Honours Irish for teaching???

horsecrap

Is it true, they might be doing away with the entry system off that you must have a C3 in hons leaving cert Irish to gain entry to primary school teaching?? as it is biased toward foreign teachers???!
or is this a load of horsecrap!?

yurmothrintites

It's horsecrap. You can't teach primary school children Irish without being competant in the language yourself.

Trotter

Whats rubbish is basing it solely on the leaving certificate. If a person got a D1 in honours Irish, and then went on to become a fluent authority on the Irish langage, they'd still be excluded from primary teaching in courses based in Ireland.

I think that teachers without a C3 in hons Irish should be able to

A) Get in with an A in pass Irish
or
Be able to apply to do the SCG as per overseas trained teachers.

scut

I disagree Trotter, an A in pass Irish certainly does not compare to a D in honours, people are getting As and Bs in pass Irish without knowing their verbs where as you have to know them inside out when doing hons Irish, there is no way you can teach Irish to Primary school children especially 4th-6th class without knowing your verbs inside out.

Trotter

scut wrote: »

there is no way you can teach Irish to Primary school children especially 4th-6th class without knowing your verbs inside out.

I'll meet you half way.. An A1 in pass giving access to a cut down SCG. I cannot but disagree that a person with an A1 in pass wont get a C3 with necessary work and support.

Getting an A in pass Irish does not automatically equate to the inability to achieve a C3 in honours. Getting a C3 in honours is absolutely possible without knowing your verbs.

I've taught Irish at secondary level and I assure you that I can train a pass A+ Irish student to get a C3 in honours. All I will need is access to the student and above all.. time. With 3 months to my own leaving cert in '99, time was something I didnt have. I made a tactical decision to drop one honours subject to get my points as high as possible in the other 6. I knew I could bank on an A1 in pass maths with half the prep time of a C1 in honours maths. It just wasn't my strength at the time. I knew I could manage honours Irish, and I devoted that extra half an hour a night to my Irish.

I got an A1 in pass maths.. does that mean I'd have failed honours? Absolutely not. It means I was doing 7 subjects and could do without the hassle of the final prep for the honours maths exam. Instead I brought my honours Irish grade up to a B1.

Now.. Had I decided to do things the opposite way, you're assuming I'd have failed honours maths.

The cut down SCG is a way to ensure that a person with a A in pass Irish is able to teach Irish at primary level without a fuss.

Why should a person with a fail in Irish in the leaving and a PGCE from the UK be allowed to teach for a year and then be allowed to prove competency in Gaeilge.. when a person with an A+ in pass Irish which was gained to reduce workload in other subjects at the age of 17, has no access to the SCG to prove their competency.

The ability to teach Irish should not go back to lie on a possibly tactical decision made at the age of 17. The decision to exclude should not be decided on the ability of a teacher when they were 17 without a way back in for a postgrad level adult.

Under current circumstances my hypothetical professor in Irish who grew to love the language after he/she got an A1 in pass Irish, is in the eyes of the state, incompetent to level that she/he cannot even have access to a proper equivalency test.

I'd love Mr. A1 in pass Irish teaching my child if my child comes home learning and loving the basics.
For many years, we all had Irish rammed down our necks by people with high grades and no love of Irish.

Give me a pass A1 teacher with a love of the language over Mr. Buntús the honours C+ man anyday.

spurious

Mind you, being good at learning a particular subject is absolutely no guarantee of being able to teach that subject, but that's a whole other debate...;)

Trotter

spurious wrote: »

Mind you, being good at learning a particular subject is absolutely no guarantee of being able to teach that subject, but that's a whole other debate...;)

That scenario pops up more at 3rd level where the person who's the absolute expert in an area gets the lecturing hours. They may never have had any training to impart the knowledge though. Strange state of affairs really when we put so much effort into making sure that teachers can teach at primary and secondary level.

Anyway.. Gaeilge..

Rosita

Trotter wrote: »

1) Under current circumstances my hypothetical professor in Irish who grew to love the language after he/she got an A1 in pass Irish, is in the eyes of the state, incompetent to level that she/he cannot even have access to a proper equivalency test.

2) I'd love Mr. A1 in pass Irish teaching my child if my child comes home learning and loving the basics.
For many years, we all had Irish rammed down our necks by people with high grades and no love of Irish.

Give me a pass A1 teacher with a love of the language over Mr. Buntús the honours C+ man anyday.

1) Not true - that is a myth and a remarkably widespread one.

The Hibernia College entry requirements states: The following will also satisfy the minimum Irish language requirement:
• Diploma in Arts (Applied Irish) from University College Cork
• Dioplóma sa Ghaeilge from NUI Galway
• Dioplóma sa Ghaeilge Fheidhmeach from University College Dublin
• Minimum grade C in the NUI matriculation exam
• A pass in a first year primary degree examination in Irish
(National Framework of Qualifications Level 8)


The Department's guidelines for entry to post-graduate course for primary teaching in the traditional colleges Alternatives to second level qualifications in Irish, English or Maths
A Pass in a University First Arts Examination in Irish, English or Mathematics will be accepted in lieu of the Leaving Certificate Examination/GCE/GCSE requirement for the relevant subject. In the case of Irish, a Grade C in the Matriculation Examination (which existed up to 1992) will also
be accepted in lieu of the Leaving Certificate Examination/GCE/GCSE requirement. In addition, the Dioplóma sa Ghaeilge from NUI Maynooth and the Diploma in Arts (Applied Irish) from University College Cork, the Dioplóma sa Ghaeilge Fheidhmeach from UCD, the Dioplóma sa Ghaeilge, NUIG are accepted as satisfying the Leaving Certificate Examination/GCE/GCSE
requirement. In the case of Mathematics, a Pass in that subject in the Matriculation Examination will also be accepted in lieu of the Leaving Certificate Examination/GCSE requirement.

Your hypothetical profesor would be welcomed with open arms. So there are other avenues that can be taken by those wishing to qualify - in reality they are unlikely to be taken by someone who did pass Leaving Cert Irish but they are there.


2) This is simplistic really. It is likely on balance that an Honours student will be more competent and comfortable with the language and more likely to continue to develop their ability. And it is unlikely I would say that pass students will have a "love" of the language. At that age love of a subject generally comes from ability at it and if you have a love of it you'll probably be excelling at Honours. You will always find the person like myself who did pass Irish for the Leaving Cert and subsequently did a degree in the subject but that would not be too common I imagine.

Trotter

Rosita wrote: »

1) Not true - that is a myth and a remarkably widespread one.

I stand corrected! How many of the options you laid out are available to someone to do as a part time / distance option? Just out of interest.

Rosita wrote: »

2) It is likely on balance that an Honours student will be more competent and comfortable with the language and more likely to continue to develop their ability. And it is unlikely I would say that pss students will have a "love" of the language.

I'm not sure I fully agree with that one. I did pass maths, but later completed levels of maths way in excess of leaving cert honours as part of my BSc. I now really enjoy teaching maths to 6th class and beyond to 6th year as I have in the past.

I most certainly have a bigger attraction to Gaeilge now than I did in 6th year. I wonder is that down to a general "acceptance" or rebirth in the language though. Im not sure on that one.


Great info on the back doors to the Gaeilge requirement though. I hope some of those are accessible to part time / distance learners. Otherwise its not a level playing pitch. If my professor is in Donegal, can he access those courses?

Rosita

Trotter wrote: »

Great info on the back doors to the Gaeilge requirement though. I hope some of those are accessible to part time / distance learners. Otherwise its not a level playing pitch. If my professor is in Donegal, can he access those courses?

Not sure on specifics of geography, but I do know one person who studied in Carlow IT for a diploma being awarded by NUIG. How far the 'outreach' stuff goes I am not sure. But these are two year diplomas - it is certainly quicker (one year rather than two) and far less demanding academically for someone to repeat the Leaving Cert in the subject (the standards on the Diplomas would be quite high if some of the people I have met from them are the typical benchmark and it would not be managed by the same level of rote learning the Leaving can). And of course there are no issues with geography as there's a school where the Leaving Cert can be sat in every town.

As for your comment "I did pass maths, but later completed levels of maths way in excess of leaving cert honours as part of my BSc. I now really enjoy teaching maths to 6th class and beyond to 6th year as I have in the past" - of course you are comfortable teaching people because you have gone onto further study. Expecting a pass Leaving Cert student to be competent to teach Irish years later even at a nominally lower level (Primary) after not formally studying the language further is an entirely different matter I would think.

Trotter

Rosita wrote: »

Not sure on specifics of geography, but I do know one person who studied in Carlow IT for a diploma being awarded by NUIG. How far the 'outreach' stuff goes I am not sure. But these are two year diplomas - it is certainly quicker and probably easier too for someone to repeat the Leaving Cert in the subject.

Its good to know that the courses are that accessible. It makes sense!

Rosita wrote: »

As for your comment "I did pass maths, but later completed levels of maths way in excess of leaving cert honours as part of my BSc. I now really enjoy teaching maths to 6th class and beyond to 6th year as I have in the past" - of course you are comfortable teaching people because you have gone onto further study. Expecting a pass Leaving Cert student to be competent to teach Irish years later after not formally studying the language further is an entirely different matter I would think.

Yes but you do study the language as part of the teaching post grads. If you don't pass the Irish parts, you don't graduate as qualified. I do see where you're coming from though.. absolutely. I think the whole key here is accessibilty to modes of obtaining competence in Gaeilge. Every teacher should reach a given standard in order to teach the language, but be given access to the means to prove their ability.

I just find the whole situation skewed towards the teaching of Irish unnecessarily.

The requirements in general include "(i) in the Leaving Certificate Examination from 1969 onwards: a grade C or above in Higher Level Irish; a grade D or above in Mathematics (Ordinary or Higher level); and a grade C or above in English (Ordinary level) or grade D or above in English (Higher level);"

So a person can officially teach at primary level having achieved a D in pass maths. It just doesnt equate to the C3 in higher level Irish.

While I'm the first person to preach about the importance of Gaeilge, I think maths is up there with it.

Strange situation really.

Rosita

Trotter wrote: »

1) Its good to know that the courses are that accessible. It makes sense!


2) I just find the whole situation skewed towards the teaching of Irish unnecessarily.

The requirements in general include "(i) in the Leaving Certificate Examination from 1969 onwards: a grade C or above in Higher Level Irish; a grade D or above in Mathematics (Ordinary or Higher level); and a grade C or above in English (Ordinary level) or grade D or above in English (Higher level);"

So a person can officially teach at primary level having achieved a D in pass maths. It just doesnt equate to the C3 in higher level Irish.

While I'm the first person to preach about the importance of Gaeilge, I think maths is up there with it.

Strange situation really.

1) I am not sure how widely accessible they are to be honest but there are one or two examples that I know which seem promising in that regard.

2) I would always think of a language as a special case to be honest where you need a standard well in advance of what you are teaching. Otherwise it is taught badly, inaccurately and probably at the minimum level - it would be human nature to be less than enthusiastic about teaching a language you haven't a great grasp of yourself.

There may well be a similar argument for Maths of course.

gaeilgegrinds

What an interesting thread. As for it being biased, two of my Polish students recently secured jobs after completing their Irish exams. It can be done.

Fast_Mover

Jaysus, fair play to them/you.

How long had they been learning Irish for?
Did they get a proper mainstream job?

gaeilgegrinds

One got a job in language support, the other will be teaching second class. The first lady has been learning Irish for three years since moving here& started from her children's books. The second has only been learning it sixteen months but had a real flair for languages.
As for me, a teacher who can't teach isn't much good! So no fair play needed, it's my job.