Benoit: 1 Year On

Mr.Nice Guy

Fozzy wrote: »

I don't really understand how some people are able to completely separate Benoit the wrestler and Benoit the person. They're the same to me.

+1

I'm quite surprised so many people ARE able to make a distinction.

rovert

Fozzy wrote: »

Pain and Passion is about Stampede Wrestling, the promotion that the Harts ran. It was written a few years ago. I haven't read it but I've heard good things about it

There was a new edition of the book out last touching on Benoit and the new generation of Harts in WWE. The first half of Ring of Hell is almost completely taken from Pain & Passion.

Taken on its own Pain and Passion is straggeringly great chronical of the Hart's from Stu's wrestling career, time as promoter, everyone who wrestled for him, the careers and lifes they lead up until the modern day(Owen, Bret, Bulldog, Dynamite, Benoit on down.) Nothing is left out with every Hart family occurance written about in detail, which is no easy feat. Just look at all the quotes about it:
http://www.amazon.com/Pain-Passion-History-Stampede-Wrestling/dp/1550227874

Its easy to make a difference to me. As i outlined earlier, The Benoit i knew was a character in a wrestling pomotion. I never knew the real benoit.


All he did was wrestle. How can that be anywhere close to letting you not be able to tell the real person apart?

Just because someone at a shop serves you all the time, doesn't mean you know them. Yes, you're familiar with them doing their job in front of you, but when you leave that shop, or Benoit leaves your TV, you know nothing about them...


After reading that excerpt, i still wouldn't spend anything on that book.


*edit*


Also, Fozzy, the rule that you must use proper english is ridiculous. Deaf people dont use proper English. Young people tend to not use proper english. People have trouble using proper english a lot of the time. Its not very fair to make it a rule that you must use full; and correct english. I could fully understand what that guy said.

Fozzy

Deleted User wrote: »

Just because someone at a shop serves you all the time, doesn't mean you know them. Yes, you're familiar with them doing their job in front of you, but when you leave that shop, or Benout leaves your TV, you know nothing about them...

This is my point, if that person who serves you at the shop kills their kid you wouldn't separate the shop worker from the murderer, would you? It's one and the same to me

Fozzy

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, Fozzy, the rule that you must use proper english is ridiculous. Deaf people dont use proper English. Young people tend to not use proper english. People have trouble using proper english a lot of the time. Its not very fair to make it a rule that you must use full; and correct english. I could fully understand what that guy said.

That's a rule that's all across Boards. Most people who type using text speak are perfectly able of typing properly and it'll do them more good than harm for a rule like that to be in place

rovert

Fozzy wrote: »

This is my point, if that person who serves you at the shop kills their kid you wouldn't separate the shop worker from the murderer, would you? It's one and the same to me

Exactly, Hitler liked his dog etc

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, Fozzy, the rule that you must use proper english is ridiculous. Deaf people dont use proper English. Young people tend to not use proper english. People have trouble using proper english a lot of the time. Its not very fair to make it a rule that you must use full; and correct english. I could fully understand what that guy said.

Oh dear

shinzon

I havent thought about benoit much in the last year, he murdered both his son and his wife and took the cowards way out by hanging himself, the research on his brain tissue revelaed that he had the brain of an 80 year old alzheimers patient, plus the pages in his diary revealed a very troubled man indeed, well never truly know why he snapped or what happened that awful awful couple of days last year.

As regards watching him now a year later, truth be told I can, I dont think anyone can ever forget what he did, WWE has wiped him completely off the face of the earth, but even they are allowing some mention of him nowadays, Ric Flairs speech at the HOF for example

I think all of us knew Chris Benoit the wrestler, but literally no one knew Chris Benoit the man

shin

rovert

shinzon wrote: »

As regards watching him now a year later, truth be told I can, I dont think anyone can ever forget what he did, WWE has wiped him completely off the face of the earth, but even they are allowing some mention of him nowadays, Ric Flairs speech at the HOF for example

Not true as the mention is removed from the DVD for the HOF and Flairs speech was certionly NOT vetted as it went well over time.

ShawnRaven

shinzon wrote: »

I think all of us knew Chris Benoit the wrestler, but literally no one knew Chris Benoit the man

Ding ding ding, we have a winner here!
VR!

rovert

shinzon wrote: »

I think all of us knew Chris Benoit the wrestler, but literally no one knew Chris Benoit the man

validreasoning! wrote: »

Ding ding ding, we have a winner here!
VR!

Not totally true and it is a cliche

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

Not totally true and it is a cliche

But the €64,000 question, is how does a cliche become a cliche?
Cliche or no cliche, it's fact.
VR!

shinzon

rovert wrote: »

Not true as the mention is removed from the DVD for the HOF and Flairs speech was certionly NOT vetted as it went well over time.

Sigh i dont understand why you come on here and basically nitpick everything, but my point still stands, Ric Flair mentioned chris benoit at the hall of fame, everybody heard the bloody thing, vetted or not my point still stands, edited out or not it was still mentioned

Sheesh your hard work you really are rovert but meh

Shin

rovert

validreasoning! wrote: »

But the €64,000 question, is how does a cliche become a cliche?
Cliche or no cliche, it's fact.
VR!

Explain in Benoit's case

shinzon wrote: »

Sigh i dont understand why you come on here and basically nitpick everything, but my point still stands

It wasnt nitpicking. Sorry that my posting the facts of the situation got in the way of your point.

shinzon wrote: »

Ric Flair mentioned chris benoit at the hall of fame, everybody heard the bloody thing, vetted or not my point still stands, edited out or not it was still mentioned

NO IT DOESNT your point was:

shinzon wrote: »

but even they are allowing some mention of him nowadays, Ric Flairs speech at the HOF for example

They didnt ALLOW it as Flair DIDNT ask for permission.

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

Explain in Benoit's case

Simple, i didn't know the man, you didn't know the man, i'm pretty f*cking sure everyone else who posts here didn't know him.

And the fact that you needed an explanation from that simple statement that i agreed with, well, i'll throw in the towel right there.

You say it's not totally true, i've explained my reasons why (which most likely won't be up to your lofty standards, but at this stage i'm f*cked if i care), now, i'm asking you to explain your reasons why it's not true.

VR!

shinzon

rovert wrote: »

Explain in Benoit's case




It wasnt nitpicking. Sorry that my posting the facts of the situation got in the way of your point.




NO IT DOESNT your point was:



They didnt ALLOW it as Flair DIDNT ask for permission.

your nitpicking, anyway this is dragging ths thread off topic

shin

rovert

shinzon wrote: »

your nitpicking, anyway this is dragging ths thread off topic

shin

Im not nitpicking it was the primary example you posted to back your point. Which isnt actually true which brings your whole point into question.

This is over the mention of Benoits name at HOF and is not off topic.

rovert

validreasoning! wrote: »

Simple, i didn't know the man, you didn't know the man, i'm pretty f*cking sure everyone else who posts here didn't know him.

And the fact that you needed an explanation from that simple statement that i agreed with, well, i'll throw in the towel right there.

You say it's not totally true, i've explained my reasons why (which most likely won't be up to your lofty standards, but at this stage i'm f*cked if i care), now, i'm asking you to explain your reasons why it's not true.

VR!

Shinzon's post wasnt strictly referring to this board only so you kind of misread it:

shinzon wrote: »

I think all of us knew Chris Benoit the wrestler, but literally no one knew Chris Benoit the man

Your "explanation" doesnt take into account Benoit's family life and documented facts about it.

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

Shinzon's post wasnt strictly referring to this board only so you kind of misread it

No, but mine was.

Your "explanation" doesnt take into account Benoit's family life and documented facts about it.

Which has nothing to do with his in ring performances whatsoever. Which is why i have no problem separating the two.

VR!

rovert

validreasoning! wrote: »

No, but mine was.



Which has nothing to do with his in ring performances whatsoever. Which is why i have no problem separating the two.

VR!

Way to twist things and make it more confusing, reread the last page or so.

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

Way to twist things and make it more confusing, reread the last page or so.

Sorry if i confused you, maybe go back to the F4W board, it might be a little more "simple" for you.

The thread was if people could separate the Benoit the wrestler, and Benoit the person. Shin made a statement which summed up my sentiments exactly.

You disagreed with it, and then failed to provide any backup (as per usual).
There you go, in black in white, beautifully illustrated.

VR!

rovert

validreasoning! wrote: »

Sorry if i confused you, maybe go back to the F4W board, it might be a little more "simple" for you.!

VR Im sick and tired of you bringing F4W up, the discussion on there is more complex than here as product knowledge is higher (it has two respected newsletters), sorry but it is pretty true.

validreasoning! wrote: »

The thread was if people could separate the Benoit the wrestler, and Benoit the person. Shin made a statement which summed up my sentiments exactly.

But Shins point is a generalisation as it doesnt take into account the details of Benoits family life which I did state already in this thread. I already mentioned I read both Ring of Hell and Pain and Passion so it is safe to say Ive gained some insight. Not to mention following the story indepedently.

validreasoning! wrote: »

You disagreed with it, and then failed to provide any backup (as per usual).

I did offer backup as Ive outlined above, I dont see any from you.

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

VR Im sick and tired of you bringing F4W up, the discussion on there is more complex than here as product knowledge is higher (it has two respected newsletters), sorry but it is pretty true.

Then stay there and stop annoying us then! I guess i touched a nerve

But Shins point is a generalisation as it doesnt take into account the details of Benoits family life which I did state already in this thread. I already mentioned I read both Ring of Hell and Pain and Passion so it is safe to say Ive gained some insight. Not to mention following the story indepedently.

But this topic, if i recall correctly is about peoples own opinion of the situation, not the alleged facts you're trying to ram down everyone's throats (once again)

I did offer backup as Ive outlined above, I dont see any from you.

But didn't bother posting any of it. No point being all talk. Mine was merely opinion, i never claimed otherwise.

VR!

Fozzy

validreasoning, please stop the personal abuse

rovert wasn't "nitpicking", WWE did not intentionally allow Flair to mention Benoit. I don't think that bit aired on tv, did it?

And there are plenty of stories that have gone around in the last year and before about how Benoit used to bully the younger wrestlers, so we've got some idea about the sort of man he was outside the ring

rovert

validreasoning! wrote: »

Then stay there and stop annoying us then! I guess i touched a nerve

No you didnt, but it is getting boring and that site doesnt define me.

validreasoning! wrote: »

But this topic, if i recall correctly is about peoples own opinion of the situation, not the alleged facts you're trying to ram down everyone's throats (once again)

Ok VR phone records, court documents and statements from family and friends are alleged facts in your eyes. Im not ramming anything down peoples throats I dealing in information which is until it is debunked or refuted is fact.

validreasoning! wrote: »

But didn't bother posting any of it. No point being all talk. Mine was merely opinion, i never claimed otherwise.

Then it is pretty hypocritcal of you to criticise me for not backing up my own opinion (which in fact I the vast majority of the time.)

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

No you didnt, but it is getting boring and that site doesnt define me.

Will say no more on that, i'm on watch apparently.

Ok VR phone records, court documents and statements from family and friends are alleged facts in your eyes. Im not ramming anything down peoples throats I dealing in information which is until it is debunked or refuted is fact.

You've missed my point, so it seems.

Then it is pretty hypocritcal of you to criticise me for not backing up my own opinion (which in fact I the vast majority of the time.)

I did, i said i was able to separate the wrestler from the person because 1) i enjoyed his work and 2) he didn't do anything to my family! The outcome sucked, but as i've said before, radio stations don't stop playing Phil Spector produced and written songs, despite the fact that he's a murderer.

VR!

rovert

Fozzy wrote: »

rovert wasn't "nitpicking", WWE did not intentionally allow Flair to mention Benoit. I don't think that bit aired on tv, did it?

No it didnt.

rovert

validreasoning! wrote: »

You've missed my point, so it seems.

Your point has implication of dont let facts get in the way of your opinion:

validreasoning! wrote: »

But this topic, if i recall correctly is about peoples own opinion of the situation, not the alleged facts you're trying to ram down everyone's throats (once again).

How do you form opinions, VR?

validreasoning! wrote: »

I did, i said i was able to separate the wrestler from the person because 1) i enjoyed his work and 2) he didn't do anything to my family! The outcome sucked, but as i've said before, radio stations don't stop playing Phil Spector produced and written songs, despite the fact that he's a murderer.

We were discussing Shins statement here and the validity of it relative to Benoit.

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

Your point has implication of dont let facts get in the way of your opinion:

I don't! And the facts remain that he had some awesome matches during the course of his career. Am i gonna disregard those just because he snapped and murdered his family then suicided? F*ck no!

How do you form opinions, VR?

Same way as you, i just don't piss off as many people.

We were discussing Shins statement here.

The topic, before Shins statement. Would you care to go back to page one?

VR!

Fozzy

validreasoning! wrote: »

The outcome sucked, but as i've said before, radio stations don't stop playing Phil Spector produced and written songs, despite the fact that he's a murderer.

I think there's a difference there. Most people could hear a song that Phil Spector worked on and not know that he had anything to do with it. I'm sure radio stations would be the same. But if you're looking at Benoit's work, you're looking at him. People are going to be a lot more aware of that

FX Meister

Won't anybody stop and think of Benoit himself. It wasn't his fault really.

Fozzy

validreasoning! wrote: »

The topic, before Shins statement. Would you care to go back to page one?

rovert was questioning you about shinzon's post where he said that no one knew about Benoit the man. Despite there being court evidence of him not being that nice a guy. So we've got some idea of what man he was

ShawnRaven

Fozzy wrote: »

I think there's a difference there. Most people could hear a song that Phil Spector worked on and not know that he had anything to do with it. I'm sure radio stations would be the same. But if you're looking at Benoit's work, you're looking at him. People are going to be a lot more aware of that

Are you kidding me? George Harrison, The Ramones, Ike and Tina Turner and John Lennon have had some of their very influencial material worked on by Spector, any hardcore music fan will tell you that. Three decades of it. So when he got sent down for murder, it was a fairly big deal as a result.

VR!

ShawnRaven

Fozzy wrote: »

rovert was questioning you about shinzon's post where he said that no one knew about Benoit the man. Despite there being court evidence of him not being that nice a guy. So we've got some idea of what man he was

I think it's unfair to discard an entire lifetime due to events in later years. Obviously something wasn't right in the head there in later years, and that's been said by many people alright.

But do you judge an artist by his art, or by the guy who paints it?
VR!

rovert

validreasoning! wrote: »

I don't! And the facts remain that he had some awesome matches during the course of his career. Am i gonna disregard those just because he snapped and murdered his family then suicided? F*ck no!.

Seriously, you dont what? VR again I thought we are discussing just Shins statement still that no one knew Benoit the man.

validreasoning! wrote: »

Same way as you, i just don't piss off as many people.

Using alleged facts :rolleyes:

validreasoning! wrote: »

The topic, before Shins statement. Would you care to go back to page one?

As that what we've spend a long time discussing.

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

Seriously, you dont what? VR again I thought we are discussing just Shins statement still that no one knew Benoit the man.

Seriously, it annoys me that you can't seem to remember what you posted five minutes earlier. I don't let facts get in the way of my opinion.

Using alleged facts :rolleyes:

Well you didn't provide any sources, just that you read a couple of books (that nobody else seems to have done).

As that what we've spend a long time discussing.

I can't and won't argue there.
VR!

Fozzy

validreasoning! wrote: »

Are you kidding me? George Harrison, The Ramones, Ike and Tina Turner and John Lennon have had some of their very influencial material worked on by Spector, any hardcore music fan will tell you that. Three decades of it. So when he got sent down for murder, it was a fairly big deal as a result.

"Hardcore music fan" being the important part. I couldn't tell you all of Spector's songs. If I played a John Lennon song to my dad he wouldn't know if Spector worked on it or not. But when you see Benoit wrestling it's clear that it's him. You don't have to be a hardcore wrestling fan to know what he looks like, or to hear the commentators or read the graphic on the screen. It's a lot more obvious that you're watching the work of a murderer

Also, WWE have a much younger fanbase than Phil Spector songs. If Spector had written children's songs then I don't think that they'd be played as much

rovert

Fozzy wrote: »

rovert was questioning you about shinzon's post where he said that no one knew about Benoit the man. Despite there being court evidence of him not being that nice a guy. So we've got some idea of what man he was

validreasoning! wrote: »

I think it's unfair to discard an entire lifetime due to events in later years. Obviously something wasn't right in the head there in later years, and that's been said by many people alright.

But do you judge an artist by his art, or by the guy who paints it?
VR!

Fozzy: Thank you for picking up (actually remembering really) what Im talking about.

VR: Im not talking about what you are, I did point that out earlier and you insulted me of it when I asked you to reread the thread. Call it cross wires but still you went off a semi-tangent (post #69).

ShawnRaven

Fozzy wrote: »

"Hardcore music fan" being the important part. I couldn't tell you all of Spector's songs. If I played a John Lennon song to my dad he wouldn't know if Spector worked on it or not. But when you see Benoit wrestling it's clear that it's him. You don't have to be a hardcore wrestling fan to know what he looks like, or to hear the commentators or read the graphic on the screen. It's a lot more obvious that you're watching the work of a murderer

When you see Benoit wrestling, you see a match, not a murderer. At least I don't anyway.

Also, WWE have a much younger fanbase than Phil Spector songs. If Spector had written children's songs then I don't think that they'd be played as much

I'm not so sure about that, John Lennon's "Imagine" still gets played a lot and covered to this day. No prizes for guessing who produced it.

VR!

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

VR: Im not talking about what you are, I did point that out earlier and you insulted me of it when I asked you to reread the thread. Call it cross wires but still you went off a semi-tangent.

Apparently not, but i wouldn't say i went off on a tangent. I discussed what the topic was about. And did a pretty good job of it in my honest opinion.

VR!

rovert

validreasoning! wrote: »

Seriously, it annoys me that you can't seem to remember what you posted five minutes earlier. I don't let facts get in the way of my opinion.!

*See my previous post*, Ive no idea where youve gotten that opinion. Fozzy seems to have followed my posts replying to you. Also you dont back your post here, so this falls into the personal insult category.

validreasoning! wrote: »

Well you didn't provide any sources, just that you read a couple of books

Think about this line, VR.

validreasoning! wrote: »

(that nobody else seems to have done).

Forgive me for doing my homework, miss

rovert

validreasoning! wrote: »

Apparently not, but i wouldn't say i went off on a tangent. I discussed what the topic was about. And did a pretty good job of it in my honest opinion.

In fairness to you I said semi tangent. The fact of the matter a good few people knew Benoit the man. Do they know what he could be able capable of? Maybe but the people maybe talking bull**** after the fact, who knows? BUT did anyone think he would go though with everything he did? No way at all.

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

*See my previous post*, Ive no idea where youve gotten that opinion. Fozzy seems to have followed my posts replying to you. Also you dont back your post here, so this falls into the personal insult category.

It doesn't fall into personal insult category! Unless you're very easily offended. Next thing you'll be saying "ban?"! I don't see what the problem is in scrolling up if you don't know what i'm answering and then replying instead of saying "you don't what?"

Forgive me for doing my homework, miss

Oooh, now what comes under personal insult category now?
VR!

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

The fact of the matter a good few people knew Benoit the man. Do they know what he could be able capable of? Maybe but the people maybe talking bull**** after the fact, who knows? BUT did anyone think he would go though with everything he did? No way at all.

Exactly my sentiments, however i don't let what he did blind my opinions of his professional accomplishments, as far as this forum is concerned, it comes across as very 50/50 as time has healed some fans wounds, whilst others still curse the Benoit name to this day.

VR!

Minto

Look rovert, VR can't help going off on tangents. Its part of who he is! I remember one time we were talking about the Royal Rumble (2008) and we ended up discussing women's tag team wrestling in the late '80s!

ShawnRaven

Minto wrote: »

Look rovert, VR can't help going off on tangents. Its part of who he is! I remember one time we were talking about the Royal Rumble (2008) and we ended up discussing women's tag team wrestling in the late '80s!

That wasn't a tangent, i referred to a match that was on the first Royal Rumble, and part of the conversation was about womens divisions, it was a comparison, not a tangent.

VR!

shinzon

i was just about to go off an a rant and rave that would probably have gotten me banned, but then i realise it aint worth it, just got to accept rovert will jump down my throat everytime i post something now since the IWW thread

Ah well NVM



Shin

rovert

validreasoning! wrote: »

It doesn't fall into personal insult category! Unless you're very easily offended.

You offer no back up, it is insulting me for the sake of insulting me.

validreasoning! wrote: »

Next thing you'll be saying "ban?"!

As I stated before I didnt report you and others a number of times when I had grounds to before I started reporting people when Fozzy told me to it if anyone breaks the rules in the charter.

validreasoning! wrote: »

I don't see what the problem is in scrolling up if you don't know what i'm answering and then replying instead of saying "you don't what?"

Your answer (post#79) was a double negitive and I asked you to clarify. So VR follow you own advice.

Minto

validreasoning! wrote: »

That wasn't a tangent, i referred to a match that was on the first Royal Rumble, and part of the conversation was about womens divisions, it was a comparison, not a tangent.

VR!

Yea, thats where it started but I remember something about a match at a house show in dublin or something as well as a match on a televised show! Hence, a tangent!

rovert

validreasoning! wrote: »

That wasn't a tangent, i referred to a match that was on the first Royal Rumble, and part of the conversation was about womens divisions, it was a comparison, not a tangent.

VR!

Fozzy seemed to think differently:

Fozzy wrote: »

rovert was questioning you about shinzon's post where he said that no one knew about Benoit the man. Despite there being court evidence of him not being that nice a guy. So we've got some idea of what man he was

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

Fozzy seemed to think differently:

Now you are grasping at straws, Minto was refering to a completely different conversation.

Funny really, we've come full circle rovert, and now it's you standing in the middle.

VR!