M8 motorway (general thread)

Amtmann

In terms of numbering of roads, it's just a system really. No one would say that the N5 is more important than the N6, N7 or N8 (all Ms now), it's just the system that national roads radiating out from Dublin are numbered anticlockwise. The M8 branches off from the M7 in an anticlockwise way so its number is higher. Ditto for the M9. This gives the M7 the appearance of being more important notionally. Actually it is really only more important from Portlaoise to Dublin, but only because it takes M8 traffic from there on and M9 traffic from Kilcullen on).

veryangryman

Tremelo wrote: »

In terms of numbering of roads, it's just a system really. No one would say that the N5 is more important than the N6, N7 or N8 (all Ms now), it's just the system that national roads radiating out from Dublin are numbered anticlockwise. The M8 branches off from the M7 in an anticlockwise way so its number is higher. Ditto for the M9. This gives the M7 the appearance of being more important notionally. Actually it is really only more important from Portlaoise to Dublin, but only because it takes M8 traffic from there on and M9 traffic from Kilcullen on).

Beat me to it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roads_in_Ireland#National_primary_roads

cantalach

Teddy455 wrote: »

In dublin on junctions going onto the N7 there is only limerick on the signs without mentioning cork.

Maybe I just got lucky, but this is the very first junction I checked on Google Streetview...

Exiting M50 northbound at Red Cow

Exiting M50 southbound at Red Cow

Approaching Red Cow on Naas Road

Teddy455

In terms of numbering of roads, it's just a system really. No one would say that the N5 is more important than the N6, N7 or N8 (all Ms now), it's just the system that national roads radiating out from Dublin are numbered anticlockwise. The M8 branches off from the M7 in an anticlockwise way so its number is higher. Ditto for the M9. This gives the M7 the appearance of being more important notionally. Actually it is really only more important from Portlaoise to Dublin, but only because it takes M8 traffic from there on and M9 traffic from Kilcullen on).

That dosen't really answer my questions!
Why didn't they make a road from cork to dublin as the are the most travelled destinations in the country?
And why should they only put Limerick as a priority over Cork on road signs.

It is also really confusing if you dont know the roads and want to get to cork the second biggest city in the country with signs only saying limerick which has lower than half the population of cork!

Maybe I just got lucky, but this is the very first junction I checked on Google Streetview...

Exiting M50 northbound at Red Cow

Exiting M50 southbound at Red Cow

Approaching Red Cow on Naas Road

Of course they will have signage for cork on the M50 the most buisest road in the country. I mean other junctions which are not as used as much as the M50.

marmurr1916

Teddy455 wrote: »

That dosen't really answer my questions!
Why didn't they make a road from cork to dublin as the are the most travelled destinations in the country?

And why should they only put Limerick as a priority over Cork on road signs.

It is also really confusing if you dont know the roads and want to get to cork the second biggest city in the country with signs only saying limerick which has lower than half the population of cork!

This has been explained to you. The numbering system runs anti-clockwise from Dublin. That's why the M8 splits off from the N7/M7 beyond Portlaoise and why there isn't a continuously numbered route from Dublin to Cork.

It's not exactly unprecedented. The only specifically named at the start of the route from Glasgow to London is Carlisle, a city about the size of Limerick, and a lot smaller than London!

Even places like Manchester and Birmingham, both on this route, don't appear on road signs posted until you get well into England.

The route isn't continuously numbered either. It starts in Glasgow as the M74, becomes the A74 (M) for a section, then becomes the M6, before merging with the M1 after Birmingham.

Teddy455 wrote: »

Of course they will have signage for cork on the M50 the most buisest road in the country. I mean other junctions which are not as used as much as the M50.

Here's one that's not on the M50:

http://maps.google.ie/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=53.325542,-6.346922&spn=0,0.084543&z=14&layer=c&cbll=53.325491,-6.34706&panoid=FENjCdC8-t55GKTix_0QJg&cbp=12,240.6,,0,10.12

You can't put every possible destination from each and every junction on each and every sign post. That's what maps and Sat Navs are for.

I remember relatives complaining to me about the poor sign posting on the M50 in Dublin. They had got the ferry to Dublin from England and wanted to go to Cork.

Once they found the M50, they followed the signs for 'M50 Southbound' because they knew Cork was south of Dublin. Eventually they got onto the M11/N11, drove to Wexford and then followed the N25 to Cork.

I asked them if they had thought of buying a road map of Ireland. The couple of quid it would have cost them would have saved them a fortune in fuel...

IMO, people who are too mean to buy a map for a couple of quid haven't any right to complain when they get lost in a foreign country.

Amtmann

Besides, Cork is clearly signposted on the M50. It might not be signed aggressively, but it is signed and quite visible to those paying adequate attention.

L1011

Teddy455 wrote: »

That dosen't really answer my questions!

It does, if you'd read the response properly.

Teddy455 wrote: »

Why didn't they make a road from cork to dublin as the are the most travelled destinations in the country?

They're not. The road to Belfast has about three times the traffic, for starters.

Teddy455 wrote: »

And why should they only put Limerick as a priority over Cork on road signs.

Because thats the way the system, which was explained in great detail, works. The road to Galway (large) is a branch off the road to Sligo (small) for the same reason.

Teddy455

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy455
Why didn't they make a road from cork to dublin as the are the most travelled destinations in the country?

They're not. The road to Belfast has about three times the traffic, for starters.

For starters Belfast is in a different country!

cantalach

Here's the sign at the junction between the Roe Highway and the Great Eastern Highway in Perth, Australia:

Clicky

The Great Eastern Hwy (as the name suggests) connects Perth to the eastern states, but you don't see any mention of Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, etc. on the sign. Instead, it mentions Northam and Kalgoorlie - two places that most people have never even heard of.

L1011

Teddy455 wrote: »

For starters Belfast is in a different country!

OK, the road to the border has about 3x higher traffic than the M8 then.

This is the second most deranged argument I've seen about the N/M8 number, the most deranged being someone on the PRC site going mental that it was an anti-Cork bias that the "M1" wasn't the number for it.

Teddy455

Im just saying it would be more helpful if they put a sign for cork and waterford on junctions on the N7
eg. Kingswood Interchange, Citywest Road, Castlewarden Interchange.

whyulittle

Teddy455 wrote: »

Im just saying it would be more helpful if they put a sign for cork and waterford here.http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Perth,+Western+Australia,+Australia&sll=53.41291,-8.24389&sspn=11.410074,33.815918&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Perth+Western+Australia,+Australia&ll=-31.891797,116.027513&spn=0.007962,0.016512&z=17&layer=c&cbll=-31.89213,116.027396&panoid=d9J3o9JF16VEifKVg1miXw&cbp=12,159.61,,0,-1.08

In Western Australia?!

Cork's not that big you know.

Our man in Havana

Some people are clearly deluded.

L1011

Teddy455 wrote: »

Im just saying it would be more helpful if they put a sign for cork and waterford on junctions on the N7
eg. Kingswood Interchange, Citywest Road, Castlewarden Interchange.

Most interchanges HAVE them already.

Also, if you're intending to drive to Cork without knowing what roads go there, you shouldn't be driving. Anywhere, let alone Cork.

Jayuu

The simple fact is that the road you are on when you exit the M50 is the N7 which becomes the M7. Signposting convention in this case always would have the primary destination of the road you are on as the first named place, irrespective of the size of the destination. The M7's primary destination is Limerick therefore it gets priority on the signage. It would be completely confusing to have Cork as the primary destination for the M7 because its not.

I've had a look at some of the singage on the M7 motorway and its fairly consistent in signposting Limerick, Cork and Waterford as the M7 (M8 - M9) at first and then after the M9 split, it advertisese Limerick, Cork and the next major town as the M7 (M8). Once you then get on to the M8 itself then Cork is clearly signed as the primary destination.

Its clear, its simple and its consistent.

runway16

The only issue I have with the signage on the route is that on the M50 or N7, no mention is made of M7-M8-M9. I believe all signage for the route should very clearly show that the N7 leads to these motorways because the N8 and N9 basically dont exist anymore. It must be extremely confusing for foreigners who may not be aware that in Ireland, we would never have an N7 and M7 running side by side due our route numbering convention.

Teddy455

whyulittle wrote: »

In Western Australia?!

Cork's not that big you know.

That was a mistake that I soon corrected on my post.

Amtmann

Seriously bad crash on the old N8/R639 last night just south of M8 junction 7. Three killed: http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0122/rta.html

This is the second fatal crash that I know of on the old N8 in this area since the M8 opened. I used to hate driving it before the motorway was completed as, even though it is generally wide, the AADT seemed particularly unsuited to the road along this section.

cargo

Tremelo wrote: »

Seriously bad crash on the old N8/R639 last night just south of M8 junction 7. Three killed: http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0122/rta.html

This is the second fatal crash that I know of on the old N8 in this area since the M8 opened. I used to hate driving it before the motorway was completed as, even though it is generally wide, the AADT seemed particularly unsuited to the road along this section.

Hi Tremelo,

Not that it makes a whole lot of difference but I think this happened in between junction 7 and Cashel itself (just a few metres South of where the "Welcome to Cashel" signs are) so this stretch would have been bypassed a few years ago by the opening of the Cashel bypass. Strange that a head on would occur here as you said further South on the old N8 is more dangerous.

etchyed

marmurr1916 wrote: »

This has been explained to you. The numbering system runs anti-clockwise from Dublin. That's why the M8 splits off from the N7/M7 beyond Portlaoise and why there isn't a continuously numbered route from Dublin to Cork.

Whether a route is continuously numbered or not is quite irrelevant to the road user. I think you're all (not just you marmurr) being quite unreasonable in your responses to this poster. What you all seem to be failing to grasp is that the M7 is the road to Cork until the split. Look at it this way: the national routes from Dublin to Cork and from Dublin to Limerick share a motorway until just after Portlaoise. Here the motorway splits in two and because of the anticlockwise numbering system the bit that goes to Limerick keeps the number 7 and the bit that goes to Cork gets an 8 and a new set of junction numbers.

Although the route numbers might give you the impression that the M8 and M9 are merely minor branches off a more important road, they're not. The reality is that the M7 splits in three. The fact that the bit to Limerick keeps the number 7 shouldn't mean Limerick is the only control destination. I would argue that all three should be on all signs. Or even better, bring back "THE SOUTH".

marmurr1916 wrote: »

That's what maps and Sat Navs are for.

...

IMO, people who are too mean to buy a map for a couple of quid haven't any right to complain when they get lost in a foreign country.

MYOB wrote: »

Also, if you're intending to drive to Cork without knowing what roads go there, you shouldn't be driving. Anywhere, let alone Cork.

The "buy a map/what's wrong with satnav/shouldn't be on the road if you don't know the way" brigade out in force again. This really isn't about that. The M7/M8 forms a continuous motorway from the capital to the 2nd city. Long distance motorways ending in major cities should have their end destination as a control destination on signage throughout. Please don't tell me you any of you have a problem with that.

MYOB wrote: »

Most interchanges HAVE them already.

And? Teddy455's point is that they all should.

L1011

etchyed wrote: »

Although the route numbers might give you the impression that the M8 and M9 are merely minor branches off a more important road, they're not. The reality is that the M7 splits in three. The fact that the bit to Limerick keeps the number 7 shouldn't mean Limerick is the only control destination. I would argue that all three should be on all signs. Or even better, bring back "THE SOUTH".

From memory, regional destinations such as that were deleted from the TSM in the 1990s.

etchyed wrote: »

The "buy a map/what's wrong with satnav/shouldn't be on the road if you don't know the way" brigade out in force again. This really isn't about that. The M7/M8 forms a continuous motorway from the capital to the 2nd city. Long distance motorways ending in major cities should have their end destination as a control destination on signage throughout. Please don't tell me you any of you have a problem with that.

And Cork/Waterford *ARE* on signage "throughout" the M7 (until the appropriate splits).

If you don't know what road to find to go somewhere, you shouldn't attempt to drive there.

etchyed wrote: »

And? Teddy455's point is that they all should.

Do you know how small and pointless the Castlewarden interchange he mentioned actually *IS*? It effectively serves some countryside and a restaurant.

etchyed

MYOB wrote: »

From memory, regional destinations such as that were deleted from the TSM in the 1990s.

Yes and that's a shame IMO.

And Cork/Waterford *ARE* on signage "throughout" the M7 (until the appropriate splits).

I'm fully aware of that. The poster means that some signs offline pointing to the motorway don't mention Cork.

If you don't know what road to find to go somewhere, you shouldn't attempt to drive there.

Why do you keep saying this? This isn't about that but you seem to have some sort of preoccupation with people who don't plan ahead. People who do this, get lost and then complain about bad signage irritate me too but that's really not the point here.

Signs pointing on to the interurban motorway to our second city (Cork) should have Cork on them.

Do you know how small and pointless the Castlewarden interchange he mentioned actually *IS*? It effectively serves some countryside and a restaurant.

And even here, like everywhere else, signs pointing on to the national primary route and motorway to Cork should have Cork on them.

I'll ask again, how can you have a problem with this?

runway16

Isnt this really just a case of "second city syndrome", and possibly a dose of "People's Republic of Cork-ism" thrown in?

(Actually i'd argue Belfast is the second city, but hey ho...)

There is plenty of signage indicating Cork. You couldnt miss it. Its on the M50, the Naas Road, everywhere. I just do not see the problem, apart from the possibility of a Corkonian's ego being bruised.

I see a big problem with "The south" because it is utterly confusing to foreigners, and indeed many Irish people and that is why it was removed. Limerick isnt really the South, its the Mid west. How do you reconcile that one? This route is also for traffic to Ennis - which absolutely definitely isnt the South.....

etchyed

I see a big problem with "The south" because it is utterly confusing to foreigners, and indeed many Irish people and that is why it was removed. Limerick isnt really the South, its the Mid west. How do you reconcile that one? This route is also for traffic to Ennis - which absolutely definitely isnt the South.....

Point taken.

runway16 wrote: »

Isnt this really just a case of "second city syndrome", and possibly a dose of "People's Republic of Cork-ism" thrown in?
(Actually i'd argue Belfast is the second city, but hey ho...)

No. It's a matter of good signage practice.

There is plenty of signage indicating Cork. You couldnt miss it. Its on the M50, the Naas Road, everywhere.

I'm fully aware of that. But if Teddy455 is correct in his/her assertions, there are some junctions with the M7 that do not have Cork as a signed destination.

I just do not see the problem, apart from the possibility of a Corkonian's ego being bruised.

THE PROBLEM IS that ALL signposts for the national Dublin-Cork route should have Cork as a control destination. The fact that the vast majority do indicates that this is also the opinion of the NRA. There are just some junctions left where this is not the case.

Really and truly, WHAT is possessing you all to object to this point? There is every reason why Cork should be signposted on this route and pretty much no reason why not. I don't even see why any of you care so vehemently as to make up spurious arguments against it. It's got nothing to do with lazy drivers who don't plan ahead or PRC citizens with a bee in their bonnet about their beloved city not being signposted from all over the island. It's just a matter of good practice.

I'm not from Cork and I'm the kind of person who plans a journey ahead. But I can see that it's just common sense that Cork should be a control destination on all M7 signage until the M8 diverge. Because until that point the road is the national route from Dublin to Cork.

I'm aware that most of the signage is indeed as I've described and that therefore this isn't really a big issue. I'm just posting because Teddy455 has had people jump down his neck for making a valid, albeit not overly important, point. The responses here have been more like the kind of thing I'd see on After Hours, with people saying "shure what's the problem?" and then bringing up red herrings about Cork egos and lazy drivers.

Look, I'm aware this isn't hugely important in the great scheme of things and it's not something that keeps me awake at night. But seeing people argue against a valid point seemingly just for the sake of it pisses me off.

Amtmann

etchyed wrote: »

Really and truly, WHAT is possessing you all to object to this point?

From my reading of the thread, no one (or at least not more than one poster) has objected as such to having Cork as a control destination (I certainly have no objections for instance). As I see it, the poster asked a question as to why Cork was not the principal destination on signage, and the signing and route numbering system was explained by way of answer. Advocacy of changing the signage convention is a slightly different issue I would have thought.

etchyed

Tremelo wrote: »

From my reading of the thread, no one (or at least not more than one poster) has objected as such to having Cork as a control destination (I certainly have no objections for instance).As I see it, the poster asked a question as to why Cork was not the principal destination on signage, and the signing and route numbering system was explained by way of answer.

And indeed, the route numbering system is a perfectly valid reason why Limerick should be physically displayed first on signs. Nitpicking over the order of appearance would be OTT IMO.

Advocacy of changing the signage convention is a slightly different issue I would have thought.

I'm not arguing in favour of that either. I'm just saying that Teddy455's point that Cork should be signed offline at minor junctions with the M7 makes perfect sense and objection to it seemed unreasonable. Admittedly not all of the responses did object but reading the last couple of pages, you get a general sense of a new poster being put down for wondering (quite reasonably) why there is no mention of Cork on some signs pointing to the Dublin-Cork road.

marmurr1916

etchyed wrote: »

Whether a route is continuously numbered or not is quite irrelevant to the road user. I think you're all (not just you marmurr) being quite unreasonable in your responses to this poster. What you all seem to be failing to grasp is that the M7 is the road to Cork until the split.

I'm fully aware of that. So what? Cork is signed along the N7/M7 until the split.

Links to signposts at various N7/M7 junctions between the M50 and the M7/M8 split. Note that Cork is clearly signposted along this road:

N7, jct 7: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=53.256819,-6.556048&spn=0,0.042272&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=53.256743,-6.556194&panoid=g_jaVuSKkAbgVv14SK-piA&cbp=12,247.98,,0,16.24

N7, jct 8: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=53.239177,-6.619091&spn=0,0.084543&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=53.238921,-6.619422&panoid=MyaLoF3yS3pM4UA0JBMuRw&cbp=12,241.04,,0,8

M7, jct 9: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=53.239177,-6.619091&spn=0,0.084543&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=53.238921,-6.619422&panoid=MyaLoF3yS3pM4UA0JBMuRw&cbp=12,241.04,,0,8

M7, jct 10: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=53.220116,-6.700287&spn=0,0.169086&t=h&z=13&layer=c&cbll=53.219772,-6.700636&panoid=cEWqK6rBBBKLwx2UUi9W1Q&cbp=12,206.59,,0,5.18

M7, jct 11: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=53.174303,-6.746297&spn=0,0.338173&t=h&z=12&layer=c&cbll=53.174303,-6.746297&panoid=Y7gealEGJ0R07sygPi4k2w&cbp=12,211.89,,0,6.01

M7, jct 14: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=53.148495,-6.997497&spn=0,0.021136&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.148535,-6.997171&panoid=WrbAWejVNKyL51hlIvgN4g&cbp=12,260.95,,0,8.47

M7, jct 16: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=53.058961,-7.228693&spn=0,0.005284&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.059313,-7.228214&panoid=8x7-60gJShsjcOjwv_eC-A&cbp=12,222.8,,0,12.22

Look at it this way: the national routes from Dublin to Cork and from Dublin to Limerick share a motorway until just after Portlaoise. Here the motorway splits in two and because of the anticlockwise numbering system the bit that goes to Limerick keeps the number 7 and the bit that goes to Cork gets an 8 and a new set of junction numbers.

Although the route numbers might give you the impression that the M8 and M9 are merely minor branches off a more important road, they're not.

Why would you get the impression that a motorway is a minor road?

The reality is that the M7 splits in three. The fact that the bit to Limerick keeps the number 7 shouldn't mean Limerick is the only control destination. I would argue that all three should be on all signs. Or even better, bring back "THE SOUTH".

As you can see, Cork and Waterford are clearly signposted along the N7/M7.

The "buy a map/what's wrong with satnav/shouldn't be on the road if you don't know the way" brigade out in force again. This really isn't about that.

Yes it is. You can't expect signposting to cover all possibilities, to sign all possible destinations from one particular point. If you don't buy a map or get sat nav, it's impossible to plan your journey, unless you know every single road and route number in the country like the back of your hand.

The M7/M8 forms a continuous motorway from the capital to the 2nd city. Long distance motorways ending in major cities should have their end destination as a control destination on signage throughout. Please don't tell me you any of you have a problem with that.

Cork is signposted all along the N7/M7 until the M7/M8 split - check the Google Streetmap links and you'll see this to be the case.

Amtmann

etchyed wrote: »

I'm just saying that Teddy455's point that Cork should be signed offline at minor junctions with the M7 makes perfect sense and objection to it seemed unreasonable. Admittedly not all of the responses did object but reading the last couple of pages, you get a general sense of a new poster being put down for wondering (quite reasonably) why there is no mention of Cork on some signs pointing to the Dublin-Cork road.

I'm with him and you on that - it should be signed at those places.

[thinking out loud]On a related point, I think I've noticed a weak trend in this and the parent forum for some new posters, who happen to espouse views that are at odds with the majority of the posters here, to be shouted down or crowded out, or at least to be made feel slightly unwelcome. This particular forum is not constitutionally pro-roads or pro-NRA; in fact constitutionally, I envisage it as neutral. Perhaps I should amend the charter just to make it official. It's very natural for a forum with regular posters united by a common interest to develop an unspoken set of rules and assumptions as to what the forum is about and what it stands for. And admittedly, this forum was created to facilitate road enthusiasts. But I don't think it is actually a 'road enthusiast forum', if that makes sense. I must say too, though, that there are quite a few new posters in the parent forum that seem perfectly at ease round these parts. Where bogus points are made by new posters though, these are rapidly exposed. [/stops thinking out loud]

veryangryman

Tremelo wrote: »

I'm with him and you on that - it should be signed at those places.

[thinking out loud]On a related point, I think I've noticed a weak trend in this and the parent forum for some new posters, who happen to espouse views that are at odds with the majority of the posters here, to be shouted down or crowded out, or at least to be made feel slightly unwelcome. This particular forum is not constitutionally pro-roads or pro-NRA; in fact constitutionally, I envisage it as neutral. Perhaps I should amend the charter just to make it official. [/stops thinking out loud]

I disagree Tremolo and im sure the regulars do too!!

Only messing. Yeah its like a bar full of regulars here sometimes. Then a yank walks in and orders "400 mililitres of Beer" or similar and gets alot of grunts from the regulars

*grunt*

Chris_5339762

New posters are always welcomed, but a lot of the recent ones have come in here with loud, entrenched opinions and just wont listen to the rest of us