Possibility of a Lisbon #2

dresden8

hmmm wrote: »

Yeah good on you we can really put Sarkozy in his place, a second no will really show him. Why don't we send insults to all our main trading partners? There will be another vote and the vote will be to decide whether we voluntarily want to become the Albania of Western Europe.

We didn't send insults. We sent the result of a free and fair vote. Unfortunately we're now stupid and don't understand stuff. All the insults are flying one way here.

dresden8

is_that_so wrote: »

I can offer no comment at all on any of this however you might like to read my post on inclusiveness on Page 2.

I agree that the losers of a vote still deserve to be represented in any subsequent situation, but I also agree that the views of the winners of a vote should be represented.

ionix5891

conceited wrote: »

Your argument is flawed.

you still havent replied to whether its undemocratic for the democratically elected representatives of these countries to have ratified something that you claim "vastly unpopular" across europe :rolleyes:

therewillbe wrote: »

Do they not understand , no means no!

so thats it? the people have spoken (50% of the electorate have voted, 53% of these who did voted NO)

so now we can never again have another referendum on anything to do with Europe again?? :eek:

dresden8 wrote:

I might have some posters done up and spread them around. And they won't be financed by CIA .

Ironically the NO vote was financed by Liberats who are ex CIA and have deep ties with US military

see
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0520/1211232308995.html
and
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/87311


:eek:

hmmm

dresden8 wrote: »

We didn't send insults. We sent the result of a free and fair vote. Unfortunately we're now stupid and don't understand stuff. All the insults are flying one way here.

I've no issue with us sending the results of a vote. I have an issue with the utter lack of comprehension amongst many "no" voters as to the implications of them voting no. This is not simply voting no to a treaty that has no consequences for us if we voted against it. I can understand why a Sinn Fein or a Coir would be happy to see Ireland thrown back to the 70s, I don't think most no voters appreciate that that is what they are on the verge of voting for. And I have a complete lack of understanding for voters who feel we can hurl insults (verbal or in the ballot box) to our main trading partners without there being consequences. Fine, vote no but understand what this means for the economy - if you do I will then have no issues with your choice, if you don't then you'd better figure out what it means because your kids and grandkids will ask you why you voted that way as they prepare to leave on the boat.

dresden8

At what stage did we vote to destroy Europe? I must have missed that bit.

Europe rolls on. The only people who can destroy it are those who will not accept the result of a free and fair vote. That is the massive danger to Europe, once that concept gains a foothold.

conceited

I haven't mentioned the word democratic or undemocratic once in any of my posts ut you seem to be using it in every sentence for some reason?

You still failed to discuss the changes in the consitution which you said where addressed, you just skipped the whole discussion .

dresden8

ionix5891 wrote: »

you still havent replied to whether its undemocratic for the democratically elected representatives of these countries to have ratified something that you claim "vastly unpopular" across europe :rolleyes:


so thats it? the people have spoken (50% of the electorate have voted, 53% of these who did voted NO)

so now we can never again have another referendum on anything to do with Europe again?? :eek:



Ironically the NO vote was financed by Liberats who are ex CIA and have deep ties with US military

see
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0520/1211232308995.html
and
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/87311


:eek:

As I've said before the only groups with known ties to the US military and CIA torture flights are Fianna Fail, the PDs and the Greens.

Another bittersweet irony to come from this vote.

conceited

So far 100% of the Europeans that voted, voted no. Get it?

dlofnep

ionix5891 wrote: »

but they are not a majority otherwise there would be riots in 19 countries now, since they are democracies people can protest and come together to form groups, we are not seeing that. or are you implying that these countries are not democratic?

Their Government's have not outlined to them the pros & cons of the treaty, so unless they research themselves on the internet and such (which some have) - then they wouldn't have any reason to protest? Besides, even if there was a few protests scattered throughout Europe - Who's to say that the media will broadcast it? I can only go on what I've seen, and what I've seen is people across Europe comment where possible on their outrage that their Government's won't give them a referendum on it. Is that democracy? You tell me.

ionix5891 wrote: »

only in Ireland have nationalist Sein Fein, US Military contractors called Liberats, Coir and other religious fundamentalists have come together to protest (and in alot of cases spread lies) about what was essentially a good deal for Ireland and EU which took many years to hammer (during Irish presidency of the EU no one complained btw) out over Issues that had nothing to do with that Treaty

You forgot to mention, the majority of the population of Ireland. Or have you forgot them? I'm not in favour of Libertas or Coir - But I do support Sinn Féin and their reasoning for not backing the Lisbon Treaty is far from the agendas of Libertas or Coir.

But I ask you - Why have you not given respect to the voters of Ireland, because at the end of the day - it is they who voted and it is you who are not respecting their votes. The YES campaign had enough time to do whatever they saw fit to win this Treaty - They had everything going for them - The two biggest political parties in Ireland with the biggest voting base and the plastering of local TD's on posters in each constituency, but yet - they still failed.

hmmm

conceited wrote: »

So far 100% of the Europeans that voted, voted no. Get it?

Are you seriously trying to lecture the rest of Europe on democracy? From here, the land of the permanent FF government?

dresden8

hmmm wrote: »

Are you seriously trying to lecture the rest of Europe on democracy? From here, the land of the permanent FF government?

So you're against people voting in general elections as well? Are you sure you're not Robert Mugabe?

dlofnep

hmmm wrote: »

Are you seriously trying to lecture the rest of Europe on democracy? From here, the land of the permanent FF government?

No, he's making a point of that where people have been given the chance to make their voice heard - they have resoundingly rejected this treaty in all it's forms. A valid point, may I add.

Kovik

I'm very much in favour of a second referendum (as the first was pumped full of suspiciously wrought Libertas money) but some of the comments of by Sarkozy in particular are very jarring. To their credit, most European leaders have spoken with reserve, refusing to concede that ratification should cease but respecting that Ireland had to work itself out (likely having had the Irish government pledge their commitment to ratification following the referendum). For the French government to insist on any course of action and further hint at a circumvention of existing protocols in order to pass the treaty without Irish approval is somewhat insulting and to the detriment of the EU project.

Scofflaw

dlofnep wrote: »

That's a blatant lie. A vast amount of people have expressed concern across Europe. Try again.

I'd like to see some evidence for that. What I've seen so far (the pro-referendum rallies of ten people here, seven there) has not been impressive, and has actually suggested that by and large people are fine.

As to the whole "the mask has slipped" thing - one can equally well say that our blinkers have slipped. We need Europe - not vice versa.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Kovik wrote: »

I'm very much in favour of a second referendum (as the first was pumped full of suspiciously wrought Libertas money) but some of the comments of by Sarkozy in particular are very jarring. To their credit, most European leaders have spoken with reserve, refusing to concede that ratification should cease but respecting that Ireland had to work itself out (likely having had the Irish government pledge their commitment to ratification following the referendum). For the French government to insist on any course of action and further hint at a circumvention of existing protocols in order to pass the treaty without Irish approval is somewhat insulting and to the detriment of the EU project.

The French are not "good" Europeans - they're arrogant, nationalistic, intemperate, and for exactly those reasons a major reason for the existence of the EU.

regretfully,
Scofflaw

sink

Kovik wrote: »

I'm very much in favour of a second referendum (as the first was pumped full of suspiciously wrought Libertas money) but some of the comments of by Sarkozy in particular are very jarring. To their credit, most European leaders have spoken with reserve, refusing to concede that ratification should cease but respecting that Ireland had to work itself out (likely having had the Irish government pledge their commitment to ratification following the referendum). For the French government to insist on any course of action and further hint at a circumvention of existing protocols in order to pass the treaty without Irish approval is somewhat insulting and to the detriment of the EU project.

I agree with that. I find Sarkozy seriously irritating. I would have supported his Presidential campaign but now I am bitterly disappointed with his presidency, like most people who voted for him. However I will not allow the disrespectful comments made by him or others to affect my opinion that the Lisbon treaty was a good deal. In life you deal with gob****es by ignoring them, reacting to them only encourages them.

dlofnep

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'd like to see some evidence for that. What I've seen so far (the pro-referendum rallies of ten people here, seven there) has not been impressive, and has actually suggested that by and large people are fine.

Evidence? The greatest evidence has already been shown with rejections in France, Netherlands and our very own Ireland. (That's slightly more than "ten people here, seven there).

What dlofnep has seen is posters across the EU express their dismay in their own Government's for not allowing them a vote across multiple mediums, and everywhere they have expressed it - it has always been the exact same. They want to have a voice on the matter. Is it that hard to comprehend?

IRLConor

conceited wrote: »

So far 100% of the Europeans that voted, voted no. Get it?

No they didn't.

53.2% of the Europeans that voted, voted no.

Scofflaw

dlofnep wrote: »

Evidence? The greatest evidence has already been shown with rejections in France, Netherlands and our very own Ireland. (That's slightly more than "ten people here, seven there).

The Treaty was renegotiated after the French and Dutch rejections - that's what happened in the intervening two years - so Ireland rejected a different Treaty, despite your claim that they're the same.

dlofnep wrote: »

What dlofnep has seen is posters across the EU express their dismay in their own Government's for not allowing them a vote across multiple mediums, and everywhere they have expressed it - it has always been the exact same. They want to have a voice on the matter. Is it that hard to comprehend?

What Scofflaw saw was Libertas posters all over, and COIR and SWP posters too - and I know that none of those groups represent anything other than fringe elements in society, or people with more money than average. Come to that, there were SF posters all over the country - and we know their level of electoral support.

So all you're proving is that some dedicated campaign organisations across Europe oppose Lisbon or the EU, and see this as a chance to capitalise on media interest. It doesn't come within an asses roar of proving what you claim for it, I'm afraid.

regards,
Scofflaw

ionix5891

dlofnep wrote: »

Evidence? The greatest evidence has already been shown with rejections in France, Netherlands and our very own Ireland. (That's slightly more than "ten people here, seven there).

If you are gonna drag France and Dutch NO result in their referenda into this i will have to remind you that PEOPLE of Spain and Luxembourg have voted YES in their referendums

2 - 2 = 0

dlofnep wrote: »

What dlofnep has seen is posters across the EU express their dismay in their own Government's for not allowing them a vote across multiple mediums, and everywhere they have expressed it - it has always been the exact same. They want to have a voice on the matter. Is it that hard to comprehend?

if they want their voices heard theres nothing stopping them from protesting together and getting their elected governments to listen to their demands, thats how democracy works, if majority of the people are unhappy about their governments they get thrown out, unless you want to imply the other 26 countries are undemocratic...

:cool:

dlofnep

Scofflaw wrote: »

The Treaty was renegotiated after the French and Dutch rejections - that's what happened in the intervening two years - so Ireland rejected a different Treaty, despite your claim that they're the same.

Did the people of France & Netherlands vote Yes on this treaty? No, they did not. I never stated that they were the same - they are very similiar.

Scofflaw wrote: »

What Scofflaw saw was Libertas posters all over, and COIR and SWP posters too - and I know that none of those groups represent anything other than fringe elements in society, or people with more money than average. Come to that, there were SF posters all over the country - and we know their level of electoral support.

I saw even more FF posters around - but thanks for catching up with the rest of us. We already pointed out months back that it was a Treaty for Europe, not for FF, FG or SF. I also don't appreciate your snide remark about SF. That's the second time you've brought it up and it's irrelvant to the debate. But it's ok - I appreciate your frusterated that even with majority party support - it still fell flat and your only way to get back at me is to have a cheap dig. Keep it going. You're just outling your true character to me with each post.

ionix5891

dlofnep wrote: »

Did the people of France & Netherlands vote Yes on this treaty? No, they did not. I never stated that they were the same - they are very similiar. .

no the didnt vote YES the French and the Dutch voted NO

but I will repeat once again that the PEOPLE of Spain and Luxembourg have voted YES in their referendums

if all the countries in EU have equal say then the above 4 from the Constitution cancel each other out

and that leaves Ireland being the odd one out

Ratified (date of deposition):
Austria (13 May 2008)
Bulgaria (28 April 2008)
Denmark (29 May 2008)
France (14 February 2008)
Hungary (6 February 2008)
Malta (8 February 2008)
Romania (11 March 2008)
Slovenia (24 April 2008)

Ratified (not yet deposited):
Estonia (Signed by President 19 June 2008)
United Kingdom (Royal assent 19 June 2008)

Approved by parliament:
Finland (awaiting Aland vote)
Germany (President's signature delayed pending court case)
Greece
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Poland
Portugal
Slovakia

Defeated by referendum: Irish Republic (12 June 2008)

Legal Challenges:
Czech Republic - Referred to court by upper house of parliament

No firm date:
Belgium (partially approved)
Cyprus
Italy (new government)
Netherlands (approved by lower house 4 June)
Spain (new government)
Sweden

dlofnep

ionix5891 wrote: »

If you are gonna drag France and Dutch NO result in their referenda into this i will have to remind you that PEOPLE of Spain and Luxembourg have voted YES in their referendums

2 - 2 = 0

Nobody ever debated that it had "some" support. But it requires 100% support in order for it to be fully ratified, something it does not have. It's not a football game sir.

ionix5891 wrote: »

if they want their voices heard theres nothing stopping them from protesting together and getting their elected governments to listen to their demands, thats how democracy works, if majority of the people are unhappy about their governments they get thrown out, unless you want to imply the other 26 countries are undemocratic...
:cool:

Yeah, because protesting acheives alot against Government's who are afraid to give their own people a chance to vote. :rolleyes: All that will happen is they will be thrown in jail and called terrorists/hoods/whatever.

dlofnep

ionix5891 wrote: »

no the didnt vote YES the French and the Dutch voted NO

but I will repeat once again that the PEOPLE of Spain and Luxembourg have voted YES in their referendums

*sigh*

I repeat - It requires 100% ratification and support. It does NOT have that today, and it did not have it for the constitution. But it will be pressed on and forced on Europe, because that's how Brussels works. Or have you not seen?

ionix5891

dlofnep wrote: »

Yeah, because protesting acheives alot against Government's who are afraid to give their own people a chance to vote. :rolleyes: All that will happen is they will be thrown in jail and called terrorists/hoods/whatever.

so are you saying that the rest of the countries in the EU are un-democratic states? where a majority of the population has no say or influence??

dlofnep wrote: »

I repeat - It requires 100% ratification and support.
.

yes it does and its quite polite of the rest of the countries to give us another go next year to double check if thats a NO vote is really what we want, and by that stage hopefully the full consequence of such a vote to Ireland and EU are explained to the people

if they were pure evil as some people here believe the rest of the countries would have ganged up on us, but no were getting quite the special treatment and respect of being asked of our opinions again

dresden8

Scofflaw wrote: »

What Scofflaw saw was Libertas posters all over, and COIR and SWP posters too - and I know that none of those groups represent anything other than fringe elements in society, or people with more money than average. Come to that, there were SF posters all over the country - and we know their level of electoral support.

Well if they don't represent voters you can't claim people voted no in support of these positions. A bit of consistency in you overturning a democratic vote please.

dresden8

ionix5891 wrote: »

but I will repeat once again that the PEOPLE of Spain and Luxembourg have voted YES in their referendums

Yes, but have they been given time to reflect upon their decision. Has anybody tried to find out why they voted yes, so we can choose to ignore their vote?

ionix5891

Ok if the No supporters dont want another referendum

what exactly do you propose Ireland and the other 26 states do?

dresden8 wrote: »

so we can choose to ignore their vote?

how very democratic of you :rolleyes:

dresden8

ionix5891 wrote: »

yes it does and its quite polite of the rest of the countries to give us another go next year to double check if thats a NO vote is really what we want, and by that stage hopefully the full consequence of such a vote to Ireland and EU are explained to the people

And if it's a yes vote will they be polite enough to give us another go after that.

Dear God, the level of undemocratic fascism on this board is unbelievable.

ionix5891

dresden8 wrote: »

And if it's a yes vote will they be polite enough to give us another go after that.

Dear God, the level of undemocratic fascism on this board is unbelievable.

if theres a majority who want another vote why not have another referendum, especially when the first time around the turnout is ~50%

whats undemocratic about asking people for their opinion??