Possibility of a Lisbon #2

marco_polo · 21-06-2008 10:02pm

zenno wrote: »

the eu have interfeared in our democratic right to vote no. they will not accept our decision we have just made. they want and are desperatly trying to push brian cowen for another referendum on this they "brussels" will not take no for an answer. thats the whole point in living in a democracy we have to be respected on our decision. a democratic country like the eu "which it's not" has to abide by the law of respecting a neighbours democratic right to a final vote given. and quote "what is in our constitution that stops other countries from ratifying the treaty or not ?" well they can get all the other 26 member states to ratify the treaty but even if they all ratify it they cannot go ahead with it. because that would be breaking the eu law. we blocked the treaty from ever going forward and if brussels tries to go ahead with it after we voted no then it is absolutly illegal

Of course they cannot legally enact the treaty as it stands without 27 countries on board. But that is not what you said in earlier posts. You implied firstly that a second referendum would be illegal and also that another soverign state is not entitled to ratify the treaty because we voted no in our referendum.

So you now accept that it is not illegal for other countries to ratify the treaty as and when they see fit?

hmmm · 21-06-2008 10:03pm

zenno wrote: »

the eu have interfeared in our democratic right to vote no. they will not accept our decision we have just made. they want and are desperatly trying to push brian cowen for another referendum on this they "brussels" will not take no for an answer.

The EU can't force us to do anything, if Cowen wants he can just say no. What's your problem with that? If you don't like Cowen's reaction, vote him out.

marco_polo · 21-06-2008 10:05pm

zenno wrote: »

quote" And what is in our constitution that stops other countries from ratifying the treaty or not?". why are you asking me whats in our own constitution i learned it in babies school for christ sake. do you really want me to explain our own constitution to you if you are irish and don't understand the constitution of ireland well then i give up.

You said this:

"if a different country tries to push ahead and ignore our vote then it is illegal what they are doing."

I take it you are implying that I am too thick to find the relevant part in the constitution, rather than that it doesn't exist. Perhaps you can help me then?

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/html%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland%20(Eng)Nov2004.htm

Under what article?

And which playschool teaches kids the Constitution?:rolleyes:

turgon · 21-06-2008 10:15pm

hmmm wrote: »

The EU can't force us to do anything, if Cowen wants he can just say no. What's your problem with that? If you don't like Cowen's reaction, vote him out.

Aright hmmm, representative democracy isnt that good. Unless you have found a way for my to vote Cowen out before he has a second referendum??

hmmm · 21-06-2008 10:28pm

turgon wrote: »

Aright hmmm, representative democracy isnt that good. Unless you have found a way for my to vote Cowen out before he has a second referendum??

You can't change the rules mid game, only at the intervals. (watching too much football)

Scofflaw · 21-06-2008 10:39pm

turgon wrote: »

Aright hmmm, representative democracy isnt that good. Unless you have found a way for my to vote Cowen out before he has a second referendum??

Hmm. How did we get rid of Bertie?

cordially,
Scofflaw

IRLConor · 21-06-2008 10:47pm

turgon wrote: »

Aright hmmm, representative democracy isnt that good. Unless you have found a way for my to vote Cowen out before he has a second referendum??

It's irrelevant anyway. Even if you had an easy, guaranteed way of forcing Cowen out before a second referendum anyone who would replace him would do the same thing.

All the politicians with any real hope of being Taoiseach supported the Lisbon Treaty. I find it hard to believe that any second referendum wouldn't have the support of the majority of the Dáil. The only circumstance where I think the opposition would oppose one would be if the question being put to the people was identical.

dresden8 · 21-06-2008 10:59pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Hmm. How did we get rid of Bertie?

cordially,
Scofflaw

We didn't. He walked after he found out what papers the tribunal were holding on him.

marco_polo · 21-06-2008 11:00pm

dresden8 wrote: »

We didn't. He walked after he found out what papers the tribunal were holding on him.

And public pressure was not a factor in this decision at all?

K-9 · 21-06-2008 11:20pm

Anybody else think the fear about democracy and running a Lisbon2 are more to do with the fear of losing and not democracy?

A Govt. listening to the concerns of its electorate eg. more information and explanations to the "don't know, vote no" section and addressing concerns Re Neutrality and tax etc and incorporating provisions for those in the Treaty is somehow undemocratic?

marco_polo · 21-06-2008 11:23pm

Seanies32 wrote: »

Anybody else think the fear about democracy and running a Lisbon2 are more to do with the fear of losing and not democracy?

A Govt. listening to the concerns of its electorate eg. more information and explanations to the "don't know, vote no" section and addressing concerns Re Neutrality and tax etc and incorporating provisions for those in the Treaty is somehow undemocratic?

Mr Hammer meet Mr Nail Head.

dresden8 · 21-06-2008 11:38pm

marco_polo wrote: »

And public pressure was not a factor in this decision at all?

He had ballsed it all out before, even won an election. No, it was when he found out what the tribunal had on him.

dresden8 · 21-06-2008 11:39pm

Seanies32 wrote: »

Anybody else think the fear about democracy and running a Lisbon2 are more to do with the fear of losing and not democracy?

A Govt. listening to the concerns of its electorate eg. more information and explanations to the "don't know, vote no" section and addressing concerns Re Neutrality and tax etc and incorporating provisions for those in the Treaty is somehow undemocratic?

We should have no fear of losing. The no vote has already won.

What part of "the people have decided" do you not understand?

thehighground · 21-06-2008 11:41pm

Seanies32 wrote: »

Anybody else think the fear about democracy and running a Lisbon2 are more to do with the fear of losing and not democracy?

A Govt. listening to the concerns of its electorate eg. more information and explanations to the "don't know, vote no" section and addressing concerns Re Neutrality and tax etc and incorporating provisions for those in the Treaty is somehow undemocratic?

No, I've no fear whatsoever of a Lisbon 2 - but as a republican (who expects the rule of law not to be ignored by the government of Ireland (Republic of I) I would be disgusted.

I think I would actively campaign this time against it, because I'm also disgusted by the little fascist 'Yes' voters who show nothing but arrogance and contempt for the intellegience of their fellow men/women.

K-9 · 21-06-2008 11:45pm

dresden8 wrote: »

We should have no fear of losing. The no vote has already won.

What part of "the people have decided" do you not understand?

What part of "don't know, vote no" do you not understand.

What part of the polls showing not understanding the Treaty was THE major factor do you not understand, sorry ignore!

dresden8 · 21-06-2008 11:51pm

Seanies32 wrote: »

What part of "don't know, vote no" do you not understand.

What part of the polls showing not understanding the Treaty was THE major factor do you not understand, sorry ignore!

I couldn't give a flying f**k what the reason was. The people have spoken. Once you start critiquing and try to discount the outcome of a vote because you don't like it you're heading toward fascism.

thehighground · 22-06-2008 12:00am

Seanies32 wrote: »

What part of "don't know, vote no" do you not understand.

What part of the polls showing not understanding the Treaty was THE major factor do you not understand, sorry ignore!

Brian Cowen is not going to commit political suicide by ignoring the vote last week - that is what 'yes' campaigners need to get to grips with.

marco_polo · 22-06-2008 12:00am

dresden8 wrote: »

I couldn't give a flying f**k what the reason was. The people have spoken. Once you start critiquing and try to discount the outcome of a vote because you don't like it you're heading toward fascism.

What is facist about any possible second referendum? :rolleyes:

K-9 · 22-06-2008 12:00am

dresden8 wrote: »

I couldn't give a flying f**k what the reason was.

But the Govt. does.

You are a true democrat.

Ignoring the 46% who voted yes and the over 25% who voted because "if you don't know, vote no" or over concerns over Neutrality and tax, makes you the Fascist.

Your attitude is we won, doesn't matter how, so f**k off. Reminds me of Hitler and Mugabe!

dresden8 · 22-06-2008 12:02am

Seanies32 wrote: »

But the Govt. does.

You are a true democrat.

Ignoring the 46% who voted yes and the over 25% who voted because "if you don't know, vote no" or over concerns over Neutrality and tax, makes you the Fascist.

Your attitude is we won, doesn't matter how, so f**k off. Reminds me of Hitler and Mugabe!

The No side won and wants the result honoured so we're fascist dictators?

Now that's a huge leap.

Anyway, what part of "Ivor Callelly wants you to vote yes" or "Enda Kenny wants you to vote yes" do you not understand?

Well thought cogent reasoned arguement there.

dresden8 · 22-06-2008 12:03am

marco_polo wrote: »

What is facist about any possible second referendum? :rolleyes:

What's fascist is choosing to ignore the result of the first purely because you don't like the answer.

K-9 · 22-06-2008 12:06am

thehighground wrote: »

Brian Cowen is not going to commit political suicide by ignoring the vote last week - that is what 'yes' campaigners need to get to grips with.

For Gods sake man, I actually used the exact same lines on tax as well and why it will never be changed!

Listening to the No side and addressing their concerns and having a different referendum next year is listening to the No side.

Get over it, there will be another vote. The majority of No voters knew this and expected it to be renegotiated.

FFS, SF said so!

K-9 · 22-06-2008 12:07am

dresden8 wrote: »

The No side won and wants the result honoured so we're fascist dictators?

Now that's a huge leap.

Anyway, what part of "Ivor Callelly wants you to vote yes" or "Enda Kenny wants you to vote yes" do you not understand?

Well thought cogent reasoned arguement there.

Well I might as well join in!

K-9 · 22-06-2008 12:09am

dresden8 wrote: »

What's fascist is choosing to ignore the result of the first purely because you don't like the answer.

But the whole point is they aren't ignoring the result, they listen and learn from it and address the concerns.

Democracy in action.

AARRRGH · 22-06-2008 12:14am

If we are forced to vote again, I hope it fails for the second time.

K-9 · 22-06-2008 12:18am

dublindude wrote: »

If we are forced to vote again, I hope it fails for the second time.

I've no problem with that.

If we vote No after the issues raised in this referendum have tried to be addressed, no complaints here.

If we vote No say when Croatia join, I think we'll need to look ar our position in the EU and where to go from then on.

dresden8 · 22-06-2008 12:21am

The second Lisbon vote, if and when it happens, isn't going to be about Lisbon anymore. I know a huge amount of people who are really pi$$ed off at being labelled as stupid, illiterate, easily led, anti-abortion, anti conscription, pro US military CIA torture flight, Ra-head racist loolas.

Cowan would want to come back with some re-negotiation to sway them.

thehighground · 22-06-2008 12:24am

Seanies32 wrote: »

But the whole point is they aren't ignoring the result, they listen and learn from it and address the concerns.

Democracy in action.

Your clutching at straws here. On the basis of a telephone poll of 2,000 people (not an exit poll, mind), conducted by god only knows who, we don't know how the question was posed, who tell us that 40% (thats 800 people, mind) or something gave ONE of the reasons for not understanding the treaty for voting 'no', to actually ignore the actual vote of a referendum?

Your clutching at straws here. That is not democracy in action.

marco_polo · 22-06-2008 12:29am

dresden8 wrote: »

What's fascist is choosing to ignore the result of the first purely because you don't like the answer.

It is is the peoples will the result of the second referendum will be as the first was, so I fail to see your concerns.

thehighground · 22-06-2008 12:29am

Seanies32 wrote: »

But the Govt. does.

You are a true democrat.

Ignoring the 46% who voted yes and the over 25% who voted because "if you don't know, vote no" or over concerns over Neutrality and tax, makes you the Fascist.

Your attitude is we won, doesn't matter how, so f**k off. Reminds me of Hitler and Mugabe!

Seanie, please study Godwin's Law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Possibility of a Lisbon #2

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