Bomb scare in the George last night??

DubArk

Getting back to the original point of this thread. Can all of you just throw your minds back to eight years ago, at the Admiral Duncan pub in Soho London, when a nail bomb exploded, killing three people and causing dreadful carnage? A nail bomb ripped through a gay bar in Soho May 1st 1999, killing 3 people and wounding 89, and leaving the city on edge after two other bombings that month, in minority neighbourhoods..

Im mentioning this because people are driven by hatred in many ways, this of course is an extreme one. People every weekend are beaten up in Dublin because of been Gay. Some so seriously they will never recover.

But judging by the responses in this thread we have a long road to travel still!

david_the_great

PeadarofAodh wrote: »

"Very recently" being the key words here. We have thousands of years of history bringing children up traditionally. I'd tend to go with the tried and tested.

"Genetic inheritance"...bit off topic but I'm 99.9% sure this hasn't been proven.

it has been proven, and the tried and tested metyhod is not necesarily the correct method. Times are changing and ireland has been changing with it. gay marriage will be accepted and like divorce, and many other things that weren't tried and tested, gay marriage will be accpeted as a normal thing in years to come! we just have to legalise and give people time to understand it more- I may have failed to mention there was just ONE protester at dublin pride

david_the_great

Degsy wrote: »

Capable of procreation with a view to furthering mankind.What would happen if everybody was gay?The poulation would die out.Thats why you cant have children i 'm afarid.

we are still capable of procreation-

is it normal to put a child up for adoption- NO

but we still take it under our wing, and many gay couples could adopt and give adopted children a better standard of life. everyones a winner

and many many gay people have biological children

is this to say people who cant have children aren't normal- therfore shouldn't marry or adopt??

Degsy

DubArk wrote: »

Getting back to the original point of this thread. Can all of you just throw your minds back to eight years ago, at the Admiral Duncan pub in Soho London, when a nail bomb exploded, killing three people and causing dreadful carnage? A nail bomb ripped through a gay bar in Soho May 1st 1999, killing 3 people and wounding 89, and leaving the city on edge after two other bombings that month, in minority neighbourhoods..

Im mentioning this because people are driven by hatred in many ways, this of course is an extreme one. People every weekend are beaten up in Dublin because of been Gay. Some so seriously they will never recover.

But judging by the responses in this thread we have a long road to travel still!

People get beaten up in dublin every weekend for being fat,for being skinny,for having red hair.The people who perpetrate beatings will allways look for somebody to victimise on the weakest of pretexts.Again,how do they KNOW you're gay?Is there a stereotype that gay people like to confrom to that makes them noticible?Having parades etc?

PeadarofAodh

DubArk wrote: »

But judging by the responses in this thread we have a long road to travel still!

Do we? I know it's horrendously cliched at this stage to say so but I have several gay friends who I have a lot of respect for. Does it mean that because I don't agree with tax benefits for same-sex partnerships that I therefore harbour dislike for gays? No. Of course not. I deplore any act of violence such as you've just mentioned.

Degsy wrote: »

People get beaten up in dublin every weekend for being fat,for being skinny,for having red hair.The people who perpetrate beatings will allways look for somebody to victimise on the weakest of pretexts.Again,how do they KNOW you're gay?Is there a stereotype that gay people like to confrom to that makes them noticible?Having parades etc?

Hammer. Nail. Head.

david_the_great

PeadarofAodh wrote: »

Do we? I know it's horrendously cliched at this stage to say so but I have several gay friends who I have a lot of respect for. Does it mean that because I don't agree with tax benefits for same-sex partnerships that I therefore harbour dislike for gays? No. Of course not. I deplore any act of violence such as you've just mentioned.



do you agree that if you wer gay you would expect the same benefits as everyone else?

Cianos

Degsy wrote:

People get beaten up in dublin every weekend for being fat,for being skinny,for having red hair.The people who perpetrate beatings will allways look for somebody to victimise on the weakest of pretexts.Again,how do they KNOW you're gay?Is there a stereotype that gay people like to confrom to that makes them noticible?Having parades etc?

This is a bit of a rubbish argument. Gay bashing is alive and well. A lot of people still have a jerk reaction when they recognise someone as being gay. Which will result in name calling and taunting, which can easily lead to a fight. And it's quite easy to tell sometimes if someone is gay. And even further, what if the gay couple are just walking down the road holding hands?

david_the_great

Cianos wrote: »

This is a bit of a rubbish argument. Gay bashing is alive and well. A lot of people still have a jerk reaction when they recognise someone as being gay. Which will result in name calling and taunting, which can easily lead to a fight. And it's quite easy to tell sometimes if someone is gay. And even further, what if the gay couple are just walking down the road holding hands?

fat bashing is alive and well also

so is raicial abuse- are you saying foreigners should stop being foreign and that it should not be recognised??/

DubArk

PeadarofAodh wrote: »

Does it mean that because I don't agree with tax benefits for same-sex partnerships that I therefore harbour dislike for gays? No. Of course not. I deplore any act of violence such as you've just mentioned.

No i dont think so you have a right to express your opion.
Gay people pay tax aswell and have every right to such tax beneifits! There just not for the chosen few.

Cianos

david_the_great wrote: »

not alot of gay couples do this- i myself wuyldn't dream of it- i never get jerk reactions when people realise i am gay- and if i am taunted- i taunt them back, which almost always earns me respect or an apology!

What I'm saying is that on the streets when everyone is pissed, if a group of rowdy lads see a couple who are obviously gay, there is probably going to be name calling and aggression, which in many cases will lead to a fight.

DubArk

Degsy wrote: »

People get beaten up in dublin every weekend for being fat,for being skinny,for having red hair.The people who perpetrate beatings will allways look for somebody to victimise on the weakest of pretexts.Again,how do they KNOW you're gay?Is there a stereotype that gay people like to confrom to that makes them noticible?Having parades etc?

It’s a case of people been watched as they leave known gay premises and the area that their in and of course those conforming to your stereo type, doesn’t take Sherlock Holmes to work it out really. The Garda have recognised that gay people are targeted by certain groups for there own special punishment. To say that they’re not the only people that get beaten up ever weekend is a case of you not facing up to the facts and spouting your rhetoric is just proving the point that gay people must stand up for their rights even more, Marching with PRIDE, heads held high. Im sorry you’re so offended, but you sound so angry I would imagine that gays are just the tip of the ice berg with you. With or with out your consent rights will be given, just watch this space!

david_the_great

Cianos wrote: »

What I'm saying is that on the streets when everyone is pissed, if a group of rowdy lads see a couple who are obviously gay, there is probably going to be name calling and aggression, which in many cases will lead to a fight.

yes as they will to anyone who looks over or doesn't look over- or is fat or thin- or looks hard- it happens to everyone who happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time for whatever reason

david_the_great

DubArk wrote: »

It’s a case of people been watched as they leave known gay premises and the area that their in and of course those conforming to your stereo type, doesn’t take Sherlock Holmes to work it out really. The Garda have recognised that gay people are targeted by certain groups for there own special punishment. To say that they’re not the only people that get beaten up ever weekend is a case of you not facing up to the facts and spouting your rhetoric is just proving the point that gay people must stand up for their rights even more, Marching with PRIDE, heads held high. Im sorry you’re so offended, but you sound so angry I would imagine that gays are just the tip of the ice berg with you. With or with out your consent rights will be given, just watch this space!

here here

Cianos

david_the_great wrote: »

yes as they will to anyone who looks over or doesn't look over- or is fat or thin- or looks hard- it happens to everyone who happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time for whatever reason

Yes, obviously all different types of people get attacked for all different types of reasons. But it is a lot more likely there is going to be comments passed at a gay couple than, say, two overweight guys or two black guys or whatever. I would imagine if two guys walked through Dublin at 3am on a Saturday night holding hands, they would get abuse hurled at them, far more than any other 'type' of person.

david_the_great

Cianos wrote: »

Yes, obviously all different types of people get attacked for all different types of reasons. But it is a lot more likely there is going to be comments passed at a gay couple than, say, two overweight guys or two black guys or whatever. I would imagine if two guys walked through Dublin at 3am on a Saturday night holding hands, they would get abuse hurled at them, far more than any other 'type' of person.

this is true

and this is another form of persecution we are fightng aganst to make being gay alot more normal, socially, than it is at the moment

PeadarofAodh

DubArk wrote: »

I'm sorry you’re so offended, but you sound so angry I would imagine that gays are just the tip of the ice berg with you. With or with out your consent rights will be given, just watch this space!

Why is it that whenever someone states their opinion on this matter, like Degsy has, it's assumed that they're either angry/homophobic etc?

And what are you on about with his 'consent'?? That's got nothing to do with it - he was merely giving his opinion. Stop acting like you're being personally attacked just because a point is being debated!

Degsy

PeadarofAodh wrote: »

Why is it that whenever someone states their opinion on this matter, like Degsy has, it's assumed that they're either angry/homophobic etc?

And what are you on about with his 'consent'?? That's got nothing to do with it - he was merely giving his opinion. Stop acting like you're being personally attacked just because a point is being debated!

YOu cant have an opinion with certain people..what they believe is gospel and thats the end of it..

Degsy

Why do gay people feel the need to cogregate in "gays only" bars anyway?And whats the idea of holding hands "head held high".I'm straight and i havnt held hands with anybody since i was a teenager,at least in public.If i dint know better i'd say certain people are just looking for attention in order to provoke a reaction.Unfortunaly the reaction they provoke is often negative.As for gay pride parades and all the rest,does it not seem like pure attention-seeking?

ixoy

For all those people who don't want gay marriage to get tax exemptions as that's "for children" would ye all be in favour of removing tax exemptions for all married couples and only returning tax exemptions for those with kids (adopted or otherwise)? That would stop those married childless couples from advantaging themselves of a benefit that they don't require.

jill_valentine

Degsy wrote: »

Why do gay people feel the need to cogregate in "gays only" bars anyway?

Troll, surely?

Oh please God...

david_the_great

Degsy wrote: »

Why do gay people feel the need to cogregate in "gays only" bars anyway?And whats the idea of holding hands "head held high".I'm straight and i havnt held hands with anybody since i was a teenager,at least in public.If i dint know better i'd say certain people are just looking for attention in order to provoke a reaction.Unfortunaly the reaction they provoke is often negative.As for gay pride parades and all the rest,does it not seem like pure attention-seeking?

yes its attention seeking for the legal recognition we deserve!

as for congregating in gays only bars- only a selected few do and thats because they like the music/atmosphere

there are also "off the scene" gays who go to straight bars most of the time- like myself-

further more- we are not trying to provoke a reaction- do you think we look for trouble- because i certainly nevr get into trouble

dreamr

Degsy wrote: »

Why do gay people feel the need to cogregate in "gays only" bars anyway?And whats the idea of holding hands "head held high".I'm straight and i havnt held hands with anybody since i was a teenager,at least in public.If i dint know better i'd say certain people are just looking for attention in order to provoke a reaction.Unfortunaly the reaction they provoke is often negative.As for gay pride parades and all the rest,does it not seem like pure attention-seeking?

they go to gay-bars, because they know that they're not going to get hassle. How many "gay friendly" bars do you know? Like i like to kiss girls, but i wouldn't kiss a girl for attention. i do it for my own personal pleasure. if i kiss a girl in a straight bar, i'll have a ring of guys drooling around me, so i go to a gay bar, when i won't get galked at.

and as mentioned before, the parade is to high-light that there are gay people in ireland, who want equal rights as everybody else.

Degsy

ixoy wrote: »

For all those people who don't want gay marriage to get tax exemptions as that's "for children" would ye all be in favour of removing tax exemptions for all married couples and only returning tax exemptions for those with kids (adopted or otherwise)? That would stop those married childless couples from advantaging themselves of a benefit that they don't require.

So its all about the money now?"Rights" were soon forgotten!!

dreamr

PeadarofAodh wrote: »

Tax benefits were put in place to encourage marriage between opposite-sex couples which in turn encourages production of children. AFAIK same-sex partnerships are not permitted to adopt, neither can they produce children...so why should they receive tax benefits?

I would be of the opinion that a male-female upbringing of a child is more balanced than a male-male/female-female situation but then that's just me.

Please don't take this as an attack on the gay community - I've debated this with numerous gay friends of mine constructively without being attacked for my views. I'm not bothered replying to such comments.

"and please look up the word ignorant in the dictionary before you tell me your not"

I really don't feel the need to defend myself against comments like this.

does this mean you also feel strongly against single mothers bringing up their children?

Degsy

dreamr wrote: »

they go to gay-bars, because they know that they're not going to get hassle. How many "gay friendly" bars do you know? Like i like to kiss girls, but i wouldn't kiss a girl for attention. i do it for my own personal pleasure. if i kiss a girl in a straight bar, i'll have a ring of guys drooling around me, so i go to a gay bar, when i won't get galked at.

and as mentioned before, the parade is to high-light that there are gay people in ireland, who want equal rights as everybody else.

To be honest i dont think most people give a damn these days whether you're gay or not.There are a few homophobes but you'll never change thier minds,its unfortunate but its the way things are,parades arent actually gonna do your cause any good if you're making people late for work.Remember the times taxi men blocked town?It didnt exactly help thier cause.

Dyr

david_the_great wrote: »

not at all we need to have these parades/marches/protests in the heart of the city for everyone to see- which is the point if us doing them! doing it in phoenix park would be like doing it in an ampty field! what would be the point

and i also beg to differ that these things are "nonsense"

yeah thats just the thing is'nt it, the whole purpose of marches, parades, blah blah is to inconvenience other people who have to stand there like tools allowing it to pass, this isnt 1914. We live in a communications age, no excuse for getting into peoples faces with some message while they're out minding their own bleedin business

P*ss off up to the park. Whoever actually wants to show up can show up and ye can have RTE and all the meedjia cover it. Instead of holding joe soap hostage just to get in his face. Thats choice in action y'see. Or just feck off up to the dail and throw rocks.

david_the_great wrote: »

as well as this- the bus routes would have been changed so as not to affect anyone !!!

Shows what you know, i was waiting on westmoreland street for 30 minutes for a 13 and then spent another 30 stuck on oconnell street/bridge while the parade passed, as per usual with all these poxy irish-farmers-against-slavery-in iraq marches

ixoy

Degsy wrote: »

So its all about the money now?"Rights" were soon forgotten!!

Nope but I'd be happy to see marriage reformed along those lines for everyone if the primary focus on tax concessions is just for kids.

What I'd like is the ability for the law to recognise my partner - it's important, for example, for stuff like hospital visitation rights where somebody's life long partner could be potentially refused because they don't have the legal recognition that marriage endows. It's issues like this that are worth pushing for - for the law, and society, to respect my other half as an integral part of my life with as much meaning as any male/female relationship.

gcgirl

is it me or are the shiñners out in full force today ! This thread goes from bomb scare in the george to why gays should not be able to get married ! It's 2008 people and if 2 people want to spend the rest of their life together why stop them ! Or is it people are not happy with their own sexuality or as they say denial is not just a river in Egypt ! Excuse the spelling i'm crap at it

Degsy

ixoy wrote: »

Nope but I'd be happy to see marriage reformed along those lines for everyone if the primary focus on tax concessions is just for kids.

What I'd like is the ability for the law to recognise my partner - it's important, for example, for stuff like hospital visitation rights where somebody's life long partner could be potentially refused because they don't have the legal recognition that marriage endows. It's issues like this that are worth pushing for - for the law, and society, to respect my other half as an integral part of my life with as much meaning as any male/female relationship.

What hopsital would refuse somebody visitation rights because they werent married???Could you not say "I'm his(her)boy(girl)friend??The law already DOES respect your other half,thats why there's legislation to stop people discriminating based on sexuality.Marraige on the other hand is a very old custom and within it are entrencehd a LOT of very deeply-held beliefs relating to children,the man's role etc,etc.To alot of people marraige would lose all meaning if gays were allowed to marry and now it turns out its for purely selfish reasons they want to do it!

Degsy

gcgirl wrote: »

is it me or are the shiñners out in full force today ! This thread goes from bomb scare in the george to why gays should not be able to get married ! It's 2008 people and if 2 people want to spend the rest of their life together why stop them ! Or is it people are not happy with their own sexuality or as they say denial is not just a river in Eqipte ! Excuse the spelling i'm crap at it

Always question other people's sexuality if they have ANY issue with gays.In this case,i dont agree with them blocking off town so they can get married so i must be gay myself.Utter,utter crap.I dont particularly like farmers doing the same thing so i m ust be a closet farmer,yeah?

gcgirl

well you defo got some thing going on that you hate the gay community ! Did your ex run off with another woman or something ? You tell me ? As for hospitals most if not all wil only let parents if not married in and plus you have no say what so ever over your partners treatment !

Dyr

i visited me cousin in hospital last week, i was never asked who i was, for all they knew i could have been his life partner or whatever :pac:

PeadarofAodh

ixoy you make a good point - I do think certain areas, such as you mentioned about visitation rights etc, could be looked at.

Marriage is a state of union usually entered by two people who wish to form a family. Gay people, incapable of adopting or procreating, don't really fit this bill. This is why the tax benefits are there to reward and encourage such a move by a couple.

"Or is it people are not happy with their own sexuality or as they say denial is not just a river in Eqipte !"

Does the fact that I don't agree with tax-breaks for same-sex civil partnerships make me unhappy with my sexuality? I don't follow your logic.

gcgirl

that would not happen if someone was in icu ! My younger sister was in icu after getting a shunt put in and they would only let the old dear(my mum) in ! Any body can walk in to a ward ! But not intensive care !

DubArk

Degsy wrote: »

The law already DOES respect your other half,thats why there's legislation to stop people discriminating based on sexuality

Can you back this up please I would be very intrested in the law as far as gay couples been treated in the Hospitals?


On the parade!
The Pride parade is a commemoration of the Stone wall event, a dedication to the principle that people should not fear for their lives and livelihoods because of their sexual orientation. Even though the behaviour of some may be considered "over the top," it is based upon the principle that they will not be shamed back into the closet by anyone, that they will not be forced into silence due to fear. It also sends out the message to younger gay/lesbian people that they are not alone.

It is a very important symbol that is used to counter balance the negative anti gay/lesbian propaganda that is so apparent in the press these days.

Degsy

gcgirl wrote: »

well you defo got some thing going on that you hate the gay community ! Did your ex run off with another woman or something ? You tell me ? As for hospitals most if not all wil only let parents if not married in and plus you have no say what so ever over your partners treatment !

I dont hate the "gay community",there's no such thing as a community.You dont all think the same way,you dont all want the same things,there are militants and radicals who want to browbeat everybody into thier way of thinking and thats what i have the problem with.I judge people as i meet them,as individuals and i dont give a stuff about thier sexuality.This whole "gay pride" thing is simply looking for attention by a minority of people.I've met lots of gay people who find the whole thing embaressing,they want to get on with thier lives.And secondly hospitals will let anybody in within reason who wants to visit a patient.The fact that you said that and something about my sexuality means you're grasping at straws.

PeadarofAodh

If you can read around the exclamation marks, she's right. It's also a matter of making medical decisions - such as switching off a life support unit, agreeing to suggestion over certain medical paths by doctors etc.

This is an area I would probably support for same-sex partnerships.

gcgirl

personally i think anybody who is overly homophobe has a big problem like we live in the 21st centery and there are plenty of childless married couples out there and the gay/lesbian partner have no rights what so ever if anything happens their other half ! Plain as that ! You can't claim widow's pension or anything like that same goes for inheritance ! Everything goes to the family of partner who dies

DubArk

Bambi wrote: »

i visited me cousin in hospital last week, i was never asked who i was, for all they knew i could have been his life partner or whatever :pac:

Yes but did you have to make any life decisions on his behalf, imagine he was in a coma or on deaths door? FGS

PeadarofAodh

gcgirl wrote: »

personally i think anybody who is overly homophobe has a big problem like we live in the 21st centery and there are plenty of childless married couples out there and the gay/lesbian partner have no rights what so ever if anything happens their other half ! Plain as that ! You can't claim widow's pension or anything like that same goes for inheritance ! Everything goes to the family of partner who dies

As stated - nobody here is a homophobe or has said they hold any dislike for homosexuals.

gcgirl

Degsy wrote: »

I dont hate the "gay community",there's no such thing as a community.You dont all think the same way,you dont all want the same things,there are militants and radicals who want to browbeat everybody into thier way of thinking and thats what i have the problem with.I judge people as i meet them,as individuals and i dont give a stuff about thier sexuality.This whole "gay pride" thing is simply looking for attention by a minority of people.I've met lots of gay people who find the whole thing embaressing,they want to get on with thier lives.And secondly hospitals will let anybody in within reason who wants to visit a patient.The fact that you said that and something about my sexuality means you're grasping at straws.

who said i was gay ? I am a mum with 3 kids and if any of my kids came home and said mam i am in to girls or boy they wil be treated the same !

Degsy

DubArk wrote: »

Yes but did you have to make any life decisions on his behalf, imagine he was in a coma or on deaths door? FGS

No.And neither did you.

Fecking Greeks

Dyr

DubArk wrote: »

Yes but did you have to make any life decisions on his behalf, imagine he was in a coma or on deaths door? FGS

nope but then he's not married to his missus so hes probably in the same boat as the gays in that regard. Though he wouldnt be wearing a sailors uniform :pac:

PeadarofAodh

Bambi wrote: »

nope but then he's not married to his missus so hes probably in the same boat as the gays in that regard. Though he wouldnt be wearing a sailors uniform :pac:

/Backs out of thread quickly

DubArk

Degsy wrote: »

No.And neither did you.

Im not a partner of their relation??

Degsy

As for the person who says gays are treated unfairly with regard to inheritance etc,remember..thats why people make wills.You can leave your property to your cat if you so desire and theres nothing the law can do about it.

gcgirl

Degsy wrote: »

As for the person who says gays are treated unfairly with regard to inheritance etc,remember..thats why people make wills.You can leave your property to your cat if you so desire and theres nothing the law can do about it.

How many of us 30 somethings have will's ?

DubArk

Degsy wrote: »

As for the person who says gays are treated unfairly with regard to inheritance etc,remember..thats why people make wills.You can leave your property to your cat if you so desire and theres nothing the law can do about it.

But if you are the recognised partner in the eyes of the law you DON’T have to pay inheritance TAX, unlike Mr Pussy! :rolleyes:

Degsy

DubArk wrote: »

It is a very important symbol that is used to counter balance the negative anti gay/lesbian propaganda that is so apparent in the press these days.

What anti gay/lesbian propaganda in the press?I think you have a persecution complex.