Neutrality

Star_Buck

I will probably get torn apart by Free Staters for saying this but why should Ireland ever consider joining any sort of military alliance with the 'Free nations of the world' when another 'Free nation's' army is still in the north of Ireland? I think Ireland has suffered enough at the hands of a foreign people to inflict the same upon anyone else. Interfering in other nations conflicts shouldn't be meddled unless the UN request assistance in peace keeping matters.

brianthebard

OP, still waiting to find out what the net benefits will be to Ireland if we revoke our neutrality?

Fratton Fred

Star_Buck wrote: »

I will probably get torn apart by Free Staters for saying this but why should Ireland ever consider joining any sort of military alliance with the 'Free nations of the world' when another 'Free nation's' army is still in the north of Ireland? I think Ireland has suffered enough at the hands of a foreign people to inflict the same upon anyone else. Interfering in other nations conflicts shouldn't be meddled unless the UN request assistance in peace keeping matters.

You don't have to be in a military alliance to be non neutral. Ireland is a member of the EU so called rapid reaction force so it has nailed it's colours to the mast already, although I think there is a big question as to whether or not it is "Pulling it's Weight".

What makes Ireland special, do you honestly think Ireland is alone in suffering at the hands of another nation, most nations have and pretty much every nation in NATO has been at war with another NATO member at some time. It may have missed your notice, but the RoI does not have any claim to "The North" either, that was given up when the GFA was signed.

If Ireland wants to be Neutral, fine, but it is not in the constitution and it is not in practice either.

tallus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What makes Ireland special

If Ireland wants to be Neutral, fine, but it is not in the constitution and it is not in practice either.

It's our country, that makes it special.
I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

Fratton Fred

tallus wrote: »

It's our country, that makes it special.
I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

Of course I understand. Maybe "Different" would have been a better word.

Hopefully you get my point, pretty much every country has had a turbulant past, but that has not prevented former foes becoming allies.

Lets face it, England and France have been at war on and off for the last 1000 years, yet they appear to be able to move on and become allies.

brianthebard

Whats your argument ff,that ireland shouldn't be neutral?If so,why?

Fratton Fred

brianthebard wrote: »

Whats your argument ff,that ireland shouldn't be neutral?If so,why?

My post was in response to Star Buck, about foreign intervention etc.

My opinion is that Ireland is not neutral but likes to pretend it is purely as an excuse to spend piss poor amounts on the military.

tallus

Some countries have been more turbulent than others tho.
Are you saying that Ireland and england can't become allies ? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

brianthebard

Fratton Fred wrote: »

My post was in response to Star Buck, about foreign intervention etc. My opinion is that Ireland is not neutral but likes to pretend it is purely as an excuse to spend piss poor amounts on the military.

what makes ireland not neutral?Where do you stand on foreign intervention then?

irish_bob

Star_Buck wrote: »

I will probably get torn apart by Free Staters for saying this but why should Ireland ever consider joining any sort of military alliance with the 'Free nations of the world' when another 'Free nation's' army is still in the north of Ireland? I think Ireland has suffered enough at the hands of a foreign people to inflict the same upon anyone else. Interfering in other nations conflicts shouldn't be meddled unless the UN request assistance in peace keeping matters.

us irish are undoubtably W.O.P.E

Fratton Fred

tallus wrote: »

Some countries have been more turbulent than others tho.
Are you saying that Ireland and england can't become allies ? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

brianthebard wrote: »

what makes ireland not neutral?Where do you stand on foreign intervention then?

My points about turbulent pasts were in response to Starbuck who was saying that because Ireland is/was occupied it should not get involved in foreign intervention of join an alliance. Many countries who have been at war are now in alliances so the that should not stop Ireland joining an alliance (which it already has) with Britain.

Neutrality is irrelevant these days, there is no cold war or simmering under current of political aggression. There are developed and politically stable countries and there are those in turmoil. The developed countries have a duty as human beings to help out those less fortunate and if that means foreign intervention then so be it.

There is a common travel area with the UK, IoM etc, there is freedom of movement with the EU and there are huge trade agreements in place accordingly. How people think this is the action of a neutral country is beyond me.

tallus

How do trade agreements effect neutrality ?
I don't think it's irrelevant, there were neutral countries before there was a cold war.
I certainly don't agree with the intervention thing, it's rarely for humanitarian reasons, more to do with natural resources and control of said resources.

Fratton Fred

tallus wrote: »

How do trade agreements effect neutrality ?
I don't think it's irrelevant, there were neutral countries before there was a cold war.
I certainly don't agree with the intervention thing, it's rarely for humanitarian reasons, more to do with natural resources and control of said resources.

Bosnia, Chad, Lebanon, Zimbabwe?

tallus

You haven't answered the question, how can countries with trade agreements not still hold a neutral status.
Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea. Not humanitarian missions.

Fratton Fred

tallus wrote: »

You haven't answered the question, how can countries with trade agreements not still hold a neutral status.
Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea. Not humanitarian missions.

The EU is not just a trade agreement though is it, it is much much more. The EU can expel a country if it disregards it's rules, such as the Human Rights directive etc. If the EU put a trade embargo on, for example, Zimbabwe, then each member state would be expected to coply, therby afecting their neutrality.

What would happen if Ireland started exporting military equipment to Iran, what action would the EU take?

Manic Moran

I don't believe the EU did anything when Austria sold weapons to Iran a year or two ago, so I don't think it's an issue.

NTM

tallus

Ireland exporting military equipment ?
LOL
dude... come on and just look at post #37 what you typed:
Lets face it, this charade of Neutrality suits Ireland down to the ground. The government can get away with spending less than the bare minimum on defence and the population can look on in self righteous shock as the rest of the world gets involved in bloody conflicts.
/end quote
I think we're getting carried away tbh.

brianthebard

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The EU is not just a trade agreement though is it, it is much much more. The EU can expel a country if it disregards it's rules, such as the Human Rights directive etc. If the EU put a trade embargo on, for example, Zimbabwe, then each member state would be expected to coply, therby afecting their neutrality.

What would happen if Ireland started exporting military equipment to Iran, what action would the EU take?

I think its illegal to set up munitions production in Ireland, just in case you were thinking of a business venture. Also until the Lisbon treaty is implemented there isn't afaik a common EU foreign policy.

purple'n'gold

brianthebard wrote: »

I think its illegal to set up munitions production in Ireland, just in case you were thinking of a business venture. Also until the Lisbon treaty is implemented there isn't afaik a common EU foreign policy.

It’s illegal to set up munitions production in Ireland? Who has made it illegal? Explain please, this is the first time I have ever heard of this.

brianthebard

Can't remember where I read it tbh, I think it was a law passed around WWII period.

Star_Buck

brianthebard wrote: »

Can't remember where I read it tbh, I think it was a law passed around WWII period.

Raytheon own weapons production facilities north and south of the border.

Manic Moran

brianthebard wrote: »

I think its illegal to set up munitions production in Ireland, just in case you were thinking of a business venture.

That would be a bit of an odd rule, since military production is quite acceptable. Timoney have been designing armoured vehicles for years, for example.

NTM

Fratton Fred

tallus wrote: »

Ireland exporting military equipment ?
LOL
dude... come on and just look at post #37 what you typed:
Lets face it, this charade of Neutrality suits Ireland down to the ground. The government can get away with spending less than the bare minimum on defence and the population can look on in self righteous shock as the rest of the world gets involved in bloody conflicts.
/end quote
I think we're getting carried away tbh.

I don't see what is wrong with thet TBH.

If ireland wanted to be neutral then it would need to spend a shed load of dosh on defence.

Ireland is a fence sitter, not neutral

Moriarty

There's a bunch of companies in the south involved in the defence industry and weapon production to varying degrees. Ever wondered where all the microelectronics in those tanks, planes and missiles come from, for instance?

Morpheus

brianthebard wrote: »

I think its illegal to set up munitions production in Ireland, just in case you were thinking of a business venture. Also until the Lisbon treaty is implemented there isn't afaik a common EU foreign policy.

Not sure if its illegal to produce munitions in ireland, but it certainly isnt illegal to produce components for weapon systems and vehicles.

http://www.afri.ie/ireland-arms-trade.htm

SlabMurphy

Star_Buck wrote: »

Raytheon own weapons production facilities north and south of the border.

Yes they do. A bit off topic here but Raytheon plant in Derry was opened by that lovely man and Noble Peace prize winner John Hume. Uncle Tom Hume made a living out of condemning the Provos and declaring himself to be a complete and perfect pacifist most influenced by people like Ghandi and Martin Luther King, and then this mega hypocrite goes and proudly opens up in Derry - a weapons production facility ?? ??

Manic Moran

I don't suppose it's worth pointing out very successful arms manufacturers from Sweden (Bofors, Haaglunds, Saab... now BAe-owned) or Switzerland (Oerlikon, SIG).

NTM

oscarBravo

SlabMurphy wrote: »

...a weapons production facility...

I'm pretty sure Raytheon don't make weapons in Derry.

oscarBravo

SlabMurphy wrote: »

A bit off topic here but Raytheon plant in Derry...

Completely off-topic. This thread is about Irish neutrality. Derry is in the UK.

Fratton Fred

SlabMurphy wrote: »

Yes they do. A bit off topic here but Raytheon plant in Derry was opened by that lovely man and Noble Peace prize winner John Hume. Uncle Tom Hume made a living out of condemning the Provos and declaring himself to be a complete and perfect pacifist most influenced by people like Ghandi and Martin Luther King, and then this mega hypocrite goes and proudly opens up in Derry - a weapons production facility ?? ??

Someone called Slab murphy condeming someone for opening an arms factory

SkepticOne

Manic Moran wrote: »

I don't suppose it's worth pointing out very successful arms manufacturers from Sweden (Bofors, Haaglunds, Saab... now BAe-owned) or Switzerland (Oerlikon, SIG).

Probably an advantage, if anything, to be based in a neutral country if you are an arms manufacturer.

Fratton Fred

brianthebard wrote: »

what makes ireland not neutral?Where do you stand on foreign intervention then?

to throw this back to you, what makes Ireland Neutral?

SlabMurphy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Someone called Slab murphy condeming someone for opening an arms factory

I'm 100% for arms factories for clandestine military organisations replying to british terrorism and thuggery;) But whan you get a hypocrite who spent his whole life caliming to be a pacifist and then he goes and proudly opens up an arms factory that contribute to dropping bombs on defendceless children in Iraq, Afghanistan, the West Bank etc the reason I made the point is to show the total hypocisy of Hume.

brianthebard

Fratton Fred wrote: »

to throw this back to you, what makes Ireland Neutral?

Answering a question with a question? How clever of you. Ireland is neutral because it is a long running government policy with the widespread support of the Irish people. Simply really. Now back to you.

Fratton Fred

brianthebard wrote: »

Answering a question with a question? How clever of you. Ireland is neutral because it is a long running government policy with the widespread support of the Irish people. Simply really. Now back to you.

when did the people get asked? The government has lots of policies which people don't agree with. (I already answered this question btw:))

If Ireland really wanted to be Neutral then surely it would have to hold a referendum and change the constitution.

heyjude

I think that it would be more accurate to describe Ireland as militarily non-alligned rather than neutral, in that we are not members of any military alliance. How can you be neutral and still allow foreign military aircraft engaged in military action not sanctioned by the UN to make use of one of your airports ?

I think we generally sided with the US/UK side in the cold war, but we've never actually nailed our colours to the mast and signed on the dotted line with this support by joining NATO, yet we assume that if we were attacked by some hostile party, that Britain or NATO would come to our aid. It might be the clearest example of an Irish solution to an Irish problem, we don't want to make the investment in money and resources that NATO membership would entail, but we would unofficially count of them in times of emergency.

brianthebard

Fratton Fred wrote: »

when did the people get asked? The government has lots of policies which people don't agree with. (I already answered this question btw:))

If Ireland really wanted to be Neutral then surely it would have to hold a referendum and change the constitution.

I agree that a referendum would provide a cast iron guarantee of neutrality, but just because it isn't in our constitution doesn't make something wrong or less of a policy. I didn't say that the people were asked, just that there is widespread support for neutrality. Britain is a war monger but I doubt they have it written in their (imaginary) constitution that they should behave as such.


Edit: heyjude, who suggests that the US or Nato would protect us in the hugely unlikely event of an attack? I always assumed we would go to the UN first and deal with things diplomatically. Out of interest can anyone who has claimed we depend on the US/UK for protection show what protocols, guidelines or policies they are referring to?

Fratton Fred

brianthebard wrote: »

I agree that a referendum would provide a cast iron guarantee of neutrality, but just because it isn't in our constitution doesn't make something wrong or less of a policy. I didn't say that the people were asked, just that there is widespread support for neutrality. Britain is a war monger but I doubt they have it written in their (imaginary) constitution that they should behave as such.

Britain has a constitution, its just a lot older and a lot more complex than the Irish one. One badly misjudged war in Iraq does not make a country a war monger though.

brianthebard wrote: »

Out of interest can anyone who has claimed we depend on the US/UK for protection show what protocols, guidelines or policies they are referring to?

They are there alongside the neutrality ones

brianthebard

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Britain has a constitution, its just a lot older and a lot more complex than the Irish one. One badly misjudged war in Iraq does not make a country a war monger though.

britain has an unwritten constitution, which doesn't have the same safeguards for the British people as the Irish one for the Irish people. I think we both know Britain has been in a lot more than one badly misjudged war.

They are there alongside the neutrality ones

Fail tbh. I'm not aware of any defense agreement with Ireland and the US/UK that states they will come to our aid in the highly unlikely event of war being declared on Ireland. If you can't show that there is one then your criticisms of Irish neutrality are void imo.

SlabMurphy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Britain has a constitution, its just a lot older and a lot more complex than the Irish one. One badly misjudged war in Iraq does not make a country a war monger though.



They are there alongside the neutrality ones

" One badly misjudged war in Iraq does not make a country a war monger though. " Britan has been invovled in more than just one misjudged war and is undoubtably one of the world's worst war mongers so long as it's against smaller numbers, a third world country or alongside America. To quote a good old friend of yours ( and mine )

India 1945 - 1948, Palestine 1945 - 1948, Mayala 1948 - 1960, Korea 1950 - 1953, Kenya, 1955 - 1959, Cyprus 1952 - 1960 , Aden 1955 - 1967, Suez 1956, the Six Counties 1969 - 1994, Malvina's 1982, Afghanistan and Iraq at present.

Fratton Fred

brianthebard wrote: »

britain has an unwritten constitution, which doesn't have the same safeguards for the British people as the Irish one for the Irish people. I think we both know Britain has been in a lot more than one badly misjudged war.

I know, there are a lot of amendments to people's rights etc. dating right back to the signing of the Magna carta in Runnymede. it is a very complex issue, but not what this thread is about.

I was talking about wars this century :P

brianthebard wrote: »

Fail tbh. I'm not aware of any defense agreement with Ireland and the US/UK that states they will come to our aid in the highly unlikely event of war being declared on Ireland. If you can't show that there is one then your criticisms of Irish neutrality are void imo.

that's what I mean, although both are talked about, neither exist.

brianthebard

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I know, there are a lot of amendments to people's rights etc. dating right back to the signing of the Magna carta in Runnymede. it is a very complex issue, but not what this thread is about.

I was talking about wars this century :P

So was I.

that's what I mean, although both are talked about, neither exist.

How can you say government policy doesn't exist?

Fratton Fred

brianthebard wrote: »

So was I.
How can you say government policy doesn't exist?

OK show me the policy on Neutrality.

Not the politicians talk, or the aspirations, the actual policy.

Personally I would be surprised if this government has any policy other than looking after its own interests, but that's another debate.

brianthebard

Dev sez wrote:

The policy of the state remains unchanged. We can only be friendly neutral. From the moment this war began, there was, for this state, only one policy possible, neutrality.

From; http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/timeline/411212awp.html

tallus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

One badly misjudged war in Iraq does not make a country a war monger though.

I think you'll find that it actually does make a country a war monger. You just seem to have a problem facing up to that fact.