »

it is illegal to force a second referendum on us that we already said no to. you fool. our constitution gives us the right to have our say on a vote and if a different country tries to push ahead and ignore our vote then it is illegal what they are doing. now get lost and get over it.

The EU do not have anything to do with Irish referendums.

Again how is it illegal.

And what is in our constitution that stops other countries from ratifying the treaty or not?

Scofflaw

zenno wrote: »

it is illegal to force a second referendum on us that we already said no to. you fool. our constitution gives us the right to have our say on a vote and if a different country tries to push ahead and ignore our vote then it is illegal what they are doing. now get lost and get over it.

In other words you (presumably) think it ought to be illegal, but have nothing in law or the Constitution to back you.

Yes, this kind of thing reminds me why I used not to engage in the politics forum.

v. wearily,
Scofflaw

zenno

marco_polo wrote: »

The EU do not have anything to do with Irish referendums.

Again how is it illegal.

And what is in our constitution that stops other countries from ratifying the treaty or not?

the eu have interfeared in our democratic right to vote no. they will not accept our decision we have just made. they want and are desperatly trying to push brian cowen for another referendum on this they "brussels" will not take no for an answer. thats the whole point in living in a democracy we have to be respected on our decision. a democratic country like the eu "which it's not" has to abide by the law of respecting a neighbours democratic right to a final vote given. and quote "what is in our constitution that stops other countries from ratifying the treaty or not ?" well they can get all the other 26 member states to ratify the treaty but even if they all ratify it they cannot go ahead with it. because that would be breaking the eu law. we blocked the treaty from ever going forward and if brussels tries to go ahead with it after we voted no then it is absolutly illegal

zenno

quote" And what is in our constitution that stops other countries from ratifying the treaty or not?". why are you asking me whats in our own constitution i learned it in babies school for christ sake. do you really want me to explain our own constitution to you if you are irish and don't understand the constitution of ireland well then i give up.

K-9

If there are some changes to the Lisbon Treaty to suit Ireland, is it then undemocratic to vote again?