Benoit: 1 Year On

ShawnRaven

Minto wrote: »

Yea, thats where it started but I remember something about a match at a house show in dublin or something as well as a match on a televised show! Hence, a tangent!

I'm pretty sure that was a different conversation. I never saw any womens matches at a house show in Dublin (that i remember anyway!)

VR!

rovert

shinzon wrote: »

i was just about to go off an a rant and rave that would probably have gotten me banned, but then i realise it aint worth it, just got to accept rovert will jump down my throat everytime i post something now since the IWW thread

Ah well NVM



Shin

What happened in the IWW thread?

You wrote

shinzon wrote: »

I think all of us knew Chris Benoit the wrestler, but literally no one knew Chris Benoit the man

As Ive posted already the second part of the statement isnt true going by phone records, court documents etc

Minto

validreasoning! wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that was a different conversation. I never saw any womens matches at a house show in Dublin (that i remember anyway!)

VR!

Meh, your prob right. You usually are! Either that or I just give up to easy, lol!

rovert

validreasoning! wrote: »

Now you are grasping at straws, Minto was refering to a completely different conversation.

Funny really, we've come full circle rovert, and now it's you standing in the middle.

VR!

Sorry I misquoted you and I apologise for. But Fozzy did follow what I was talking about with you. Some how you got confused eventhought I remained consistant in what I was saying.

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

As Ive posted already the second part of the statement isnt true going by phone records, court documents etc

And as i've posted already. You can't use phone records and court documents that span the last five to six years of his life to judge his entire lifetime.

Although God loves a trier, so good luck to those who think they can.
VR!

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

Sorry I misquoted you and I apologise for. But Fozzy did follow what I was talking about with you.

No problems, sh*t happens.
I did follow what you were talking about, and as i'll say again, phone records and court documents that were dug up about the last years of one persons life is not enough to judge an entire lifetime over. And i'll stand by that.

VR!

rovert

validreasoning! wrote: »

phone records and court documents that were dug up about the last years of one persons life is not enough to judge an entire lifetime over.

Where did I say that now? Again going back to the second part of Shins statement "the man" is taken to mean an understanding the totality of a person for his lifespan. The Benoit of 2007 is the Benoit of 1987 became so to speak.

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

The Benoit of 2007 is the Benoit of 1987 became so to speak.

Brain damage has a strange effect on people in different ways. Sure he became the Benoit of 2007, but he wasn't always that way. I know i don't intentionally go out of my way to marry a psycho or a murderer.

I can't speak for anyone else though.

VR!

rovert

validreasoning! wrote: »

Brain damage has a strange effect on people in different ways. Sure he became the Benoit of 2007, but he wasn't always that way. I know i don't intentionally go out of my way to marry a psycho or a murderer.

Well Nancy did attempt to divorce him late in Benoit's life. Again to say no one knew Benoit isnt strictly true.

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

Well Nancy did attempt to divorce him late in Benoit's life. Again to say no one knew Benoit isnt strictly true.

In later life yes, but she did marry him years earlier though.
I think you know what i'm getting at here.

VR!

Fozzy

The thing with the brain damage is that the group who did the testing, the Sports Legacy Institute, haven't made their findings public. So they could be talking crap. Usually when studies like that are done they're released to the public or at least to other doctors. I'd like to know why they haven't released them

rovert

validreasoning! wrote: »

In later life yes, but she did marry him years earlier though.
I think you know what i'm getting at here.

Totally, VR.

It is likely Nancy fell in love with a more even tempered Benoit in 1996?. Once again it feeds into my belief Nancy did know (as far as another person can) Benoit "the man" in Shins words.

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

Totally, VR.

It is likely Nancy fell in love with a more even tempered Benoit in 1996?. Once again it feeds into my belief Nancy did know (as far as another person can) Benoit "the man" in Shins words.

Exactly, except for the second part. I don't believe shinzon meant for it to be taken that extreme. If absolutely nobody knew the man, that would make him somewhat of a loner, which i don't believe he was. Loners generally don't start families, in fact they go out of their way to make sure they don't.

Unless he was a loner that was never alone
VR!

rovert

validreasoning! wrote: »

Exactly, except for the second part. I don't believe shinzon meant for it to be taken that extreme.

Thats why I called it a cliche that didnt take into account the Benoit's family situation.

Handsome Bob

I bought the Ladder Match DVD a few days ago and I only just checked out Benoit in the 1st MITB. The more he put it on the line, the more the crowd popped for him. He reopened a cut above his eye by doing a crazy headbutt off the very top of the ladder for the sake of appeasing the crowd . What I'm saying is that the man ****ed up his body beyond repair, all in the name of entertainment, and it ultimately cultivated in a tragic day.

gimmick

I bought Ring Of Hell last month. Started it last night and am finished with it before I am 10 pages in. Absolute dross, tabloid sensationalism at its best.

It will do well in my fire once its winter again.

Rjd2

One story about why Benoit was depressed was his move to ECW befire he died. Benoit always struck me as a company man as he jobbed to tons of people and I am pretty sure he would have enough clout not to job to those people if he did not want to. Would that move to ECW where he would have being top dog really depress him?

Fozzy

Rjd2 wrote: »

One story about why Benoit was depressed was his move to ECW befire he died. Benoit always struck me as a company man as he jobbed to tons of people and I am pretty sure he would have enough clout not to job to those people if he did not want to. Would that move to ECW where he would have being top dog really depress him?

I'd say it was a combination of things. That might have played a part, but I'd say other things had a bigger effect

Fozzy

gimmick wrote: »

I bought Ring Of Hell last month. Started it last night and am finished with it before I am 10 pages in. Absolute dross, tabloid sensationalism at its best.

It will do well in my fire once its winter again.

I had another look at it, something I found funny was when I was reading on one page about how some wrestlers, like Kevin Nash, were lying scumbags who are just in it for themselves and their money, and they'd say anything to get themselves ahead. And then a few pages later he's using Nash quotes as "evidence" for one of his points

The author's a bigger mark than Benoit :pac:

Vince135792003

Yeah I read the book about a month ago. It was a real struggle to finish it and I didn't like it at all.

rovert

Fozzy wrote: »

I had another look at it, something I found funny was when I was reading on one page about how some wrestlers, like Kevin Nash, were lying scumbags who are just in it for themselves and their money, and they'd say anything to get themselves ahead. And then a few pages later he's using Nash quotes as "evidence" for one of his points

The author's a bigger mark than Benoit :pac:

Dave Melter totally burried part of the book in an article centered around his own first hand knowledge of Brian Pillman (Pillman's widow referrred to Meltzer as being Brian's best friend.) Basicially Randazzo mixed and match stories which occured over a number of years and to different people.

Rjd2 wrote: »

One story about why Benoit was depressed was his move to ECW befire he died. Benoit always struck me as a company man as he jobbed to tons of people and I am pretty sure he would have enough clout not to job to those people if he did not want to. Would that move to ECW where he would have being top dog really depress him?

It played a very smalll part. Premediation started before that happened. He was already extremely unbalanced at that point. At that time Benoit believed he should be a Shawn Michaels/HHH level Superstar.

fatal

Im almost finished the book but it's been very hard to read.The author contradicts himself quite a bit and his choice of language doesn't exactly make it a pleasant read

ibFoxer

Deleted User wrote: »

Personally, I believe Benoit was an amazing wrestler and easily one of the best. Lets not kid ourselves, he was never the most entertaining thing on TV, but when he was just wrestling (which is essentially all he did anyway) he was great.


I have no problem whatsoever differentiating between Benoit the wrestler and Benoit the man.

The only difficulty comes because he used his real name in the ring. If it were Triple H it'd be easier. Cos then you could seperate them (eg: Triple H was awesome, but Paul sucked, etc.).


As for Benoit the person... I never hung around with him. We were never close friends. I never helped him design his tights, we never sat down and had a conversation together... Yep... I, like everyone here, did not know Benoit. Therefore, I don't really care what he did in his spare time.

Has it directly affected me? No.

Has it affected the product i enjoy? No.

The only difference between now and last year, is that there was an extra man on the roster. Do I miss his matches? Sure. Who doesn't?


Fact of the matter is when Benoit was on my TV he was wrestling. I like wrestling, so it is in my interest to watch him wrestle and see him do his stuff in the ring. When he left my TV, he pretty much left my mind, and made space for Booker T or Kane or whomever was going to come out next. I didn't know Benoit personally, so i really don't care what he did.

+ 1

From my own point of view i have no problem sitting down and watching a Benoit match, the same way i have no problem watching the product of a cocaine using egomaniac, or the matches of a man who spent 9 & half years in jail for armed robbery & kidapping, because im comfortable seperating character from creator.

I do however feel that what happened with Benoit does highlight the murkier side of "sports entertainment" that im sure some would prefer remained behind closed doors.

Anyway, thats my 0.02 euro, for what its worth

Vince135792003

The Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame is running a re-call vote on whether Benoit should remain or be removed from the Hall of Fame.

What does everyone think the outcome will be and what way would you vote if you had the chance?

I think he'll probably be kept in. Meltzer more a less said it I think a couple of weeks ago.

And if I had a vote, I think I'd vote to remove him.

ibFoxer

I would vote to keep him. I lost interest in wrestling in the late mid to late 90's and i credit Benoit, Guerrero & Kurt Angle with spiking my interest again.

Mr.Nice Guy

I think he should be removed as well. I would be of the view that his immense contribution to wrestling was tarnished and overshadowed by the manner in which he destroyed the lives of his loved ones, and that he brought pro wrestling arguably its worst ever moment.

I view Hall of Fames as a way to honour people and in my book Chris Benoit does not deserve any honours.

Sharpshooter

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I think he should be removed as well. I would be of the view that his immense contribution to wrestling was tarnished and overshadowed by the manner in which he destroyed the lives of his loved ones, and that he brought pro wrestling arguably its worst ever moment.

I view Hall of Fames as a way to honour people and in my book Chris Benoit does not deserve any honours.

For us to judge Cris over what happened we would
have to know what led up to the reason for him doing it,
We dont,
I reserve Judgement on a "Wrestler" whose private life
we were not included in.
It is well known in these days that people snap and Kill
those that mean most to them.
You see it in the papers all the time.
I for one would like to know what drove him to do what he did, and when I get that answer , then and only then
will I pass Judgement.

Minto

Stupid question, I know but do I get to vote for the WO Hall of Fame since I'm a subscriber to F4W. I think Bryan and Dave clarified the situation a while ago, but I'm not sure.

If I do get to vote, I'm kicking his ass straight out of there, the no good murderous bastard.

rovert

foxerv1 wrote: »

+ 1From my own point of view i have no problem sitting down and watching a Benoit match, the same way i have no problem watching the product of a cocaine using egomaniac, or the matches of a man who spent 9 & half years in jail for armed robbery & kidapping, because im comfortable seperating character from creator.

He killed his child with his own wrestling move, killing both with his own bare hands. Sorry but there is a huge difference in what examples you posted and Chris Benoit actually did. Without being too sensationalistic there is a major argument the could be made that Wrestling in many ways lead to these deaths. It aint as easy as separating character from creator this time around.

Minto wrote: »

Stupid question, I know but do I get to vote for the WO Hall of Fame since I'm a subscriber to F4W. I think Bryan and Dave clarified the situation a while ago, but I'm not sure.

No you don’t, only peers (those in the industry) are allowed to vote.

Vince135792003 wrote: »

The Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame is running a re-call vote on whether Benoit should remain or be removed from the Hall of Fame.

What does everyone think the outcome will be and what way would you vote if you had the chance?

I think he'll probably be kept in. Meltzer more a less said it I think a couple of weeks ago.

And if I had a vote, I think I'd vote to remove him.

Going by the rules Meltzer laid out if OJ Simpson was voted out of the NFL Hall of Fame then I see no reason why I would keep him in. But I don’t think he will be voted out as again it is voted by those in the industry and Wrestling and wrestlers are far more scummy and less conservative in their outlook than other in other sports in America. Not to mention the wrestler’s ingrained need to “protect the business.” If a primary criteria for was how nice someone was as a person was the HOF would be a lot smaller.

foxerv1 wrote: »

I would vote to keep him. I lost interest in wrestling in the late mid to late 90's and i credit Benoit, Guerrero & Kurt Angle with spiking my interest again.

That isnt a reason to keep him in or out of the Observer HOF.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I think he should be removed as well. I would be of the view that his immense contribution to wrestling was tarnished and overshadowed by the manner in which he destroyed the lives of his loved ones, and that he brought pro wrestling arguably its worst ever moment.

I view Hall of Fames as a way to honour people and in my book Chris Benoit does not deserve any honours.

But Jimmy Snuka does:rolleyes:

sharpshooterH wrote: »

For us to judge Cris over what happened we would
have to know what led up to the reason for him doing it,
We dont,
I reserve Judgement on a "Wrestler" whose private life
we were not included in.

Not true read the thread, don’t make blanket statements you can’t back up.

sharpshooterH wrote: »

It is well known in these days that people snap and Kill
those that mean most to them.
You see it in the papers all the time.
I for one would like to know what drove him to do what he did, and when I get that answer , then and only then
will I pass Judgement.

So he may have been justified in what he did, sure. :eek:

Vince135792003

Minto wrote: »

Stupid question, I know but do I get to vote for the WO Hall of Fame since I'm a subscriber to F4W..
.

You'll get to vote in the year end awards but not the Hall of Fame.

grames_bond

should be removed imo, disgusting human being regardless of circumstances and should be scratched from the wwe/wwf forever!

Bubs101

Just out of interest, did Benoit get voted in posthumously or while he was still an active wrestler. If it's the latter I'd keep him in but make it clear that the vote was taken before the incident. I don't really think that just ignoring his wrestling legacy is the right thing to do

rovert

Bubs101 wrote: »

Just out of interest, did Benoit get voted in posthumously or while he was still an active wrestler. If it's the latter I'd keep him in but make it clear that the vote was taken before the incident. I don't really think that just ignoring his wrestling legacy is the right thing to do

Of course before (2003)

Minto

Bubs101 wrote: »

Just out of interest, did Benoit get voted in posthumously or while he was still an active wrestler. If it's the latter I'd keep him in but make it clear that the vote was taken before the incident. I don't really think that just ignoring his wrestling legacy is the right thing to do

No, the rotten bastard doesn't deserve his place at all. His wrestling legacy went out the window the second he applied the crippler crossface to his son!

Bubs101

Minto wrote: »

No, the rotten bastard doesn't deserve his place at all. His wrestling legacy went out the window the second he applied the crippler crossface to his son!

Did he actually kill him with a crossface or is that just speculation. It seems a little far fetched to be honest.

Although I kind of share that view if you just ignore his contibution to wrestling he'll gain more noteriety and a cult status whereas if you acknowledge his previous achievments but leave it as something that's just not talked about or highlighted much he'll fade into the background

rovert

Bubs101 wrote: »

Did he actually kill him with a crossface or is that just speculation. It seems a little far fetched to be honest.

It was reported as a version of the move, I grown muscluar man could apply the move we know to a small undersized child.

Minto wrote: »

No, the rotten bastard doesn't deserve his place at all. His wrestling legacy went out the window the second he applied the crippler crossface to his son!

If find it hard to disagree with you in any major way.

Vince135792003

Bubs101 wrote: »

Did he actually kill him with a crossface or is that just speculation. It seems a little far fetched to be honest.

The marks on his son's body suggest that he did use some form of it.

Minto

Bubs101 wrote: »

Did he actually kill him with a crossface or is that just speculation. It seems a little far fetched to be honest.

I'm not 100% sure tbh, I remember reading something about it at the time, but its prob just speculation. AFAIK, the son died of asphyxiation, so it is almost plausible (I spell a Mythbusters special, lol). I don't really believe the story myself, but its a slightly amusing part of the Benoit story.

rovert

Minto wrote: »

I'm not 100% sure tbh, I remember reading something about it at the time, but its prob just speculation. AFAIK, the son died of asphyxiation, so it is almost plausible (I spell a Mythbusters special, lol). I don't really believe the story myself, but its a slightly amusing part of the Benoit story.

No it isnt

Vince135792003

Here's a report from the time:

Police say Benoit used his WWE finishing move to kill son


WWE wrestler Chris Benoit is said to have murdered his seven-year-old son with his WWE finishing move according to police in Georgia.

Police are speculating that Benoit, 40, used a version of the Crippler Crossface hold on his son the morning after strangling his wife Nancy, 43, to death. Later that day Benoit committed suicide, reports The Sun.

The Crippler Crossface was a move Benoit performed in almost all his wrestling matches.

It was the bruising on the young boy that threw police initially, according to the Sun's report.

The Sun claims an officer reviewed tapes of Benoit and put the moves together with the marks on the child. The Sun reports that "the marks on Daniel's body matched the application of a version the Crossface."

The Sun reports that District Attorney Scott Ballard said: "A choke hold was used to strangle the boy, rather than hands, because there's no bruising consistent with strangulation by hands."

According to the Sun, wrestling reporter Dave Meltzer claimed: "There was bruising consistent with the Crippler Crossface on one arm and Daniel's face. There were no bruises on his neck

"The police don't believe, because of the size difference, that the hold was applied exactly as it would be in a pro wrestling match.

"Benoit would have been in more of a kneeling position, sort of straddling Daniel while using one leg to pull back on his arm."

The Sun reports that Benoit was using a combination of several drugs and steroids.

The full results of a toxicology (blood) test is still several weeks away.

Doctor DooM

It is not hard to believe that a man so skilled in NOT hurting people would be
excellent at knowing how to hurt people. I would guess he applied some choke to the child but it's just too good a story not to turn that into a cross face.

grames_bond

you use a wrestling move to kill a so called "loved one" you have no right to be in the hall of fame, simple as!

G-Money

I used to have the Benoit Hard Knocks DVD but I got rid of it after what happened last June. To be honest, I haven't seen much wrestling over the last year so my exposure to Benoit footage has been minimal. However I did watch the 4 horsemen dvd which I recently bought and I found myself wishing they had edited Benoit out of it.

For me, anytime I see him I think of what he did. It makes me not want to watch any of his matches. Part of this is that I feel like if I even slightly enjoy a match of his, or an interview, it's almost like I'm saying what he did was ok. I know that might sound stupid, but that's how it feels for me.

I was never his biggest fan, but I always thought he was a good wrestler and was tough.

Now though, I just don't want to watch anything he's in.

Mr.Nice Guy

sharpshooterH wrote: »

For us to judge Cris over what happened we would
have to know what led up to the reason for him doing it,
We dont,
I reserve Judgement on a "Wrestler" whose private life
we were not included in.
It is well known in these days that people snap and Kill
those that mean most to them.
You see it in the papers all the time.
I for one would like to know what drove him to do what he did, and when I get that answer , then and only then
will I pass Judgement.

You're reserving judgement on a guy who murdered his wife and young son? Extraordinary.

We don't need to know his reasons for doing it. While they would give us greater understanding of his mindset, it wouldn't diminish the disgrace attached with such a disgusting crime.

I looked up to him as a wrestler and admired him but what he did in the final hours of his life were the cold-hearted actions of a scumbag.

Fozzy

rovert wrote: »

Going by the rules Meltzer laid out if OJ Simpson was voted out of the NFL Hall of Fame then I see no reason why I would keep him in.

Just want to say that OJ wasn't voted out of that hall of fame as he was found not guilty, so they couldn't have a justfied reballot. But the feeling was that if they did, he would have been voted out

Initially the police reported that Benoit just choked his child. Later on Meltzer said that he had spoken with the police and they believed that he had used the crossface on his son, but they didn't want to release that information because it sounded too sensational

rovert

Fozzy wrote: »

Just want to say that OJ wasn't voted out of that hall of fame as he was found not guilty, so they couldn't have a justfied reballot. But the feeling was that if they did, he would have been voted out

Initially the police reported that Benoit just choked his child. Later on Meltzer said that he had spoken with the police and they believed that he had used the crossface on his son, but they didn't want to release that information because it sounded too sensational

Actually you are totally right on both points, hectic day in work today:eek:.

BarneyisRight

I know this is an old thread but it is still very important.I think that Benoit was incredibly hard working,an outstanding professional,loved the business.All of the above,except in the last eyar/year and a half of his life.Benoit had grown stale,he was stuck in the I.C/U.S Title spot and knew he would not be elevated any further.It was obvious the man was on steroids and if you read Chris Irvine (Jericho) book,there is an incident that shows the true Benoit.I have great respect for the man,as a professional but as a human being the man was cold and no better than a coward.

Handsome Bob

BarneyisRight wrote: »

I know this is an old thread but it is still very important.I think that Benoit was incredibly hard working,an outstanding professional,loved the business.All of the above,except in the last eyar/year and a half of his life.Benoit had grown stale,he was stuck in the I.C/U.S Title spot and knew he would not be elevated any further.It was obvious the man was on steroids and if you read Chris Irvine (Jericho) book,there is an incident that shows the true Benoit.I have great respect for the man,as a professional but as a human being the man was cold and no better than a coward.

What was the incident?

rovert

BarneyisRight wrote: »

I know this is an old thread but it is still very important.I think that Benoit was incredibly hard working,an outstanding professional,loved the business.All of the above,except in the last eyar/year and a half of his life.Benoit had grown stale,he was stuck in the I.C/U.S Title spot and knew he would not be elevated any further.It was obvious the man was on steroids and if you read Chris Irvine (Jericho) book,there is an incident that shows the true Benoit.I have great respect for the man,as a professional but as a human being the man was cold and no better than a coward.

But that was taken out of the book, wasnt it. It has been a year since I read it but Im quite sure it didnt make the cut.

Fozzy

Is it the thing about Benoit spiking Jericho's drink with GHB?