Penneys/Primark investigated on BBC1 tonight.

sunnyside

Just posting this in case anyone's interested. I think it's about their clothes being made in sweat shops and other ethical issues. 10.35pm as far as I know. Could be interesting.

LolaDub

Would love to see that!!! If they are using child labour there is no way i will ever step foot in their stores again. Thanks for posting!

sunnyside

LolaDub wrote: »

Would love to see that!!! If they are using child labour there is no way i will ever step foot in their stores again. Thanks for posting!

It's not a new story though, Penneys ethics have always been questionable. Many other shops are rumoured to be doing the same thing but because Primark in the UK especially is the most high profile of the cheap retailers they get the worst of the bad press.

Should be interesting to see what's on the programme. Have a look at this for a preview of what they're on about.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/22/india.humanrights

Pikasso

With T-Shirts for €3 and €5 they can't be using €8 an hour labour, that's for sure.

Guy:Incognito

LolaDub wrote: »

Would love to see that!!! If they are using child labour there is no way i will ever step foot in their stores again. Thanks for posting!

I take it you shop in a very limited number of shops so.

The relevant groups have been whinging about penneys for cancelling their contracts and stopping dealings with the companies using the child labour. Apparently its doing the kids out of work :rolleyes: (Im serious btw, it was all over the news today)

Gillo

LolaDub wrote: »

Would love to see that!!! If they are using child labour there is no way i will ever step foot in their stores again. Thanks for posting!

Where do you plan to shop then??
I'm not saying that child labour is anyway acceptable, but for some reason the media has got their teeth into Primark, most other clothes stores sell clothes made from sweat shops, now imageine how much more profit designer brands make from sweat shops.

eth0_

At the end of the day, these people (even the children) in sweatshops are probably better off there. If they weren't working there, they'd be living on the streets. These children will NEVER go to school. They will NEVER have a decent life. Sweatshops aren't the issue here at all - human rights in India is the problem.

The Indian government don't give a sh*t about these people, they are low caste and therefore "disposable" people. The fact they don't have any sanitation systems in the poor areas where the sweatshops are found, leading them to throw their garbage and excrement in rivers, should give you a clue as to how these people are regarded by the rest of modern India.

If people stop shopping in Penney's etc, these people will end up in a WORSE situation.

craichoe

Personally i think Panorama are just looking for any old story these days. Nothing new at all.

ALL Suppliers of clothing have somewhere down the line that has ethical standards.

Panorama just picked one to have a go at.

eth0_

Agreed. However they did cover GAP's use of child labour, and they couldn't have done the investigation they did on lots of shops...

Says a lot that Primark wouldn't be interviewed, and that their response was to simply cancel contracts instead of trying to change things. They've actually left these children in a worse state than before!

I won't be shopping in Penney's again..but mostly because the clothes are dreadful quality and often really skanky looking. I don't remember the last time I saw something i'd actually wear, in a Penneys store.

craichoe

eth0_ wrote: »

Agreed. However they did cover GAP's use of child labour, and they couldn't have done the investigation they did on lots of shops...

Says a lot that Primark wouldn't be interviewed, and that their response was to simply cancel contracts instead of trying to change things. They've actually left these children in a worse state than before!

I won't be shopping in Penney's again..but mostly because the clothes are dreadful quality and often really skanky looking. I don't remember the last time I saw something i'd actually wear, in a Penneys store.

I only occasionally bought jocks and socks, bought a jacket one day when i was cold.

Its throwaway clothing !

However theres LOTS of smaller shops that have their own brand stuff, they import it from China and India via the UK for half nothing. Same rubbish as Primark. I know one owner of a Large store chain in the south and its pretty much common knowledge thats what happens.

Panorama look purely for the OMG Panorama is so Awesome factor.

Child labour happens, its a fact and it always has been that way.

India is a s*ithole, Bangaluru is a total dump, it stinks to high heaven, workers there are treated like sh*t (In the IT industry anyway). Its not surprising that people in the textle industry are worse off.

Note: Its called Bangaluru now, not Bangalore ... Panorama ..

Gillo

eth0_ wrote: »

I won't be shopping in Penney's again..but mostly because the clothes are dreadful quality and often really skanky looking. I don't remember the last time I saw something i'd actually wear, in a Penneys store.

So if the kids actually did a proper job...

ok, seriously Primark have a right not to comment, it would have been very easy for the BBC to twist whatever they said and make them look worse.

I've often felt that both panaroma and dispatches give a one sided view. I remember once watching an "expose" on a particular industry when the reporter attempted to interview the heads of certain companies they only time he did this was when they were at a trade show and about to go into a keynote address and weren't able to stop and answer the questions, this was turned around to make it look like the companies were refusing to speak at all.

eth0_

Gillo wrote: »

So if the kids actually did a proper job...

No no, the kids aren't designing it and specifying they use poor quality material!

I think Primark/Pennys are going to have to do some serious damage limitation today after revealing they simply cancelled contracts with those factories that use child labour.

LolaDub

I do not believe that in any circumstance that child labour is right. Children have a right to a childhood not to be exploited.

If i choose to vote with my feet and not shop in pennys that is what i'm entitled to.

penexpers

LolaDub wrote: »

I do not believe that in any circumstance that child labour is right. Children have a right to a childhood not to be exploited.

If i choose to vote with my feet and not shop in pennys that is what i'm entitled to.

Then you should stop shopping full stop. Child labour is rampant and I would say it's impossible to avoid items made via child labour entirely.

I don't think anyone is doubting that children have a right to a childhood, but at the end of the day they stop caring when it starts to affect the price of the goods that they are buying.

eth0_

LolaDub wrote: »

I do not believe that in any circumstance that child labour is right. Children have a right to a childhood not to be exploited.

If i choose to vote with my feet and not shop in pennys that is what i'm entitled to.

Lola, educate yourself please.
Read up about Indian culture. If you stop shopping in Penny's it won't make any difference. If thousands stopped shopping there it wouldn't make any difference either, some other retailer would engage the services of factories that use child labour.

If EVERYONE stopped shopping at stores that source clothes from factories which use child labour, the children will end up living on the streets with nothing to eat. The government don't care. If you are born into the 'wrong' caste, you will never go to a good school (if you get any education at all), you are barred from working in civil service jobs, barred from many universities.

Can you see now that this is not an issue that can be dealt with by being an ethical shopper? It is an issue with the culture of India, a country that bans the UN from areas which have sweatshops. Yes of course it's not nice to see a 9 year old slaving over a sewing machine, but if that's what they have to do to survive, why take away their means of earning money? There was no evidence that those children were being beaten or starved.

For a country that is becoming quite powerful, India is living in the dark ages in many respects.

LolaDub

There is no need to resort to personal jibes over my lack of 'education' as you put it.

I do not feel that child labour is right ever. You can push it under the carpet however you wish whether you ignore it because its cheap clothes or children would be on the streets, whatever makes it easier for you. Its not just pennys ethics as a store that are involved in the issue of child labour there are far many more issues here and its ever going to stop and give children their right to a childhood more has to be done than complain on a forum or complain to a store. The source needs to be investigated as well as the store. The issue needs to be supported by everyone actively for children to be given their childhood back.

eth0_

LolaDub wrote: »

There is no need to resort to personal jibes over my lack of 'education' as you put it.

What? I meant educate yourself on this issue. I don't know who you are or whether you have only a junior cert or a PhD!

LolaDub wrote: »

The source needs to be investigated as well as the store. The issue needs to be supported by everyone actively for children to be given their childhood back.

Of course. I agree with you. However, if Penney's stop using Indian factories, another retailer will step in to replace them. This is why it is something that needs to be dealt with by the Indian government and people. They have laws about child labour but don't implement them. Why is that? Because these children are low class citizens. The caste system is why these people are trapped in an endless cycle of poverty, not purely because you buy a few tops from Penny's.

LolaDub

I am not saying at all that this problem occurs because people shop in pennys, if i'm honest the only thing i ever buy in pennys is socks! I'm not a particular fan of the store. I spoke about pennys initially because that is what the thread was started on. I personally could not in good conscience shop in a store i am aware uses child labour and i realise that it happens through stores which i am not aware of. Unfortunately the issue is far more extensive than a few retailers. Not shopping in a particular establishment is really only a starter point but its something. I feel that the agencies who are supposed to be ensuring children don't end up in sweat shops should be far far more actively involved in the issue. Sadly its not something that can be fixed today or tomorrow or just by not shopping at pennys it takes a lot of work and a lot of time. But doing something is better than doing nothing.

bittihuduga

As far as I know, there are laws in India too against child labour. But it is impossible to maintain these laws due to the huge population.
As seen from the video yesterday, these kids did not work on main street factories. They worked hiding behind door. Some greedy man employ these kids for low wages. if somebody complains about these child labour with locations, I am sure the Indian police arrest the culprit. But again we need NGOs to take care of the kids from there. With just a few NGOs, again it is a problem. So the kids go back to other employer and the story continues.

Everybody know it is difficult to make a tshirt for less than 5 euros with proper infrastructure and employees. So the manufactures or sub contracter take a back route to save the money.

About the garbage, no toilets - every country have their own problem. With such a big population and sudden boom, they have lost control on so many things. As they say - rome was not built in a day - it will take time for the such a fastly developing country to settle down and fix the problems.

just my 1 cent observation from last nite

meglome

eth0_ wrote: »

Lola, educate yourself please.
Read up about Indian culture. If you stop shopping in Penny's it won't make any difference. If thousands stopped shopping there it wouldn't make any difference either, some other retailer would engage the services of factories that use child labour.

If EVERYONE stopped shopping at stores that source clothes from factories which use child labour, the children will end up living on the streets with nothing to eat. The government don't care. If you are born into the 'wrong' caste, you will never go to a good school (if you get any education at all), you are barred from working in civil service jobs, barred from many universities.

Can you see now that this is not an issue that can be dealt with by being an ethical shopper? It is an issue with the culture of India, a country that bans the UN from areas which have sweatshops. Yes of course it's not nice to see a 9 year old slaving over a sewing machine, but if that's what they have to do to survive, why take away their means of earning money? There was no evidence that those children were being beaten or starved.

For a country that is becoming quite powerful, India is living in the dark ages in many respects.

As someone who have been to India I have to agree. The system is utterly corrupt so the poor are screwed, the lower caste poor especially.

And no is getting arrested as long as they can pay their way out of it, or the odd fall guy to keep the west happy.

eth0_

Exactly...you can bribe your way out of almost anything in India!

LolaDub

eth0_ wrote: »

What? I meant educate yourself on this issue. I don't know who you are or whether you have only a junior cert or a PhD!

Sorry i thought you were calling me a dumbass!!!

eth0_

Nope not at all!

LolaDub

Aww hug and make up time!!!

foggy_lad

off topic but i remember a program a few months ago where people in india were employed by a farmer as rat catchers and they were paid only by being allowed to cook and eat the rats they caught! they were the lowest of the caste system and untill situations like this are sorted out by the governments in these countries like india nothing will be done about their child labour problems or slavery issues!

luckat

I don't think I'd shop in Penney's again after this.

The problem isn't that children are able to work to make some money. The problem is that children - and some of them orphan refugees - are working long days, at tiny pay, and can't attend school.

So by buying these very cheap clothes, you're robbing a child of its education and its future.

If it was possible to ensure that children who worked did so only part-time, and attended school as well, it would be a start.

But it would stick in my throat to buy things made by little ones who are being exploited.

I honestly don't think it's true that "everyone does it". M&S, for instance, were caught red-handed some years ago, and cleaned up their act since - they now carry Fair Trade labels on many of their clothes, and these labels aren't given without good inspection.

sunnyside

eth0_ wrote: »

At the end of the day, these people (even the children) in sweatshops are probably better off there. If they weren't working there, they'd be living on the streets. These children will NEVER go to school. They will NEVER have a decent life. Sweatshops aren't the issue here at all - human rights in India is the problem.

If people stop shopping in Penney's etc, these people will end up in a WORSE situation.

I agree with you. Can I ask if the people who are saying they will never shop in Penneys again have ever visited a country like India? It really is a cultural issue.

LolaDub wrote: »

If i choose to vote with my feet and not shop in pennys that is what i'm entitled to.

Of course it's your choice where you shop. But the guys who made the programme said not to bycott the shop because it would make the situation worse.

luckat wrote: »

I don't think I'd shop in Penney's again after this.

The problem isn't that children are able to work to make some money. The problem is that children - and some of them orphan refugees - are working long days, at tiny pay, and can't attend school.

So by buying these very cheap clothes, you're robbing a child of its education and its future.

.

They aren't being robbed of an education because the majority of children in India wouldn't be getting an education anyway even if they weren't making the clothes.

Sewing the clothes gives them something to do and they looked happy enough. Those children don't have trampolines and playstations to occupy their days. The money they get means they can eat every day.

I had expected the children to be working in the huge factories they showed. Thankfully they aren't, they seem to be working in their homes and on the streets which hopefully isn't as high pressure as work in the factories.

Sewing isn't physically difficult or damaging to their health. Children in similar cultures in other countries end up as child prostitutes. Sewing clothes isn't bad compared to that. As they grow up they'll continue to work in the clothing industry. I think Primark could help them a lot by sending them some toys with their orders.

LolaDub

sunnyside wrote: »

I agree with you. Can I ask if the people who are saying they will never shop in Penneys again have ever visited a country like India? It really is a cultural issue.



Of course it's your choice where you shop. But the guys who made the programme said not to bycott the shop because it would make the situation worse.




They aren't being robbed of an education because the majority of children in India wouldn't be getting an education anyway even if they weren't making the clothes.

Sewing the clothes gives them something to do and they looked happy enough. Those children don't have trampolines and playstations to occupy their days. The money they get means they can eat every day.

I had expected the children to be working in the huge factories they showed. Thankfully they aren't, they seem to be working in their homes and on the streets which hopefully isn't as high pressure as work in the factories.

Sewing isn't physically difficult or damaging to their health. Children in similar cultures in other countries end up as child prostitutes. Sewing clothes isn't bad compared to that. As they grow up they'll continue to work in the clothing industry. I think Primark could help them a lot by sending them some toys with their orders.

Yes i have and i've lived in a very similiar country. If i were buying products from pennys now it would make me physically ill i would never be able to use it. I'd prefer to give the 2 euro i spend on socks to a charity or organisation supportive of this issue.

Guy:Incognito

LolaDub wrote: »

If i were buying products from pennys now it would make me physically ill i would never be able to use it..

I bet you €10 you wont actually vomit if you do.

LolaDub wrote: »

I'd prefer to give the 2 euro i spend on socks to a charity or organisation supportive of this issue.

But then what do you do about your sock shortage?

luckat

I thought all the Irish jobs were going to India *because of the high level of education there*? Surely that doesn't mean that children are routinely deprived of education so they can clothe the suarach Irish?

Guy:Incognito

luckat wrote: »

I thought all the Irish jobs were going to India *because of the high level of education there*? Surely that doesn't mean that children are routinely deprived of education so they can clothe the suarach Irish?

The population is somewhere around 1.1b. Plenty of people for a multi class society.