Looking for advice on building a permanent shelter attached to the house

kingaaa

I have a 10x10 decking area at the gable end of my kitchen extension that I have covered in with a gazebo at the moment,But the Irish weather is playing havoc with the canopy and I have a pain in my face taking the canopy off every time the rain gets heavy or the win picks up. So I've decided to build a permanent fixed shelter. I was planning on bolting an upside down "L" steel bracket over the kitchen window the full with of the extension, and sinking either 2 bug wooden posts or 2 smaller steel hollow square posts into the ground on the outside of the rail on the edge of the decking - about 7 to 8 feet apart with either a steel or wooden brace across the top the same lenght as the bracket on the wall (approx 11 feet). I was then going to bolt 6x2 timbers from the bracket to the cross member brace at the top of the posts.I was then going to put tounge and groove across the timbers, marine ply on top of that, water-proof membrane on top of the ply, and finish off the felt tiles. I need advice on the following:

What size and guage should the steel bracket be?

What size should the Posts be?

How much should I sink them and should I use Concrete?

What part of the post should the brace be fixed to, the top or the face?

What pitch should I aim for or is it relevant?

ART6

kingaaa wrote: »

I have a 10x10 decking area at the gable end of my kitchen extension that I have covered in with a gazebo at the moment,But the Irish weather is playing havoc with the canopy and I have a pain in my face taking the canopy off every time the rain gets heavy or the win picks up. So I've decided to build a permanent fixed shelter. I was planning on bolting an upside down "L" steel bracket over the kitchen window the full with of the extension, and sinking either 2 bug wooden posts or 2 smaller steel hollow square posts into the ground on the outside of the rail on the edge of the decking - about 7 to 8 feet apart with either a steel or wooden brace across the top the same lenght as the bracket on the wall (approx 11 feet). I was then going to bolt 6x2 timbers from the bracket to the cross member brace at the top of the posts.I was then going to put tounge and groove across the timbers, marine ply on top of that, water-proof membrane on top of the ply, and finish off the felt tiles. I need advice on the following:

What size and guage should the steel bracket be?

What size should the Posts be?

How much should I sink them and should I use Concrete?

What part of the post should the brace be fixed to, the top or the face?

What pitch should I aim for or is it relevant?

This is probably too late to be of any help, but I hadn't noticed your thread before.

First thought is you are making a very expensive job for yourself. To start with, why do you want to roof with tongue and groove and then marine ply? One or the other would be quite sufficient. Then, I wouldn't personally use a steel angle for the wall fixing since once the job is completed you won't be able to get at the upper surfaces of it, and rust will become a big problem. I would use a treated timber batten, something like 4 x 2 and anchor bolt it to the wall. The other problem with steel angle is that its faces are square to each other, so the inclined roof beams could not be bolted flat onto it.

Then the roof slope. Anything above 3 degrees will be enough, and I would start from how high you want the front to be and then measure off the angle from there to see where to bolt the wall beam. To get the roof angle, you could plane the upper face of the wall beam to the roof angle, so that the beams fit square onto it. You could then fix them down using long coach screws (but drill clearance holes in the roof beams and tapping holes in the wall beam to prevent splitting).

Once you have covered the roof with a membrane, you will need to put a flashing band in the angle where the roof meets the house wall, otherwise you'll have water running down inside. The best flashing is lead strip, available from builders suppliers. You will need to cut a groove in the house wall just above your new roof, and cement the flashing into it, then flod the flashing down onto the new roof. You don't need to nail it to the roof -- it won't go anywhere.

Given the roof span, I would personally use 4 x 2 treated timber beams unless you intend to walk on the roof a lot. Put the beams at about 18 inches pitch and they will be adequately strong.

For the front corner posts I would use 4 inch fence posts inserted into Metposts -- these, if you havent come across them, are long steel spikes with a 4 inch open topped box on top. They are designed for fencing and they have the advantage that they keep the post out of the ground. Readily available from builders suppliers. Make sure you buy a driver with them -- its a block of hardwood or plastic that fits into the Metpost top and allows you to use a big hammer to drive them

Across the front I would again use a 4 x 2 wood beam, or a 6 x 2 only if you intend to put a gutter along the front. Again, use coach screws to put the whole lot together, but for fixing the roof beams to the front cross beam I would simply cut the roof beams off at whatever angle you have chosen for the roof slope, and use the coach screws to fix them to the face of the cross beam rather than the top.

To finish off the side edges of the roof I would fix a board thet is about 2 inches wider than the roof thickness including the beams, and leave it 2 inches proud of the roof top. Then when you put the membrane on, lap it over those boardsand fix it to their faces. That way you keep rain water from spilling off the sides and don't need to put guttering there.


Hope this is of some use:)

kingaaa

ART6 wrote: »

This is probably too late to be of any help, but I hadn't noticed your thread before.

First thought is you are making a very expensive job for yourself. To start with, why do you want to roof with tongue and groove and then marine ply? One or the other would be quite sufficient. Then, I wouldn't personally use a steel angle for the wall fixing since once the job is completed you won't be able to get at the upper surfaces of it, and rust will become a big problem. I would use a treated timber batten, something like 4 x 2 and anchor bolt it to the wall. The other problem with steel angle is that its faces are square to each other, so the inclined roof beams could not be bolted flat onto it.

Then the roof slope. Anything above 3 degrees will be enough, and I would start from how high you want the front to be and then measure off the angle from there to see where to bolt the wall beam. To get the roof angle, you could plane the upper face of the wall beam to the roof angle, so that the beams fit square onto it. You could then fix them down using long coach screws (but drill clearance holes in the roof beams and tapping holes in the wall beam to prevent splitting).

Once you have covered the roof with a membrane, you will need to put a flashing band in the angle where the roof meets the house wall, otherwise you'll have water running down inside. The best flashing is lead strip, available from builders suppliers. You will need to cut a groove in the house wall just above your new roof, and cement the flashing into it, then flod the flashing down onto the new roof. You don't need to nail it to the roof -- it won't go anywhere.

Given the roof span, I would personally use 4 x 2 treated timber beams unless you intend to walk on the roof a lot. Put the beams at about 18 inches pitch and they will be adequately strong.

For the front corner posts I would use 4 inch fence posts inserted into Metposts -- these, if you havent come across them, are long steel spikes with a 4 inch open topped box on top. They are designed for fencing and they have the advantage that they keep the post out of the ground. Readily available from builders suppliers. Make sure you buy a driver with them -- its a block of hardwood or plastic that fits into the Metpost top and allows you to use a big hammer to drive them

Across the front I would again use a 4 x 2 wood beam, or a 6 x 2 only if you intend to put a gutter along the front. Again, use coach screws to put the whole lot together, but for fixing the roof beams to the front cross beam I would simply cut the roof beams off at whatever angle you have chosen for the roof slope, and use the coach screws to fix them to the face of the cross beam rather than the top.

To finish off the side edges of the roof I would fix a board thet is about 2 inches wider than the roof thickness including the beams, and leave it 2 inches proud of the roof top. Then when you put the membrane on, lap it over those boardsand fix it to their faces. That way you keep rain water from spilling off the sides and don't need to put guttering there.


Hope this is of some use:)[/QUOTE

Hi Art, thanks for chiming in. The reason I was using steel was the gable end of the extension is pebble dashed, I was just going to chisel out the shape of the piece of steel back to the bare block. I deally I would have liked to use wooden supprts for the low end,preferably 6x6, but the spot where they are going is actually slabbed out at the moment and I thought it would have been handier to cement 4x4 box steel lenghts a couple of feet into the ground. These two supports ar also only going to be about 8 feet apart and the roof will be 10-11 feet wide, so I was thinking a bolt on pice the width of the roof would be handier.I dont mind a bit of jigsaw and mitre work to ger the roof support lengs to sit flush onto the supprots. I was actually thinking 6x3 lengts and the tounge and groove is purely for appearance, did'nt really want bare marine ply.I could have t&g'd after it was up but I was thinking it was easier to lay it on top - less cuts Have a look at this link, it's more or less what I want (without the fridges and counter!)

http://picasaweb.google.com/OutdoorLivingDesigns/OutdoorStructures/photo#5042303084215891378

ART6

Hi Art, thanks for chiming in. The reason I was using steel was the gable end of the extension is pebble dashed, I was just going to chisel out the shape of the piece of steel back to the bare block. I deally I would have liked to use wooden supprts for the low end,preferably 6x6, but the spot where they are going is actually slabbed out at the moment and I thought it would have been handier to cement 4x4 box steel lenghts a couple of feet into the ground. These two supports ar also only going to be about 8 feet apart and the roof will be 10-11 feet wide, so I was thinking a bolt on pice the width of the roof would be handier.I dont mind a bit of jigsaw and mitre work to ger the roof support lengs to sit flush onto the supprots. I was actually thinking 6x3 lengts and the tounge and groove is purely for appearance, did'nt really want bare marine ply.I could have t&g'd after it was up but I was thinking it was easier to lay it on top - less cuts Have a look at this link, it's more or less what I want (without the fridges and counter!)

http://picasaweb.google.com/OutdoorLivingDesigns/OutdoorStructures/photo#5042303084215891378[/quote]


OK, I'm getting a better idea of what you're wanting. But 4 inch steel columns? I assume you mean structural hollow section? That is immensely strong stuff and way over what you need.

If the area is paved, one answer would be to drill into the paving slabs where the front columns are to go - something like a 20 mm hole. Then, in the wooden corner columns, insert a coach screw with about 50 mm projecting. Get a couple of Hilti epoxy resin capsules from a local builder's suppliers and drop them into the hole. When you drop the columns their coach screws will break the capsules and the epoxy resin will fix them to the slabs very permanently indeed.

For the roof, I assumed you were concerned with appearance, which is why I said "one or the other". If you use T&G then you don't need marine ply.

You say the gable end wall is pebble dashed, and you were planning to cut that back to the blocks. Fine, but then I would still use a wooden wall fixing. I certainly wouldn't use steel unless I had gone to the expense of galvanising. In fact, what you could do is to prepare a wooden wall member, drill it and the wall, put it in place with a gap against the wall, then press mortar into the gap, finally tightening up the anchor bolts to press the mortar into the pebble dash. That way you don't need to cut away the pebble dash. Remember that I suggested you would need a flashing over the roof/wall joint, but that only needs a slot in the pebble dash, not removing a section of it.

I'm not sure if this helps, but feel free to PM me if I can be of any assistance. Quite happy to give you a drawing if that would clarify things.

kingaaa

ART6 wrote: »

Hi Art, thanks for chiming in. The reason I was using steel was the gable end of the extension is pebble dashed, I was just going to chisel out the shape of the piece of steel back to the bare block. I deally I would have liked to use wooden supprts for the low end,preferably 6x6, but the spot where they are going is actually slabbed out at the moment and I thought it would have been handier to cement 4x4 box steel lenghts a couple of feet into the ground. These two supports ar also only going to be about 8 feet apart and the roof will be 10-11 feet wide, so I was thinking a bolt on pice the width of the roof would be handier.I dont mind a bit of jigsaw and mitre work to ger the roof support lengs to sit flush onto the supprots. I was actually thinking 6x3 lengts and the tounge and groove is purely for appearance, did'nt really want bare marine ply.I could have t&g'd after it was up but I was thinking it was easier to lay it on top - less cuts Have a look at this link, it's more or less what I want (without the fridges and counter!)

http://picasaweb.google.com/OutdoorLivingDesigns/OutdoorStructures/photo#5042303084215891378

OK, I'm getting a better idea of what you're wanting. But 4 inch steel columns? I assume you mean structural hollow section? That is immensely strong stuff and way over what you need.

If the area is paved, one answer would be to drill into the paving slabs where the front columns are to go - something like a 20 mm hole. Then, in the wooden corner columns, insert a coach screw with about 50 mm projecting. Get a couple of Hilti epoxy resin capsules from a local builder's suppliers and drop them into the hole. When you drop the columns their coach screws will break the capsules and the epoxy resin will fix them to the slabs very permanently indeed.

For the roof, I assumed you were concerned with appearance, which is why I said "one or the other". If you use T&G then you don't need marine ply.

You say the gable end wall is pebble dashed, and you were planning to cut that back to the blocks. Fine, but then I would still use a wooden wall fixing. I certainly wouldn't use steel unless I had gone to the expense of galvanising. In fact, what you could do is to prepare a wooden wall member, drill it and the wall, put it in place with a gap against the wall, then press mortar into the gap, finally tightening up the anchor bolts to press the mortar into the pebble dash. That way you don't need to cut away the pebble dash. Remember that I suggested you would need a flashing over the roof/wall joint, but that only needs a slot in the pebble dash, not removing a section of it.

I'm not sure if this helps, but feel free to PM me if I can be of any assistance. Quite happy to give you a drawing if that would clarify things.[/QUOTE]

Art, yeah I meant to say 4x4 hollow steel posts.My main concern is that this structure is solid in high winds, lord knows we get enough gusts to have me worried.A drawing but be great if you could find the time, I obviously want to keep it as simple as possible and the cost down, I'll be doing all the work myself.

ART6

OK Kingaaa. I've looked at the web site you indicated, and I assume that the construction you want is that listed as "Covered outdoor room" since that's the one that has a T&G ceiling. That's why you spoke of a marine ply top and a T&G underside?

Give me a day or so and I'll PM you some suggested drawings.

kingaaa

Thats the one Art, it has the support colums buit into a counter-type surface that houses a fridge and barbeque. Obviously mine will be on a smaller scale, and I'm hoping to install some kind of rail system on three sides for some retractable heavy canvas-type curtains for the evening time.

kingaaa

Nearly finished the project now, thanks to a great set of drawings from Art.this is my second time working with wood (the first being the table and benches in the photos) , and without Arts help it would have been impossible.Once again, Cheers.

ART6

Looking good. Well done. One final suggestion if you hadn't already intended that -- dark wood stain and matt black paint on the brackets to hide them? Then it will look every bit as good as the unit you had a catalogue photo of.

Best regards.

kingaaa

ART6 wrote: »

Looking good. Well done. One final suggestion if you hadn't already intended that -- dark wood stain and matt black paint on the brackets to hide them? Then it will look every bit as good as the unit you had a catalogue photo of.

Best regards.

I'm going to stain it the same colour as the table and benches Art, it's a Sikkens wood stain in teak.I agree with you on painting the brackets, I was actually going to hold off to see if I could source bigger brackets than the ones I have on the uprights supporting the cross-member.I take it you noticed I did'nt make braces up for the cross-member from the 6x6? While I'm happy I went with the 6x6 it was a nightmare to cut, so I thought mitre cuts with my limited tools would be a big risk.Having said that, I think the 6x6 cross-member should be enough to hold the weight. BTW, the steel rod with the epoxy resin was a top idea and made the job so much neater.

ART6

The 6 x 6 will be much more than enough to hold the weight, so no worries. Bear in mind that the average bungalow roof with heavy tiles is held up by sections smaller than that. You have a good solid structure there and I reckon you could make a living building the things for others:D

kingaaa

ART6 wrote: »

The 6 x 6 will be much more than enough to hold the weight, so no worries. Bear in mind that the average bungalow roof with heavy tiles is held up by sections smaller than that. You have a good solid structure there and I reckon you could make a living building the things for others:D

Art, your making me blush!!

Dilbert75

Nice job there folks - you have me thinking now....

kingaaa

Dilbert75 wrote: »

Nice job there folks - you have me thinking now....

Thanks Dilbert, I have to say I'm delighted with it.Its made all the difference with the weather, we had a few friends over on Sunday and got the barbie fired up.I also mounted a cantilever LCD mount to the wall so the football was on all day.I ordered some custom-made mosquito net curtains that will keep the cold out in the evening and even stop the rain if needed, they should be here next week.

ircoha

IMO a super job was done by Art and Kingaaa.

One suggestion, you can hang the washing out there as well, with the LCD and a crate of beer u can watch it dry:)

kingaaa

ircoha wrote: »

IMO a super job was done by Art and Kingaaa.

One suggestion, you can hang the washing out there as well, with the LCD and a crate of beer u can watch it dry:)

Nice one ircoha, another excuse to drink beer and watch footie!!;)