Possibility of a Lisbon #2

marco_polo · 22-06-2008 12:30am

dresden8 wrote: »

The second Lisbon vote, if and when it happens, isn't going to be about Lisbon anymore. I know a huge amount of people who are really pi$$ed off at being labelled as stupid, illiterate, easily led, anti-abortion, anti conscription, pro US military CIA torture flight, Ra-head racist loolas.

Cowan would want to come back with some re-negotiation to sway them.

You seem strangely pleased about that.

dresden8 · 22-06-2008 12:31am

thehighground wrote: »

Seanie, please study Godwin's Law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Zing!

K-9 · 22-06-2008 12:31am

thehighground wrote: »

No, I've no fear whatsoever of a Lisbon 2 - but as a republican (who expects the rule of law not to be ignored by the government of Ireland (Republic of I) I would be disgusted.

I think I would actively campaign this time against it, because I'm also disgusted by the little fascist 'Yes' voters who show nothing but arrogance and contempt for the intellegience of their fellow men/women.

I've loads of respect for people who voted No for Euroskeptic, Nationalistic reasons. I don't agree, I think Nationalism and the EU can co-exist, but that's a different debate!

I do worry about the "don't know, vote no" section and the section of people who voted No because they don't like their Govt. telling them what to do, particularly the latter.

Some people genuinely didn't know and were undecided, some just will never take any time to try and inform themselves.

Still, doesn't mean we should ignore those sections and try and inform them, both No and Yes side.

dresden8 · 22-06-2008 12:31am

marco_polo wrote: »

You seem strangely pleased about that.

How so?

dresden8 · 22-06-2008 12:32am

Seanies32 wrote: »

Still, doesn't mean we should ignore those sections and try and inform them, both No and Yes side.

Nothing wrong with a little political re-education I suppose.

K-9 · 22-06-2008 12:33am

dresden8 wrote: »

Zing!

Was thinking of it when posting! Beat me there!

Beware of conspiracy theories.

marco_polo · 22-06-2008 12:36am

dresden8 wrote: »

Zing!

You were throwing out the old facist line yourself on the previous page.

dresden8 wrote: »

How so?

You biggest fear seems to be a second referendum where there is a much better informed electorate make the decisions purely on the basis of the actual contents of the treaty, without the No campaign being able to throw in the old false chestnuts of abortion, neutrality and tax vetos into the mix like they were in the first one.

If the no argument is that solid you should not fear an infinite number of referendums. If the result of the first referendum has shown anything it is that the Irish people will not listen to being told how to vote from the Irish Government or the EU and will make up their own minds on any future referendum.

BigglesMcGee · 22-06-2008 12:38am

Seanies32 wrote: »

and the section of people who voted No because they don't like their Govt. telling them what to do

I think that we're going to see this section multiply by a massive amount next time. Id hate to be Brian Cowen after the last one.

On a lighter note. Did anyone see the picture of Cowen and Hearney or Dick Roche all over the telly. My God, the rest of Europe must think Irish people are the ugliest in the world now.

Scofflaw · 22-06-2008 12:41am

thehighground wrote: »

Your clutching at straws here. On the basis of a telephone poll of 2,000 people (not an exit poll, mind), conducted by god only knows who, we don't know how the question was posed, who tell us that 40% (thats 800 people, mind) or something gave ONE of the reasons for not understanding the treaty for voting 'no', to actually ignore the actual vote of a referendum?

It would probably be a Gallup poll - they have the contract. Actually, it's there on their front page.

cordially,
Scofflaw

K-9 · 22-06-2008 12:41am

dresden8 wrote: »

Nothing wrong with a little political re-education I suppose.

Only if they want to listen.

On another forum, some posters didn't have enough information, some wanted a 1 page sheet of information, some didn't have any time and some decided on how to vote from Q&A!

Unless we ask every No voter why they voted No, polls is our best answer.

K-9 · 22-06-2008 12:43am

marco_polo wrote: »

You were throwing out the old facist line yourself on the previous page.

Indeed, selective memory.

dresden8 · 22-06-2008 12:43am

marco_polo wrote: »

You were throwing out the old facist line yourself on the previous page.

You biggest fear seems to be a second referendum where there is a much better informed electorate make the decisions purely on the basis of the actual contents of the treaty, without the No campaign being able to throw in the old false chestnuts of abortion, neutrality and tax vetos into the mix like they were in the first one.

If the no argument is that solid you should not fear an infinite number of referendums. If the result of the first referendum has shown anything it is that the Irish people will not listen to being told how to vote from the Irish Government or the EU and will make up their own minds on any future referendum.

Politicians always throw lies into any old vote that's knocking around. You'd swear it was a new phenomenon.

If there was an infinite number of referenda, that would be a sort of fairness, but there won't be, the first yes vote the process gets shut down. You know as well as I do that's how things work.

dresden8 · 22-06-2008 12:46am

For the “yes” voters, the prime motivation was the feeling that “Lisbon” was in Ireland’s best interest; the reasons mentioned were mostly one-dimensional, centred around how Ireland has benefitted from the EU

Ireland may have benefitted in the past but what has this got to do with Lisbon going forward, QMV, military commitments etc?

One dimensional indeed.

thehighground · 22-06-2008 12:53am

marco_polo wrote: »

You were throwing out the old facist line yourself on the previous page.

Don't thing its a problem with a 'facist line'. The problem is comparing anything to Hitler/Nazis (Holocaust) etc.

There have been some fairly 'ordinary', legitimate fascists

dresden8 · 22-06-2008 12:53am

Seanies32 wrote: »

Unless we ask every No voter why they voted No, polls is our best answer.

Like those polls that said Lisbon was going to be passed, that Paddy Power paid out on?

K-9 · 22-06-2008 12:58am

thehighground wrote: »

Don't thing its a problem with a 'facist line'. The problem is comparing anything to Hitler/Nazis (Holocaust) etc.

There have been some fairly 'ordinary', legitimate fascists

Mugabe ok in your opinion?

K-9 · 22-06-2008 1:00am

dresden8 wrote: »

Like those polls that said Lisbon was going to be passed, that Paddy Power paid out on?

What polls close to the vote said it would be passed?

AFAIK, the last couple were pretty close to the final result.

dresden8 · 22-06-2008 1:00am

Seanies32 wrote: »

Mugabe ok in your opinion?

Hey all he did was force a re-run of a vote.

marco_polo · 22-06-2008 1:02am

dresden8 wrote: »

Like those polls that said Lisbon was going to be passed, that Paddy Power paid out on?

Well there were no polls taken in days leading up to the referendum and no exit polls. So link please?

I have no idea why paddy power paid out early and even less idea what it has to do with the debate in hand about a second referendum. Publicity stunt perhaps?

marco_polo · 22-06-2008 1:03am

dresden8 wrote: »

Politicians always throw lies into any old vote that's knocking around. You'd swear it was a new phenomenon.

If there was an infinite number of referenda, that would be a sort of fairness, but there won't be, the first yes vote the process gets shut down. You know as well as I do that's how things work.

Like Divorce and Nice for example.

What lies did politicians throw out in this debate out of curiousity?

dresden8 · 22-06-2008 1:05am

Ok, screw the polls I can't be bothered to look them up.

Let's get back to the original point.

Ireland voted no. Now carry on saying we didn't. Even though we did.

K-9 · 22-06-2008 1:07am

dresden8 wrote: »

Hey all he did was force a re-run of a vote.

I can see Mary Coughlan ordering the army and Guards to intimidate the voters in Donegal alright!

dresden8 · 22-06-2008 1:08am

marco_polo wrote: »

Like Divorce and Nice for example.QUOTE]

Exactly.

K-9 · 22-06-2008 1:09am

dresden8 wrote: »

Ok, screw the polls I can't be bothered to look them up.

Let's get back to the original point.

Ireland voted no. Now carry on saying we didn't. Even though we did.

Well argued there.

You've won me over!

dresden8 · 22-06-2008 1:10am

Seanies32 wrote: »

Well argued there.

You've won me over!

Woo, success! Yes voter accepts result of democratic referendum.
My work here is done.

thehighground · 22-06-2008 1:11am

Seanies32 wrote: »

I can see Mary Coughlan ordering the army and Guards to intimidate the voters in Donegal alright!

No, wee Willie would have to order the army out.

Think the Guards have done enough of intimidating voters in Donegal

K-9 · 22-06-2008 1:13am

dresden8 wrote: »

Woo, success! Yes voter accepts result of democratic referendum.
My work here is done.

But the Guards will be giving me a beating in the morning to educate me on how a Yes vote is good for me.

K-9 · 22-06-2008 1:14am

thehighground wrote: »

No, wee Willie would have to order the army out.
Think the Guards have done enough of intimidating voters in Donegal

Ah first prize for thehighground.

thehighground · 22-06-2008 1:15am

dresden8 wrote: »

Woo, success! Yes voter accepts result of democratic referendum.
My work here is done.

Fairplay Dresden - fascist approach obviously works for 'Yes' voters!

dresden8 · 22-06-2008 1:15am

Seanies32 wrote: »

But the Guards will be giving me a beating in the morning to educate me on how a Yes vote is good for me.

You stick to your guns and don't let them bully you. If you die we'll have a song written about you.

Possibility of a Lisbon #2

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