Architectural Technology - Representation

sydthebeat

topcatcbr wrote: »

They will have 1 more soon

are you joining as a profile candidate? do you have to do a pop record?

No6

topcatcbr wrote: »

My prediction would be full membership of CIAT will be acceptable.

I just checked they're on the case!!

No6

sydthebeat wrote: »

are you joining as a profile candidate? do you have to do a pop record?

If you've done a recognised course and are in emploment you can join as an ACIAT (no pop record) but to progress to TCIAT or MCIAT you haveto do a POP record. Even unrecognised courses (all the Irish ones) will get exemptions to some of the underpinning Knowledge sections of the POP record, just ask London to do the Knowledge map and get the exemptions. The performance parts have to be filled in by everyone and are based on actual practice using for the most part real projects which you've worked on.

topcatcbr

No6 wrote: »

If you've done a recognised course and are in emploment you can join as an ACIAT (no pop record) but to progress to TCIAT or MCIAT you haveto do a POP record. Even unrecognised courses (all the Irish ones) will get exemptions to some of the underpinning Knowledge sections of the POP record, just ask London to do the Knowledge map and get the exemptions. The performance parts have to be filled in by everyone and are based on actual practice using for the most part real projects which you've worked on.

As above

Mellor

I wasn't counting student members, as they still include students that joined as students years ago in their numbers,
so they are not students any more, hence not student members,
its not even a real membership so to speak

No6

Mellor wrote: »

I wasn't counting student members, as they still include students that joined as students years ago in their numbers,
so they are not students any more, hence not student members,
its not even a real membership so to speak

Which is not real Mellor, CIAT members or IATGN? or even RIAI, I've often wondered how long it take before you get struck off, I know one MRIAI who left the country years ago and is still listed as an MRIAI and I doubt he's still paying subs, he definately didnt pay anyone else, staff incuded!! I know IATGN spend a lot of time on their lists removing duplicates but they're still free, watch the numbers plummet when people have to pay!!

Mellor

I was refering to students members of CIAT, but I suppose it stands for student members for all. I wouldn't count them towards active members, I doubt they are kept up to date. I agrre that IATGN will see a huge drop when a fee comes in,

sydthebeat

Mellor wrote: »

I was refering to students members of CIAT, but I suppose it stands for student members for all. I wouldn't count them towards active members, I doubt they are kept up to date. I agrre that IATGN will see a huge drop when a fee comes in,

i think the IATGN will see a huge drop in membership if, and when, their own 'standards list' is published.
How many current members are graduates of 'construction studies' or cad courses??? Will these be slid aside if ATI is a technicians only body?

Mellor

I imagine most are from tchnician courses, i'm basing this on where the IATGN was set up.

No6

The more I see of it the more I begin to think that the pop record system is quite fair, It takes into account your academic qualifications but looks primarily for practical experience. It still takes a number of years after qualification for an honours degree holder to get up to speed they'll still start at the bottom, you just can't beat window schedules can you!!!:D

pseudo-tech

How many of the 1600 registered with the IATGN because they were caught up in the momentum and feel good factor of the time and felt that this was going to be something positive?

How many of the 1600 would register now if they realised that the IATGN was going to turn into a limp biscuit?

Why support the R.I.A.I. when it is clear that we as technicians are only tolerated and not celebrated?

I understand the concerns expressed by some technicians about joining the CIAT because they are English. At this stage, they are the only show in town. The only group that if we join in large numbers we will be listened to.

Increased numbers in the RIAI will still only allow us one vote. Increased numbers in the IATGN will only allow the committee to tell anyone who listens that they represent x number of disenfranchised Technicians. Hello is any one out there?????

Can you hear me?????????

No6

Hey Pesudo Tech, not sure if the IATGN is a limp biscuit, they are comitted people doing their best, it just takes time and we all seem to be a instant gratification lot!! Currently CIAT is really the only show in town so get on your bike and join. The RIAI will never amount to much for technicians unless they fundementally change and I can't see that happening, you know little things like seats on council in proportion to mebership levels of all grades, they're the mouldy biscuit in the room if you ask me!! My God Have we Dicovered Penicillin!!

topcatcbr

pseudo-tech wrote: »

How many of the 1600 registered with the IATGN because they were caught up in the momentum and feel good factor of the time and felt that this was going to be something positive?

How many of the 1600 would register now if they realised that the IATGN was going to turn into a limp biscuit?

Why support the R.I.A.I. when it is clear that we as technicians are only tolerated and not celebrated?

I understand the concerns expressed by some technicians about joining the CIAT because they are English. At this stage, they are the only show in town. The only group that if we join in large numbers we will be listened to.

Increased numbers in the RIAI will still only allow us one vote. Increased numbers in the IATGN will only allow the committee to tell anyone who listens that they represent x number of disenfranchised Technicians. Hello is any one out there?????

Can you hear me?????????

a bit strong but

I hear ya

pseudo-tech

No6 I will have to disagree with you. I, like many others still support the idea of an Irish organisation representing Irish Architectural Technicians, but I believe the IATGN committee have lost too many opportunities. They have disconnected themselves from the 1600 people who registered. I appreciate they have a limited mandate, but a number of the committee are wearing too many hats and negotiating with different organisations with one hat on but unwilling to do so with the other. It has become undemocratic, which will only lead to undemocratic decision-making. Well done to RKQ and others who started this forum to give everyone a voice?

sinnerboy

Suggestion . Join the RIAI in large numbers . Boost the income stream there .
Then there is a financial consequence to adressing / not addressing AT concerns . Then we can exert influence .

No6

sinnerboy wrote: »

Suggestion . Join the RIAI in large numbers . Boost the income stream there .
Then there is a financial consequence to adressing / not addressing AT concerns . Then we can exert influence .

I fear there probably isn't that many elligilbe for membership without doing the exam, are they running one this year, I dont know?

Pusedo Tech I'm inclinded to agree with you about the communication from the IATGN comittee but they are volunteers so I'm also inclined to give them time, I was very dissapointed about the web-site going down but it had got out of hand as there was no moderation at least here if we call each other silly names etc we can get booted off. Please read through all the posts on this thread from the start (I know there is a lot) RKQ is not trying to set up an alternative to the IATGN and has made this clearfrom the start. This forum is for open discussion and debate about all issues that do affect us (including the IATGN) and once again I agree with you in that there has definately been some missed opprtunities but it might come good yet. Patience is a virtue a lot of us lack (including me!!)

Poor Uncle Tom

As I see it the IATGN has been set up to get all of us together, step one completed, big numbers, etc., well done.

The committee are then charged with the task of structuring the ATI from the IATGN (give the body a voice, so to speck) which takes time (someone said 5 years)

Once this is done we should have a forum which we can shape ourselves to get our voices, opinions and concerns out there to the organisations and people who will have to listen.

Also (and maybe most importantly) we will have a platform to support the younger, newer faces among us who are starting out in this profession, Christ, we didnt have any support, lets give it to them.

Anyway, give the IATGN a chance.

Mellor

No6 wrote: »

I fear there probably isn't that many elligilbe for membership without doing the exam, are they running one this year, I dont know?

What would you call many?
As we know, recently only WIT and DIT are accreddited, but these have are the two are the biggest, and have cured out the most graduates each year. From the last ten years, there should be maybe 500 eligble, how to spur them on, thats another challenge,
and for the others, I know they run a exam every two years, but this is because the numbers are low, if enough applied, they would run one this year.

Pusedo Tech I'm inclinded to agree with you about the communication from the IATGN comittee but they are volunteers so I'm also inclined to give them time, I was very dissapointed about the web-site going down but it had got out of hand as there was no moderation at least here if we call each other silly names etc we can get booted off. Please read through all the posts on this thread from the start (I know there is a lot) RKQ is not trying to set up an alternative to the IATGN and has made this clearfrom the start.

In principal I agree also, but i'd also stress the fact that they are volunteers, they do it in their spare time. They each have regular jobs to do day in day out, sometimes people may forget this.

No6

Spot on Uncle Tom

Mellor

Also, this thread is pretty much become a talk on representation etc,
so i'll probably merge the last few pages into the other thread, and then lock this.
its bad to have two concurrent threads

No6

Mellor I know one or two from LIT who are also elligible but havn't bothered why should they! they work in an office and don't need it and 350 makes for an expensive magazine, I did the same myself, went self employed and Joined immediately

Slig

As I am not self employed, what are the advantages of joining CIAT for example? Recently I have found that I am getting left behind in some aspects (Engineers body got sent notice on the revision to the H&S standards which I didnt know about) Will I get this service from the CIAT or will it just be the english regs etc.?

archtech

Slig wrote: »

As I am not self employed, what are the advantages of joining CIAT for example? Recently I have found that I am getting left behind in some aspects (Engineers body got sent notice on the revision to the H&S standards which I didnt know about) Will I get this service from the CIAT or will it just be the english regs etc.?

No you will get some information on the Irish Regs and even Irish publications. CIAT in the ROI has a rep on the BRAB, in case you didn't know.

No6

They also had a Health & Safety course in Galway at the start of june which was very good. I do have to say that the RIAI is very good for letting its members know what is going on although some of the CPD can be quite expensive.

topcatcbr

Just completed CIAT application form. Going in Post Today

archtech

The fact that both CIAT + RIAI do keep their members upto speed with changes with regs etc should be reason enough for AT to join either, if ATs want to keep upto date.

archtech

topcatcbr wrote: »

Just completed CIAT application form. Going in Post Today

Great best of luck with the pop record.

No6

Agreed Archtech there's so much change happening you've got to do your best to keep up to date.

No6

Good stuff Topcatcbr, have fun with the POP record, I'm still in the middle of mine that hardest part I've found is finding the time to do it and remembering what jobs I did years ago and then geting access to the records that fit some of the sections better that some of my more recent ones.

pseudo-tech

Mellor, the committee may be volunteers with regular jobs but the current situation deserves better. This cannot be handled as if it is a hobby or past time, it deserves urgency and attention. I do not agree with poor Uncle Tom that this will create “a platform to support the younger, newer faces among us who are starting out in this profession”. If you do not defend the current position achieved by those in self-employment then we will be left in a weaker and more vulnerable position for those coming behind. If we do not react and allow the RIAI to mould our future for the benefit of their full members, technicians in the future will be feeding from the scraps that fall from the Architects table yet again, sending us back 20 years.

Poor Uncle Tom

These pop records are tough going, trying to remember back so far, I've forgotten what I had for breakfast already.

Probably the way to go though.

Any update on the IBCI apart from "we'll get back to you when we decide our new entry requirements"?

Poor Uncle Tom

pseudo-tech wrote: »

Mellor, the committee may be volunteers with regular jobs but the current situation deserves better. This cannot be handled as if it is a hobby or past time, it deserves urgency and attention. I do not agree with poor Uncle Tom that this will create “a platform to support the younger, newer faces among us who are starting out in this profession”. If you do not defend the current position achieved by those in self-employment then we will be left in a weaker and more vulnerable position for those coming behind. If we do not react and allow the RIAI to mould our future for the benefit of their full members, technicians in the future will be feeding from the scraps that fall from the Architects table yet again, sending us back 20 years.

Surely if we "allow the RIAI to mould our future" we will be "feeding from the scraps that fall from the Architects table".

I believe we need to direct our own futures by nurturing those starting out in the profession. But this is just my opinion.

pseudo-tech

"I believe we need to direct our own futures by nurturing those starting out in the profession. But this is just my opinion."

How do you propose that we nurture "those starting out in the profession", by teaching them that they need to be subservient to others, by showing them how it used to be before we allowed it to be taken from us. Alternatively, do we making them feel that they are equal professionals capable of standing on their own, making decision for themselves?

Those who question the way in which the IATGN committee have managed the last two years are often charged with seeking to undermine the IATGN.
That is so far from the truth as anyone who bothers to debate the issue cares about the issue. Trying to undermine those who have offered advice and were not listened to, those who have become frustrated with the poor performance and lack of urgency is equally counter productive. However, in reality, the real argument should be about finding balance between the 5-year plan and the importance of protecting those who put their faith in the committee. If they are not up to the task then say so. If they need financial support then say so. Most of all stop whinging, about it being, part-time, spare-time, amateur, learning, I do not know what I am doing, etc. etc. etc. It is too important a task for excuses. You have requested a chance to be given to the IATGN “to provide a platform to support the younger, newer faces”. If they continue at the current pace there will be nothing left to give them, what we will all have signed up to, will be more restrictions on what we can and cannot do, but this time it will be cast in stone.

No6

No news on that Uncle Tom head firmly in sand hoping we'll all go away, cheques returned all round!!!

No6

I'm afraid the only thing I can suggest Pusedo Tech is to get involved yourself and see if you can bring anything to the process that will speed it up.

sinnerboy

I have waited 23 years for this . Perhaps this is part of the problem - waiting , I mean .

However , back in 85 on the boat to London we left few behind . We were all snapped up by that then booming economy . I woke up one day to find 10 years had passed . Back to the old sod in 95 - and been busy-busy since - just doing it . As a paid employee I must stress - KUDOS to anyone who starts their own practice ( any practice ) . So I have not had to face the issues which are confronting a lot of you . But I have experienced a challenging and rewarding career and quite honestly would not like to earn a crust any other way .

So when would have been a better time ? Weren't many of us around here in the 80's . Same first first half of 90's . Second half of 90's many returned , just glad to be back . For the last 8 years we have been joined by professionals from overseas and on this mornings news I hear many are leaving now . So when would have been a better time ?

There is no better time than now . Agreed a "shuddering halt" economy ( thanks Minister Lenihan for the inspiring assessment ) is hardly the best backdrop . But Poor Uncle Tom has shown resources to cope with a worse time . And now is all we have .

The task ahead ....

1. Group together ( I say within RIAI - get in there and influence change)
2. Name ourselves , once and for all
3. Define what we do - always a work in progress . If RIAI determine this without us - get them to change it - they won't do this if we are outside that tent
4. Promote ourselves . For brevity , or laziness , when making small talk at weddings and christenings I have fallen into the habit of saying "I'm an Architect" only expanding on that if the stranger was interested . From now on it's Architectural Technician
5. Most importantly - keep doing what we've always done . Maybe with more balls though .

Poor Uncle Tom

Well it isn't all doom and gloom, yes a lot of us have seen it in simpler times, it hasn't got any easier, that is why I think our experiences, good and bad, can help others.

I'm not saying the sun shines from the IATGN, I'm saying give them a chance. In the meantime if we join CIAT, RIAI Tech, or whoever, then good. The choice is ours, just don't do nothing.

Mellor

pseudo-tech wrote: »

Mellor, the committee may be volunteers with regular jobs but the current situation deserves better. This cannot be handled as if it is a hobby or past time, it deserves urgency and attention.

Deserves better?
With all due respect, what have you, or I, or the thousands of others just sitting here waiting got up and done. Its all well and good saying it needs urgency, but saying so from the sidelines is a little hypocritical.
When people are reluctant to get involved offically, it will be a slow process.
When its by volunteers, it will be a slow process. I'd love to be able to help, i'd love to be the hero and save the ATs of ireland, but I can't afford 20 hours a week of my time for free. And until we get a fee taking body, it will be a slow process.

sinnerboy wrote: »

1. Group together ( I say within RIAI - get in there and influence change)
2. Name ourselves , once and for all
3. Define what we do - always a work in progress . If RIAI determine this without us - get them to change it - they won't do this if we are outside that tent
4. Promote ourselves . For brevity , or laziness , when making small talk at weddings and christenings I have fallen into the habit of saying "I'm an Architect" only expanding on that if the stranger was interested . From now on it's Architectural Technician
5. Most importantly - keep doing what we've always done . Maybe with more balls though .

Agreed 100%.

If we all came together in a single organisation, we would achieve critical mass. Demands easily made and met. If all the eligble ATs joined RIAI, we would make up 40-50% of the body. With pro-rata representation we will not be moulded by the RIAI, but instead we can mould the the organisation.
Nothing will get handed to us, ever

Mellor

The two "meeting" threads have been merged into this one

pseudo-tech

Mellor, It is difficult to get involved with a closed up organisation. It is neatly packaged, with Academics controlling direction, with committee members chosen (not elected) for their compatible frames of reference. In short, they are a motley crew of academics, career promoters, hangers on and a small group who genuinely care. The IATGN has been offered money by many members and declined. They have been offered advice and brushed it aside until the idea was one of their principle participants idea, then it was ok. To get involved would mean to be vetted or outvoted by a group of friends who fear honest questioning. RKQ called for open and transparent debate, something we have not seen since the inception of the IATGN. This was reinforced when they shut down their discussion forum as they were under pressure from questions being posed. I also believe that RKQ and his group of merry men met due to the frustration they felt about inadequate representation and lack of performance. Has anything developed from this group? Something positive that we can get involved with and move in a forward direction? It is difficult to see the light when the people leading the crusade are anchored in the past, and tied up in academic ignorance.

No6

Mellor I think that perhaps you'd find if all of the 1600 joined the RIAI we'd only be at around 1/3 of the numbers, I believe they currently have aorund 3000 members, May start declining a bit with the current recession, Personally I think it would be very slow to change, whats wrong with CIAT it is 100% for Technicians, in Ireland its 100% Irish and wouldn't have a conflict of interest like the RIAI has. It also has international status and about 6000 or 7000 other members around the world (ok mostly in england) If 500 or 1600 Irish technicians joined CIAT today they might be in a position to have a full time manned office in Ireland which a lot of us seem to want. If we give CIAT some more teeth by getting more numbers on board I think we'd all see more benifit a lot quickly than from the RIAI route but in truth sitting on the fence is pointless at this stage. Pusedo tech seems to think there was some magic solution arrived at in Portlaoise, there wasn't, whatever routes we choose as individuals there's pain and effort involved along the way. If you'd like to get involved in one any or all of the possible groups I'm sure there's people here who can point you in the right direction but bashing the people who are already trying very hard may not be the right way to go it, if you dont like the direction one is going choose another one a see what you can do.

topcatcbr

No6 wrote: »

Good stuff Topcatcbr, have fun with the POP record, I'm still in the middle of mine that hardest part I've found is finding the time to do it and remembering what jobs I did years ago and then geting access to the records that fit some of the sections better that some of my more recent ones.

Pm me your details

topcatcbr

pseudo-tech are you a fee paying member of a professional org. If so im sure they would be glad of any assistance you can give them in resolving these issues.

RKQ

I see the debate continues to blossom.

As you know No.6, I think this tread / forum is something that grew out of our Portlaoise meeting.

10 applied to IBCI, as they are acceptable to AIB. Some, in IATGN had already applied!
All cheques were returned.

We are independent self employed members of IATGN. We met because the Committee refused to tackle the AIB issue. I feel this decision will harm the IATGN especially when a membership fee is introduced. I feel It failed to meet the AIB challange and failed to represent their self employed members!

Why did the IATGN close the forum on the night of our meeting? We are all educated people, so make your own mind up.

This forum is an extremly important asset, allowing us to freely debate the issues. Communication at a national level is very important.
I want information to be passed on, to all involved. I'm tired of the Cold War secrets attitude, the in-fighting, the "them and us" arguments etc.
I hope this forum can be positive and achieve more.

We at Portlaoise meeting intent to contact the Law Society, continue our contacts with the Past Presidents of the IBCI, contact the Cabinet and AIB etc to achieve proactive progress.

Many at Portlaoise decided to join CIAT.
Unfortunately we ran out of time, at the meeting (3.5 hours!) so we were unable to asign roles and set achievement dates.
We may need to meet again.

topcatcbr

The one org open to all arch tech is the CIAT and in my view is the way to go. This is after alot of deliberating and assessing the merits of both orgs. I would need to wait a year before being eligable for the entrance exam to RIAI and some might say this swayed me. and this is true but not because i am taking the easy option as the pop record may take longer than this for tech membership of CIAT. But because I realise how restrictive (exclusive) the RIAI tech is. This along with the Eliteist attitudes of the RIAI tech members as displayed during the "Potential members meeting" in DIT last friday.

sydthebeat

although i wasnt there topcatbr, can i assume you are probably talking about riai tech members disapproving of membership of graduates of 'non-accrediated construction studies' type courses??

topcatcbr

sydthebeat wrote: »

although i wasnt there topcatbr, can i assume you are probably talking about riai tech members disapproving of membership of graduates of 'non-accrediated construction studies' type courses??

You assume correctly. and other Architectural technology courses

Mellor

sydthebeat wrote: »

although i wasnt there topcatbr, can i assume you are probably talking about riai tech members disapproving of membership of graduates of 'non-accrediated construction studies' type courses??

topcatcbr wrote: »

You assume correctly. and other Architectural technology courses

Lads remember this forum is still bound by the over all boards rules and comments about external bodies should be honest.

I was there the other night, and they don't disprove of non-accredited courses. It doesn't stop you getting in, it just takes longer.
To me this makes sense, as the ten or so courses in the country are not equal (and by varying amounts). Some, were accredited and let this slip away, they are just below he min level and if they bothered they could easily get back in.

I think assessing each course on its merits is the best way to maintain standards.




On the other hand, CIATs approach does annoy me.
People with degrees from irish colleges have to go the long way to Chartership. Which is bullshit imo. They base thier requirements on the national framework. But their is no direct relation between the UK and the republic framework.
We use different naming here and we suffer. Most three years courses here are level 7 (bar a small few I believe). In the UK, the 3 year AT degrees are level 8. So, even though my degree may be just as good, I am not afforded the same respect by the CIAT. Infact, it may even be better than the lower band.

This is one reason why I think an international org is not ideal.
Irish and UK members are not equal as of yet.
Of course its catch 22, if they were equal, they'd have more members, if they had more members, they have an irish office and maybe could assess the situation equally.

topcatcbr

Mellor wrote: »

Lads remember this forum is still bound by the over all boards rules and comments about external bodies should be honest.

I was there the other night, and they don't disprove of non-accredited courses. It doesn't stop you getting in, it just takes longer.
To me this makes sense, as the ten or so courses in the country are not equal (and by varying amounts). Some, were accredited and let this slip away, they are just below he min level and if they bothered they could easily get back in.

I think assessing each course on its merits is the best way to maintain standards.




On the other hand, CIATs approach does annoy me.
People with degrees from irish colleges have to go the long way to Chartership. Which is bullshit imo. They base thier requirements on the national framework. But their is no direct relation between the UK and the republic framework.
We use different naming here and we suffer. Most three years courses here are level 7 (bar a small few I believe). In the UK, the 3 year AT degrees are level 8. So, even though my degree may be just as good, I am not afforded the same respect by the CIAT. Infact, it may even be better than the lower band.

This is one reason why I think an international org is not ideal.
Irish and UK members are not equal as of yet.
Of course its catch 22, if they were equal, they'd have more members, if they had more members, they have an irish office and maybe could assess the situation equally.

The courses may not be equal but the individuals ability may this is why you have an exam to prove this

10 years waiting is bull**** imo. It proves nothing. It only serves to restrict membership.

You complain about the CIAT not treating your level 7 award the same as their uk level 8. Its a bit of a contridiction considering you defend the RIAI position for not treating Irish level 7 awards equally. The education framework is what we have to work with for better or worse.

RKQ

10 years experience seems crazy.

RIAI Tech should have approved a number of courses by now.
They should have an exam, open to all, that sorts out the admission.
Maybe ones grade would dictate one grade in the organisation before full membership ie 40 % graduate 12months to full membership, 60% Associate member 6 months, 61% plus automatic full member!

CIAT are Technologists for Technicians but the entry is mixed up.
Its a fact that our education system produces better Technicians than the equivalent course time in UK. This was tru in the 80's when our National Certificate was far superior to UK Higher Nat Cert.

CIAT should understand these differences and act appropiately.

I am quite intrigued why RIAI Tech members seem to recommend the CIAT?
I noticed this at our Portlaoise meeting and on these pages.
Why do RIAI Tech members do this?
If they don't believe in or can't change their organisation then maybe they should leave it altogether.

I doubt the the IATGN policy of joining RIAI Tech & CIAT to "Change them from within, learn from them and influence them", will work.

Once you join one, or both will you have the stomach to join another organisation? Membership takes a bit of work!:)