Possibility of a Lisbon #2

Tim Robbins

towel401 wrote: »

if Biffo actually sees this as an option I think it would be time to just kick the muppet out, what I don't understand is why people actually put up with this "Wrong answer, bitch" style of ruling a country.

Because the No camp have come up with no way forward out of this mess. There is a myriad of messages from people who want a neo-liberal revolution, to marxist revolution to protest voters who can't articulate what they want to move forward.

If you think there is a way forward, go for it articulate it. There's no point coming out with rhetoric and soundbites: "The people have spoke", "The EU is a super state". We can't move forward on rhetoric and soundbites.

Our democracy has been subverted by ignorance. Simple as that.

The irony is that it will be up to the yes camp to get us out of this mess. The no camp will do absolutely nothing. You have pushed this state into Limbo and somehow are proud of it.

Nonsense.

molloyjh

BigglesMcGee wrote: »

And most of the Yes voters voted because they were told to by politicians.

Whats the difference?

Have you anything to back that up? Or is it just a baseless accusation? At least there is a reference for susannas point (the EU Commissions survey that showed 40% of No voters admitting to not understanding the treaty and a further 15-20% voting based on an inaccurate understanding of issues - you'll find the link in one of my posts from yesterday, it was in the Indo and the Times).

molloyjh

BigglesMcGee wrote: »

So how many No results does it take for a no vote to count?

It would be fair if we agreed on this before we had another referndum and also that the same number of Yes votes were required for a yes.

Anything else is skewed and unfair.

The No vote counts now, or have we snuck through Lisbon on the qt or something? The No vote will continue to stand until such a time as there is a Yes vote. The Yes will stand then until such a time as there is a No vote. Thats how this process works.

towel401

I think after Lisbon 2 there is Lisbon 3

Then there is Return of the Lisbon, and the Lisbon Treaty Expansion Pack

and if we vote all of those down there is a Boss that can spawn his own yes votes. and after we've had him the treaty is dead.

but seriosly, if #2 comes out with a slightly positive vote then we should have #3 as well. You know, for all the yes voters who didn't understand fully or were just voting to support their local TD and want to change their mind. Its only fair.

is_that_so

It might be easier just to read the report on the numbers, courtesy of link posted on other thread.
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055316078&page=4

susanna

BigglesMcGee wrote: »

And most of the Yes voters voted because they were told to by politicians.

Whats the difference?

This is just as bad as claiming that all No voters were brainwashed by Libertas, or too stupid to know what the treaty is about.

If you look around boards you'll see lots of post on the reasons for us to vote Yes.

molloyjh

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Our democracy has been subverted by ignorance. Simple as that.

Never a truer word spoken, I've been saying that for years! Sure we've proved it twice in the last 14 months!

molloyjh

towel401 wrote: »

I think after Lisbon 2 there is Lisbon 3

Then there is Return of the Lisbon, and the Lisbon Treaty Expansion Pack

and if we vote all of those down there is a Boss that can spawn his own yes votes. and after we've had him the treaty is dead.

but seriosly, if #2 comes out with a slightly positive vote then we should have #3 as well. You know, for all the yes voters who didn't understand fully or were just voting to support their local TD and want to change their mind. Its only fair.

If you want to push for that its your democratic right to do so.

Liked the piss take btw, especially the Expansion Pack!

hmmm

BigglesMcGee wrote: »

And most of the Yes voters voted because they were told to by politicians.

Whats the difference?

Because in a representative democracy we elect those who we best feel can represent us in matters like these. I vote people in to office, I expect them to tell me whether they think something like this is a good or bad deal. I don't expect to study the minutae of a treaty, nor do I want to - that's why I elect someone else to do this for me.

The overwhelming majority of our elected representatives and in particular those representatives I voted for were in favour which is good enough for me.

If I go to see a doctor and he tells me I have a particular problem, I don't go off and do a medical degree to disprove him nor do I listen to someone on the street telling me otherwise. I make my own mind up as to who I will listen to for advice.

dubman25

who cares what b.cowen "the lips" wants.can he and his redicicouls goverment not understand the people of ireland voted no and no means no!!!:D

its a disgrace to have the likes of him as taoiseach anyway!!


i just hope the people of ireland dont accept a second vote and say no is no!!!

susanna

dubman25 wrote: »

its a disgrace to have the likes of him as taoiseach anyway!!

Well he didnt make himself Taoiseach...

dubman25

well i certainly didnt and would never vote for him!!!:pac:

ionix5891

BigglesMcGee wrote: »

And most of the Yes voters voted because they were told to by politicians.

Whats the difference?

oh please whos being "elitist" now

i don't trust politicians

thats why I went and read up on the issues and came to conclusion i did

see thats what rational people do, some irrational people went and voted the exact opposite of what they "they were told to by politicians" nothing to do with this treaty

later on i was shocked to find out that most of the "issues" put up by the No side were either a lie or had nothing to do with damned treaty either

towel401

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Because the No camp have come up with no way forward out of this mess. There is a myriad of messages from people who want a neo-liberal revolution, to marxist revolution to protest voters who can't articulate what they want to move forward.

If you think there is a way forward, go for it articulate it. There's no point coming out with rhetoric and soundbites: "The people have spoke", "The EU is a super state". We can't move forward on rhetoric and soundbites.

Our democracy has been subverted by ignorance. Simple as that.

The irony is that it will be up to the yes camp to get us out of this mess. The no camp will do absolutely nothing. You have pushed this state into Limbo and somehow are proud of it.

Nonsense.

We continue to live in the same Europe we had before there was a lisbon treaty, things weren't that bad then. Its not like the EU is completely crippled with the lack of something like the lisbon treaty, it can still function.

Why is it up to the no side to come up with an alternative method for enlargement and possible super-state creation when maybe they want neither of those things.

BigglesMcGee

susanna wrote: »

This is just as bad as claiming that all No voters were brainwashed by Libertas, or too stupid to know what the treaty is about.

If you look around boards you'll see lots of post on the reasons for us to vote Yes.

Thankyou. The very point i was trying to make.

I voted Yes, and im the only person i know in real life who actually read the treaty, whether they voted yes or no.

Boards is not the elctorate by the way.

People here know full well that if there is ever a yes vote that it will be the last referendum on the issue, so they shouldnt be trying to make out that everyone here is stupid by saying that if they want to vote no after a yes that they can do so.

How about we say "Best out of 3"? Thats fairer than keeping goping til you get a yes. Though not as fair as accepting the peoples first answer.

ionix5891

towel401 wrote: »

We continue to live in the same Europe we had before there was a lisbon treaty, things weren't that bad then. Its not like the EU is completely crippled with the lack of something like the lisbon treaty, it can still function.

Why is it up to the no side to come up with an alternative method for enlargement and possible super-state creation when maybe they want neither of those things.

because like it or not were in a union with other 26 countries who don't want to stand still and rot or go backwards for that matter to digging spuds and fishing like some of the people in a parallel threads want us to do

arghghghgh i need a coffee its too early for this ****

molloyjh

towel401 wrote: »

We continue to live in the same Europe we had before there was a lisbon treaty, things weren't that bad then. Its not like the EU is completely crippled with the lack of something like the lisbon treaty, it can still function.

Why is it up to the no side to come up with an alternative method for enlargement and possible super-state creation when maybe they want neither of those things.

Ah yes, the oul if it ain't broke argument. So if your car was leaking petrol and one of the windows was missing, but it still got you from A to B you'd be happy yeah? Or would you try and either get it repaired or replaced? At the end of the day the EU isn't as efficient and organised as it could be. It is also at peak capacity and cannot take on any more member states until something like Lisbon comes into affect without the whole thing grinding to a halt.

molloyjh

BigglesMcGee wrote: »

Thankyou. The very point i was trying to make.

I voted Yes, and im the only person i know in real life who actually read the treaty, whether they voted yes or no.

Boards is not the elctorate by the way.

People here know full well that if there is ever a yes vote that it will be the last referendum on the issue, so they shouldnt be trying to make out that everyone here is stupid by saying that if they want to vote no after a yes that they can do so.

How about we say "Best out of 3"? Thats fairer than keeping goping til you get a yes. Though not as fair as accepting the peoples first answer.

As I stated above, it is every persons democratic right to push for a No or a change in policy towards the EU if they so wish. If the people want a Euroskeptic Government all they need to do vote for one.

dubman25

its great that the people voted for no!!!

just stand by your word and dont mind the bullying "goverment" and "the eu":D

dont they understand we said no.maybe b.cowen needs stronger glasses so he can read the word NO

BigglesMcGee

molloyjh wrote: »

As I stated above, it is every persons democratic right to push for a No or a change in policy towards the EU if they so wish. If the people want a Euroskeptic Government all they need to do vote for one.

As i said before. Then lets wait til after the next election and let the parties have their view on Lisbon as past of their campaign. After that we can have another Referendum.

BigglesMcGee

dubman25 wrote: »

its great that the people voted for no!!!

just stand by your word and dont mind the bullying "goverment" and "the eu":D

dont they understand we said no.maybe b.cowen needs stronger glasses so he can read the word NO

Probably not great that they voted no , but they have voted, and should not be ignored.

Hitman Actual

towel401 wrote: »

but seriosly, if #2 comes out with a slightly positive vote then we should have #3 as well. You know, for all the yes voters who didn't understand fully or were just voting to support their local TD and want to change their mind. Its only fair.

I think everyone here wants the whole electorate, and not just the original No voters, to be aware of the facts of the Treaty if there were to be a second referendum. Last weeks' referendum was deeply flawed because of the misinformation before the vote, and the lack of knowledge by both the Yes and No voters alike.

I think that a lot of (knowledgeable) Yes voters currently have a problem with people saying that Ireland rejected the Lisbon Treaty. The fact is, the majority of people (Yes and No alike) haven't a clue what we rejected. It was a flawed referendum.

susanna

BigglesMcGee wrote: »

Thankyou. The very point i was trying to make.

I voted Yes, and im the only person i know in real life who actually read the treaty, whether they voted yes or no.

Boards is not the elctorate by the way.

People here know full well that if there is ever a yes vote that it will be the last referendum on the issue, so they shouldnt be trying to make out that everyone here is stupid by saying that if they want to vote no after a yes that they can do so.

How about we say "Best out of 3"? Thats fairer than keeping goping til you get a yes. Though not as fair as accepting the peoples first answer.

So coming back with assurances on the issues that caused people to vote no is unreasonable?

BigglesMcGee

susanna wrote: »

So coming back with assurances on the issues that caused people to vote no is unreasonable?

If they have another referendum without any changes then the whole idea of a referendum is a farce. Thanks to our beloved Govts stupidity.

marco_polo

BigglesMcGee wrote: »

If they have another referendum without any changes then the whole idea of a referendum is a farce. Thanks to our beloved Govts stupidity.

Thats not what she asked.

Scofflaw

BigglesMcGee wrote: »

If they have another referendum without any changes then the whole idea of a referendum is a farce. Thanks to our beloved Govts stupidity.

Not really. The Government don't have any option, as far as I can see. They are legally obliged to put certain kinds of question to us when those questions arise in the course of events.

The question in the first referendum was basically "would you like to ratify the Lisbon Treaty?".

The question in the second referendum looks like it will be "would you prefer to ratify the Lisbon Treaty or to leave the EU?". That's not the Government asking the Irish people, it's the EU 26 asking Ireland.

The government has no choice in the matter, really.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Tim Robbins

towel401 wrote: »

We continue to live in the same Europe we had before there was a lisbon treaty, things weren't that bad then. Its not like the EU is completely crippled with the lack of something like the lisbon treaty, it can still function.
[/QUOTE}
The people who work in, trying to enact legislation suggest otherwise.
Either because they are correct or they are all deluded or they have a secret agenda to wipe us all out.

Why is it up to the no side to come up with an alternative method for enlargement and possible super-state creation when maybe they want neither of those things.

With the greatest of respect, that's the kind of moranic nonsense that is driving some yes voters mad. Firstly, you have dumbed down a complicated legal agreement to some stupid scary buzzword "superstate". It's as if you couldn't be bothered looking up what that treaty was about and arguing logically so you are dumbing it down to really stupid rhetoric.

Secondly, Ireland will be alone in blocking Lisbon. That means we
1. Block progress of the EU.
2. We opt out of Lisbon and let the EU get on with it.
3. We find some other way forward.

Now, since none of us Yes voters brought us into this mess, it might be constructive if they people who did helped get us out of it.

But the average political awareness and acumen of the average no voter is so bad, constructive and coherent suggestions to move forward are just too lofty a concept for them.

I mean 70% thought negotiating a second treaty would be easy. That's the level of ignorance we are dealing with.

auerillo

Scofflaw wrote: »

Not really. The Government don't have any option, as far as I can see. They are legally obliged to put certain kinds of question to us when those questions arise in the course of events.

The question in the first referendum was basically "would you like to ratify the Lisbon Treaty?".

The question in the second referendum looks like it will be "would you prefer to ratify the Lisbon Treaty or to leave the EU?". That's not the Government asking the Irish people, it's the EU 26 asking Ireland.

The government has no choice in the matter, really.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Secondly, Ireland will be alone in blocking Lisbon. That means we
1. Block progress of the EU.
2. We opt out of Lisbon and let the EU get on with it.
3. We find some other way forward.

.

Without wanting to rehash the arguments, the facts are that of the 4 electorates who were asked to vote for or against the constitution/treaty, 3 out of 4 have voted "no".

We can choose to ignore that, and we can come up with clever arguments that give more weight to what the governments of those countries want rather than what the people in those countries voted for. Facts are facts.

I wonder are they any precedents from history which show us what happens when the governing classes ignore to will of the people whom they are supposed to represent?

BigglesMcGee

Scofflaw wrote: »

Not really. The Government don't have any option, as far as I can see. They are legally obliged to put certain kinds of question to us when those questions arise in the course of events.

The question in the first referendum was basically "would you like to ratify the Lisbon Treaty?".

The question in the second referendum looks like it will be "would you prefer to ratify the Lisbon Treaty or to leave the EU?". That's not the Government asking the Irish people, it's the EU 26 asking Ireland.

The government has no choice in the matter, really.

cordially,
Scofflaw

complete Tosh. Who's spouting misinformation now.

hmmm

The no side managed to convince voters that the question in the referendum was

"Would you like the status quo to remain or would you like to join Europe under Lisbon"

Unfortunately the status quo was not on offer from our fellow Europeans. The next referendum needs to make it clear that the choice is

"Would you like to join the second tier of Europe (or even leave the EU) or accept Lisbon"