2008 WWE draft RAW SPOILERS

Handsome Bob · 31-05-2008 1:49pm

It was a very creative idea, an idea that geatly embellished the Undertaker's character. The reason there was a poor collection of wrestlers was because the idea was to take 'average' wrestlers and turn them into someone to be feared. Dennis Knight was turned into the Undertaker's slave, Mabel was a fierce competitor now under control of one of the most powerful superstars around and the same goes for the Acolytes. The terrorising of the McMahon family and Stone Cold's crashing of the black wedding were awesome moments. But then it all went to **** when it became the Corporate Ministry.

rovert · 31-05-2008 2:34pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

It was a very creative idea

Russo took a lot of it from B movies he watched when he ran a movie store. The storyline was very much of its time. In rings standard have improved since 1999. Check out the quality of wrestlers in the 1999 Royal Rumble and this years show.

Handsome Bob · 31-05-2008 2:51pm

rovert wrote: »

Russo took a lot of it from B movies he watched when he ran a movie store. The storyline was very much of its time. In rings standard have improved since 1999. Check out the quality of wrestlers in the 1999 Royal Rumble and this years show.

Oh undoubtedly the in-ring work has generally improved. I'm saying storyline wise it was much more interesting back then. Unfortunately though the creative success of the Attitude Era has lead to the quality of writing descending into soap opera standards.

rovert · 31-05-2008 3:10pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Oh undoubtedly the in-ring work has generally improved. I'm saying storyline wise it was much more interesting back then. Unfortunately though the creative success of the Attitude Era has lead to the quality of writing descending into soap opera standards.

Well you were younger then, you've read more books and seen more films since then. People your age then said that exact same thing you are now.

Handsome Bob · 31-05-2008 3:31pm

rovert wrote: »

Well you were younger then, you've read more books and seen more films since then. People your age then said that exact same thing you are now.

What? Are you saying that people my age back then dismissed the attitude era as soap opera stuff compared to the stuff of old? Before the attitude era everyone was white as white or black as black in terms of being face or heel, there was absolutely zero realism to any of the gimmicks and were cartoonish to put it politely. It was cheese personified.

rovert · 31-05-2008 4:12pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

What? Are you saying that people my age back then dismissed the attitude era as soap opera stuff compared to the stuff of old?

Yes and people did the same in the 1980s and early 1990's too.

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Before the attitude era everyone was white as white or black as black in terms of being face or heel, there was absolutely zero realism to any of the gimmicks and were cartoonish to put it politely. It was cheese personified.

Saying "everyone was" is a broad statement. How much wrestling have you watched outside of WWE?

Handsome Bob · 31-05-2008 4:34pm

In truth not much. Afterall we didn't get WCW over here. But I know that the wcw audience reacted badly to Hogan's cartoonish character when he went down south.

rovert · 31-05-2008 4:47pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

In truth not much. Afterall we didn't get WCW over here. .

We did on Satellite and on ITV for a short while. But we certainly didn’t get it the way we got WWE. Well I have tracked down old NWA, WCCW, AWA and Mid South. Their promotions we aimed at older beer drinking and cussing males. While the characters and storyline had more depth and were grittier. When WWF started to run in these promotions area the old NWA, WCCW and Mid South HATED that their WRESTLING was being taken over by the McMahon circus.

LZ5by5 wrote: »

But I know that the wcw audience reacted badly to Hogan's cartoonish character when he went down south.

Initally they didnt but it got stale fast. What didnt help was his oppenets were the very definition of cartoon characters. But at that time Lex Luger played charcter who was a heel in single matches and a babyface when with Sting in a tag team. So it wasnt all black and white.

ShawnRaven · 31-05-2008 7:49pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

What? Are you saying that people my age back then dismissed the attitude era as soap opera stuff compared to the stuff of old? Before the attitude era everyone was white as white or black as black in terms of being face or heel, there was absolutely zero realism to any of the gimmicks and were cartoonish to put it politely. It was cheese personified.

Zero realism? Are you for real! The mega powers feud over two friends fighting over a woman and jealousy! Sh*t that happens in real life. The DiBiase/Hercules feud was over Herc being sold to DiBiase by Heenan, slavery. Granted that wasn't realistic as such, but it did resemble corporate life at the time with companies being bought over left right and centre and the employees being less than happy about it. Most had to put up with it to feed their families, others revolted.

Even into the 90s, the Bret/Owen brother to brother jealousy feud.

Sorry man, but don't tell me that the Attitude era brought out realism in wrestling, it was always there, and it was there pre-WWE mid 80s too. The NWA were doing it for years, involving the likes of Ric Flair, Magnum TA and Dusty Rhodes.

VR!

Handsome Bob · 31-05-2008 8:02pm

validreasoning! wrote: »

Zero realism? Are you for real! The mega powers feud over two friends fighting over a woman and jealousy! Sh*t that happens in real life. The DiBiase/Hercules feud was over Herc being sold to DiBiase by Heenan, slavery. Granted that wasn't realistic as such, but it did resemble corporate life at the time with companies being bought over left right and centre and the employees being less than happy about it. Most had to put up with it to feed their families, others revolted.

Even into the 90s, the Bret/Owen brother to brother jealousy feud.

Sorry man, but don't tell me that the Attitude era brought out realism in wrestling, it was always there, and it was there pre-WWE mid 80s too. The NWA were doing it for years, involving the likes of Ric Flair, Magnum TA and Dusty Rhodes.

VR!

I was talking about WWE only VR. A lot of the characters of the 1980's and early 90's were just bad cliches and stereotypes. Really cartoonish. I was wrong to say there was zero realism but it certainly wasn't relatable to.

rovert · 31-05-2008 8:14pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I was talking about WWE only VR. A lot of the characters of the 1980's and early 90's were just bad cliches and stereotypes. Really cartoonish. I was wrong to say there was zero realism but it certainly wasn't relatable to.

Myself and VR are the Mega Powers in this this thread. While on the subject of Savage what about the abusive relationship he had with Elizabeth when he was a heel? Thats highly relatable.

flahavaj · 31-05-2008 8:27pm

rovert wrote: »

Myself and VR are the Mega Powers in this this thread. While on the subject of Savage what about the abusive relationship he had with Elizabeth when he was a heel? Thats highly relatable.

What does that make Lz5by5? The woman?;)

rovert · 31-05-2008 8:30pm

flahavaj wrote: »

What does that make Lz5by5?

Akeem?

flahavaj · 31-05-2008 8:31pm

I don't know which I'd rather be.

rovert · 31-05-2008 8:40pm

flahavaj wrote: »

I don't know which I'd rather be.

Pervert

ShawnRaven · 31-05-2008 8:46pm

Oh good f*ck, now we've really strayed!
I'm staying well out of this one folks.

VR!

ShawnRaven · 31-05-2008 8:47pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I was talking about WWE only VR. A lot of the characters of the 1980's and early 90's were just bad cliches and stereotypes. Really cartoonish. I was wrong to say there was zero realism but it certainly wasn't relatable to.

The characters weren't always relatable to, but the storylines definitely were (as i'd already pointed out). We may not have been able to relate to them as 10-12 year olds at the time it happened. But older fans would have been able to.

VR!

Handsome Bob · 31-05-2008 9:03pm

OK back on topic!

What do you guys think could be the shock of the draft? I mean last year Raw getting Lashley AND Kennedy was pretty big. Then there was the year where they swapped champions with Batista and John Cena (though we could see Batista going to SD from a mile away once Cena went to Raw).

Any thoughts?

ShawnRaven · 31-05-2008 9:13pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

OK back on topic!

What do you guys think could be the shock of the draft? I mean last year Raw getting Lashley AND Kennedy was pretty big. Then there was the year where they swapped champions with Batista and John Cena (though we could see Batista going to SD from a mile away once Cena went to Raw).

Any thoughts?

The year that Cena and Batista swapped brands (2005) served no real purpose only to stick the WWE championship on the flagship show, and have their secondary belt on their secondary show, Smackdown. A new set of feuds would have developed regardless as JBL floundered around midcard and eventually went into Semi retirement for the remainder of that year.

VR!

Bubs101 · 31-05-2008 9:34pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

OK back on topic!

What do you guys think could be the shock of the draft? I mean last year Raw getting Lashley AND Kennedy was pretty big. Then there was the year where they swapped champions with Batista and John Cena (though we could see Batista going to SD from a mile away once Cena went to Raw).

Any thoughts?

Probably a biggish name going to ECW. Just like Benoit of last year was the big shock

Handsome Bob · 31-05-2008 9:59pm

Someome said a few pages back that they thought Rey could go to ECW. Now that would be crazy, in the sense that he plays a big role in drawing ratings on SD and because it would really give ECW a boost.

I'd say Chris Jericho to ecw is a strong possibility.

Brolly · 31-05-2008 10:13pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Someome said a few pages back that they thought Rey could go to ECW. Now that would be crazy, in the sense that he plays a big role in drawing ratings on SD and because it would really give ECW a boost.

I'd say Chris Jericho to ecw is a strong possibility.

Batista to ECW? Could happen - I'd say he will be moved, its just a question of whether Raw or ECW gets him!

What about Jeff Hardy to SD? Before the 60 day suspension, that would never even have been a consideration with the push he was getting, but its always a possibility now.

Handsome Bob · 31-05-2008 10:29pm

brolly wrote: »

Batista to ECW? Could happen - I'd say he will be moved, its just a question of whether Raw or ECW gets him!

What about Jeff Hardy to SD? Before the 60 day suspension, that would never even have been a consideration with the push he was getting, but its always a possibility now.

Batista will definitely be moved, but he has aired his grievances about being on the 'B' Show, he will balk at the idea of going to the 'C' show.

I think it is a toss up between Jeff and Ken about going to sd, both of them can't fully flourish on the same show. One will be given precedence over the other.

Brolly · 31-05-2008 10:45pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Batista will definitely be moved, but he has aired his grievances about being on the 'B' Show, he will balk at the idea of going to the 'C' show.

I think it is a toss up between Jeff and Ken about going to sd, both of them can't fully flourish on the same show. One will be given precedence over the other.

I take your point on Batista on the 'C' show!!! He might have not choice though and if he is, he will make appearances on Raw with both shows being filmed on the same night from now on.

I'd say Jeff being moved is more likely than Kennedy - Kennedy is just getting going again on Raw and once the whole Orton/HHH thing is over, there is a possibility of putting him into the mix for the title (a few months down the road!)

Handsome Bob · 31-05-2008 10:53pm

Agreed.

I'm a big Kennedy fan and I am happy with how he has regained some momentum. I just concerned that if Batista and MVP do move to Raw, they might jump ahead of him into the main event. I think SD is the better place for him to continue his push. Edge v Kennedy at WM25 for the WHC would be amazing.

Brolly · 31-05-2008 11:00pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Agreed.

I'm a big Kennedy fan and I am happy with how he has regained some momentum. I just concerned that if Batista and MVP do move to Raw, they might jump ahead of him into the main event. I think SD is the better place for him to continue his push. Edge v Kennedy at WM25 for the WHC would be amazing.

Yeah, I think Kennedy has big potential and they need to exploit it now rather then later. He would be a great WHC!!! Edge v Kennedy would be a fantastic match at Mania too.

What about a Jeff and Matt rivalry if he moves to SD? Not sure I would be that keen on it, but I wouldn't put it past the WWE to do it!

I'd say CM Punk will stay put as long as he has the money in the bank - no point moving him - he could decide to go any of the titles!

I wonder if its too early for Koslov to be moved to ECW and go against Kane for the title? Perhaps they want to continue his winning streak on Smackdown for another while.

Handsome Bob · 31-05-2008 11:24pm

brolly wrote: »

Yeah, I think Kennedy has big potential and they need to exploit it now rather then later. He would be a great WHC!!! Edge v Kennedy would be a fantastic match at Mania too.

What about a Jeff and Matt rivalry if he moves to SD? Not sure I would be that keen on it, but I wouldn't put it past the WWE to do it!

I'd say CM Punk will stay put as long as he has the money in the bank - no point moving him - he could decide to go any of the titles!

I wonder if its too early for Koslov to be moved to ECW and go against Kane for the title? Perhaps they want to continue his winning streak on Smackdown for another while.

Since Raw are teaming up with ECW, there's no point in moving Punk to Raw, it's a waste of a draft and as you said he has MITB. He has the right to be on all shows.

If Matt and Jeff are on the same show creative must have their feud mapped out from start to finish. If not they'll just end up tagging again which is bad.

I have a horrible feeling that Matt Hardy will be fed to Kozlov, since we know how creative doesn't feel Matt can draw:rolleyes: I will flip out if it happens.

ShawnRaven · 31-05-2008 11:37pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Someome said a few pages back that they thought Rey could go to ECW. Now that would be crazy, in the sense that he plays a big role in drawing ratings on SD and because it would really give ECW a boost.

Rey isn't much in the way of a draw, his title run tanked if i recall correctly.

I'd say Chris Jericho to ecw is a strong possibility.

I wouldn't particularly mind that, at least there's a good chance he'd get out of midcard hell, that is RAW.

VR!

ShawnRaven · 31-05-2008 11:40pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

If Matt and Jeff are on the same show creative must have their feud mapped out from start to finish. If not they'll just end up tagging again which is bad.

Agreed, the thing is the feud never properly happened when they were both split. And this time it'd need to be Jeff who would turn heel. The problem is, Jeff would need to piss off someone with more credible than Mattitude in order for the fans to turn on him. But don't tag them back up, for christs sakes.

I have a horrible feeling that Matt Hardy will be fed to Kozlov, since we know how creative doesn't feel Matt can draw:rolleyes: I will flip out if it happens.

Matt can't draw though, he may have better in ring skills, but he's lacking in the charisma department. He's been in singles since 2002, and he's still boring as hell. Jeff can get a crowd going, Matt... is just Matt!

VR!

Handsome Bob · 31-05-2008 11:56pm

validreasoning! wrote: »

Agreed, the thing is the feud never properly happened when they were both split. And this time it'd need to be Jeff who would turn heel. The problem is, Jeff would need to piss off someone with more credible than Mattitude in order for the fans to turn on him. But don't tag them back up, for christs sakes.

Matt can't draw though, he may have better in ring skills, but he's lacking in the charisma department. He's been in singles since 2002, and he's still boring as hell. Jeff can get a crowd going, Matt... is just Matt!

VR!

V.1 gimmick proved he has what it takes. He gets one of the most natural pops on SD too. I don't buy this 'it's up to the wrestler' crap to get yourself over. Creative is the key contributer in getting someone over. Don't tell me Batista's body and intensity is what got him over. It played a part, but it was the build up of Triple H's disrespect towards him that really got him over when he turned face. The anticipation was huge for that moment where Batista was finally going to show HHH who's boss.

Rey pulls in the hispanic audience which is key among the SD audience demograph. It's not his fault that he was portrayed as the underdog constantly, even as WHC he was still the underdog and not portrayed as any real threat.

ShawnRaven · 01-06-2008 12:09am

LZ5by5 wrote: »

V.1 gimmick proved he has what it takes. He gets one of the most natural pops on SD too.

Really? That's why the gimmick was dropped within a year? It lost it's novelty, just like every other gimmick Matt Hardy was given.

I don't buy this 'it's up to the wrestler' crap to get yourself over. Creative is the key contributer in getting someone over. Don't tell me Batista's body and intensity is what got him over. It played a part, but it was the build up of Triple H's disrespect towards him that really got him over when he turned face. The anticipation was huge for that moment where Batista was finally going to show HHH who's boss.

Not strictly true, Batista was still getting huge pops even as a heel. RAW at the Point in 2004 was a very good example, and he was still a heel and curtain jerking at the time. Creative are a part of getting you over, the wrestler is the key part. Take Dusty Rhodes in 1989 in WWE. Creative (at the request of Vince McMahon) did everything they could to bury Rhodes from the second he got there. They gave him embarrassing vignettes to start (to which his charisma managed to get him over before he got to the ring), they put him in horrible, unflattering ring gear, (black leather and polka dots on a fat guy?), and an out of shape manager who couldn't dance (but both of them managed to get her over as well with the fans).

All of which were obstacles to keep Rhodes down, and he got himself over and smashed right through them. And bearing in mind, not all TV channels carried NWA at the time, so not everyone, especially up north, would have heard of Rhodes back then before he joined the company. You don't have to buy that it's up to the wrestler to get himself over, but it's undisputable fact. And Rhodes is living proof.

Rey pulls in the hispanic audience which is key among the SD audience demograph. It's not his fault that he was portrayed as the underdog constantly, even as WHC he was still the underdog and not portrayed as any real threat.

For obvious reasons, he's a cruiserweight champion one year and WHC the next? So he's stuck in the ring with the likes of Khali and Batista, do you really take him seriously as a WHC? No, you don't, and why? It's all about limitations and knowing them. And i seriously doubt he pulls in the hispanic audience. You telling me that all the hispanic wrestling fans didn't watch WWE until 2002 when he joined? Because i somehow doubt that.

VR!

Handsome Bob · 01-06-2008 9:13am

V.1/ Mattitude got Matt Hardy over as a legit singles superstar. He was then moved to the 'A' show because of his success however unfortunately injury and the affair debacle thoroughly derailed any push he was getting. Also how do you expect someone to get over when he's basically fed to Edge upon his return and is portrayed as 'the plucky but out-of-his-depth' guy. You also say he has no charisma. Did you see his vignettes with MVP? Where he played a big part in getting the crowd to interact with MVP?

Rey Mysterio is a major player in drawing in not only the hispanic but the child demograph. It's not a coincidence that SD is performing poorly, more than usual, in the ratings right now. And I'm sure the hispanic audience was there pre-2002. But we are talking about an SD that was on top back then. Between the Rock and Hulk Hogan being the big names and accomplished wrestlers such as Edge, Benoit, Guerrero and Angle putting on 4 star matches every week SD was a great show.

Brolly · 01-06-2008 10:31am

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Rey pulls in the hispanic audience which is key among the SD audience demograph. It's not his fault that he was portrayed as the underdog constantly, even as WHC he was still the underdog and not portrayed as any real threat.

For Rey, he is always going to be the underdog. But one thing is for sure, he does pull a crowd, albeit mostly children and as LZ5by5 says, the hispanic audience. I have never seen so many children in my life with his masks and t-shirts on at shows as I have in the past year - and Rey has only been there a few months of the past year!

When he returns, I think they will need to keep him on SD - with ECW gone from the Tuesday night, the question will be whether or not people will want to shell out money to see SD? (SD crowd numbers were suffering before the ECW taping joined in on a Tuesday night - perhaps people felt they got more value for money in getting to both SD and ECW). I think it was prowrestling.com that reported on a few occasions last year that the arena's for the taped shows were only 60% full. I think the WWE will have to depend somewhat on Rey's fan-base to fill the arenas a bit more. Maybe I'm wrong!

Handsome Bob · 01-06-2008 11:32am

brolly wrote: »

For Rey, he is always going to be the underdog. But one thing is for sure, he does pull a crowd, albeit mostly children and as LZ5by5 says, the hispanic audience. I have never seen so many children in my life with his masks and t-shirts on at shows as I have in the past year - and Rey has only been there a few months of the past year!

When he returns, I think they will need to keep him on SD - with ECW gone from the Tuesday night, the question will be whether or not people will want to shell out money to see SD? (SD crowd numbers were suffering before the ECW taping joined in on a Tuesday night - perhaps people felt they got more value for money in getting to both SD and ECW). I think it was prowrestling.com that reported on a few occasions last year that the arena's for the taped shows were only 60% full. I think the WWE will have to depend somewhat on Rey's fan-base to fill the arenas a bit more. Maybe I'm wrong!

You are absolutely right Brolly. It is a really difficult one to call because of his importance to SD. He has been advertised for Raw House Shows for June so who knows where he will go.

mehfesto2 · 01-06-2008 11:51am

This is the network SD is moving to, yeah? :http://www.mynetworktv.com/
Doesn't look the most powerful network to be honest. Lots of magic shows.... :pac:

Seems to be a given amongst some other forums I've read that Jericho is off to SD and Batista to Raw. It makes sense too. Maybe and Edge/Jericho feud? That'd work for me. Pull up Jericho. Edge is a great heel for me.

Who's to be the big draw in the draft for ECW though? Will Kane stay on there? A few are suggesting Undertaker?! Personally, if he is to be leaing next year, I can see him head to Raw and finish on a high. He's obviously well respected in the WWE, what with him keeping that streak at WM, so I can't imagine they'd demote him before the off.

I reckon it's too early for that Russian chap to move to a high-up role there. For me anyway. He hasnt beaten anyone decent yet. Keep him where he is for a bit and let him work the ranks like Umaga did.

Brolly · 01-06-2008 1:26pm

mehfesto2 wrote: »

Who's to be the big draw in the draft for ECW though? Will Kane stay on there? A few are suggesting Undertaker?! Personally, if he is to be leaing next year, I can see him head to Raw and finish on a high. He's obviously well respected in the WWE, what with him keeping that streak at WM, so I can't imagine they'd demote him before the off.

I agree - Taker will probably take leave after WM25. I can see him make appearances at times and maybe show up at WM30 etc. I would hate for him to be placed on ECW - the man deserves a run on Raw (which, tbh he should have been on already - he is much more deserving of the A show than many others).

ShawnRaven · 01-06-2008 3:41pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

V.1/ Mattitude got Matt Hardy over as a legit singles superstar. He was then moved to the 'A' show because of his success

Woah! Hold up a second there fella, not true at all, he whined and whined so he could get on the same show as Lita, despite the fact that partners were deliberately put on different brand. His "success" had nothing at all to do with the move.

however unfortunately injury and the affair debacle thoroughly derailed any push he was getting. Also how do you expect someone to get over when he's basically fed to Edge upon his return and is portrayed as 'the plucky but out-of-his-depth' guy.

He was going nowhere before his injury. And the affair made him more high profile as he and Edge put asses on the seats for their program in 2005. But both he and Edge were still midcarders at that stage, Edge was able to step up, Mattitude... well, let's not go there.

You also say he has no charisma. Did you see his vignettes with MVP? Where he played a big part in getting the crowd to interact with MVP?

His feud with MVP is entertaining, i will give you that, but other than the last year, he's been as bland as the wall he stands in front of!

Rey Mysterio is a major player in drawing in not only the hispanic but the child demograph. It's not a coincidence that SD is performing poorly, more than usual, in the ratings right now. And I'm sure the hispanic audience was there pre-2002. But we are talking about an SD that was on top back then.

SD wasn't really on top back around 2001, early 2002. For most of that, it wasn't even split, it was a case having a second show to spread across more networks. RAW was still more successful as it was. So i don't buy that at all.

Between the Rock and Hulk Hogan being the big names and accomplished wrestlers such as Edge, Benoit, Guerrero and Angle putting on 4 star matches every week SD was a great show.

Are you serious? Hogan had only come back about four months before Rey had made his debut! And by the time he'd turned face, people were getting bored of him as it was. His match was HHH in April was far from spectacular and that program with Taker (where Hogan couldn't even start the bike to get it up the ramp) was an abortion. Rock was in and out of the company as well, Guerrero had only just come back and Benoit was just back from injury. They were both on RAW initially when they came back too, they didn't end up on SD until after Rey had made his debut. and the only exciting thing Edge did was be in that hair vs hair program. Trust me, SD was in the crapper at the time Rey debuted.

VR!

Handsome Bob · 01-06-2008 5:33pm

You are right about Matt wanting to go to Raw to be with Lita, and he knew his career was going to take a backseat on Raw. I admit that. But the fact remains he was over on SD and he always got very positive reactions from the crowd and he was always able to entertain.

I got my years messed up about when the brand split actually took place.You asked me though who pulled in the crowds. As Brolly said it's a testament to Rey's popularity that when even injured there are still kids wearing his masks. He is one of the most popular guys on SD and it's not a coincidence that SD is performing badly right now in terms of ratings.

ShawnRaven · 01-06-2008 6:02pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

You are right about Matt wanting to go to Raw to be with Lita, and he knew his career was going to take a backseat on Raw. I admit that. But the fact remains he was over on SD and he always got very positive reactions from the crowd and he was always able to entertain.

But he's a one trick pony, he gets a run for a few months and either gets injured or fired. There's nothing about him that will ever pull him out of the midcard. People raved on how he'll be the next big thing and will do so much better than Jeff, (whilst rubbing it in the face of Jeff fans), who's laughing now? That's all i say on that.

I got my years messed up about when the brand split actually took place.You asked me though who pulled in the crowds. As Brolly said it's a testament to Rey's popularity that when even injured there are still kids wearing his masks. He is one of the most popular guys on SD and it's not a coincidence that SD is performing badly right now in terms of ratings.

Oh i'll agree, he sells merch, and he's over with the kids, but he's not World Heavyweight Championship material. Never was, never will be. Which if i recall correctly, was the point of this discussion. The promos leading up to his championship left a bad taste in my mouth at the time "I will win this for you Eddie", it should really have said "I will win this for you, Eddie... oh, and for me too!" Blowing the corpse of Eddie Guerrero for a push, one PPV at a time. Personally his Rumble win in 2006 made me want to vomit.

VR!

Rjd2 · 01-06-2008 6:18pm

In an ideal world......
Smackdown
Y2J, Morrison, and Jeff
Raw
Batista (To shut him up) Taker, Punk, Natalya
ECW
HHH- In his first match have him lose a loser leaves WWE match to The Miz

Rhodes
Rey

Vince135792003 · 01-06-2008 6:23pm

validreasoning! wrote: »

Oh i'll agree, he sells merch, and he's over with the kids, but he's not World Heavyweight Championship material. Never was, never will be.

I disagree with that and always have. There's room to make someone like Rey a major champ in a company where there are 2 main belts as opposed to one.

And when I say someone like Rey, I mean a guy who has a track record of drawing viewers on tv, sells alot of merchandise, is very over and is great (when healthy) in the ring.

His title run was poorly done in my opinion. I don't blame him for that though.

Unfortunately too, over the last few years, his body seems to be breaking down.

ShawnRaven · 01-06-2008 6:30pm

Rjd2 wrote: »

HHH- In his first match have him lose a loser leaves WWE match to The Miz

And it's thinking like that, is why Vince McMahon is a millionaire, and you aren't

VR!

Rjd2 · 01-06-2008 6:32pm

validreasoning! wrote: »

And it's thinking like that, is why Vince McMahon is a millionaire, and you aren't

VR!

To be honest even though the Miz is a bit of a joke among some he has entertained me more than HHH'S brutal face run since he returned, but heh Hunter does not like putting over young talent does he?

rovert · 01-06-2008 6:34pm

Vince135792003 wrote: »

I disagree with that and always have. There's room to make someone like Rey a major champ in a company where there are 2 main belts as opposed to one.

The money is in the chase for Rey. Having him as champ is major credibility killer in my opinion.

Vince135792003 wrote: »

And when I say someone like Rey, I mean a guy who has a track record of drawing viewers on tv, sells alot of merchandise, is very over and is great (when healthy) in the ring.

I argue if this is the case (which it is) then he doesnt need a belt.

ShawnRaven · 01-06-2008 6:38pm

Rjd2 wrote: »

To be honest even though the Miz is a bit of a joke among some he has entertained me more than HHH'S brutal face run since he returned, but heh Hunter does not like putting over young talent does he?

Neither does Undertaker, but still humanoids love him! Did you see SD this weekend?

Taker squashes 5 guys and then no sells a casket stuffing

This is exactly why i can't f*cking stand him, same old sh*t on a different night!
As for HHH not putting younger talent over. HHH bent over backwards for Jeff at the start of the year. It was Jeff who screwed that one over.

I will agree that HHH sucks as a face, always did unless it was a DX thing, and let's face it, that's run it's course a long time ago.

VR!

Rjd2 · 01-06-2008 6:55pm

validreasoning! wrote: »

Neither does Undertaker, but still humanoids love him! Did you see SD this weekend?
Taker squashes 5 guys and then no sells a casket stuffing

This is exactly why i can't f*cking stand him, same old sh*t on a different night!
As for HHH not putting younger talent over. HHH bent over backwards for Jeff at the start of the year. It was Jeff who screwed that one over.

I will agree that HHH sucks as a face, always did unless it was a DX thing, and let's face it, that's run it's course a long time ago.

VR!

Oh only a fool would admit that Taker has not ued politics to protect himself over the years and yes it is frustrating to watch Taker consistently squash Edge’s huge posse especially Edge. The one thing that makes his run more bearable over HHH’S current one is that most including myself know that this is Takers final title run for his years of service to the WWE. HHH in the other hand will have loads more boring runs with the title whether we like it or not where the likes of young talent like Orton will be made look chumps on a weekly basis.

Handsome Bob · 01-06-2008 7:29pm

validreasoning! wrote: »

But he's a one trick pony, he gets a run for a few months and either gets injured or fired. There's nothing about him that will ever pull him out of the midcard. People raved on how he'll be the next big thing and will do so much better than Jeff, (whilst rubbing it in the face of Jeff fans), who's laughing now? That's all i say on that.

Oh i'll agree, he sells merch, and he's over with the kids, but he's not World Heavyweight Championship material. Never was, never will be. Which if i recall correctly, was the point of this discussion. The promos leading up to his championship left a bad taste in my mouth at the time "I will win this for you Eddie", it should really have said "I will win this for you, Eddie... oh, and for me too!" Blowing the corpse of Eddie Guerrero for a push, one PPV at a time. Personally his Rumble win in 2006 made me want to vomit.

VR!

I seem to rememberthat it was Jeff fans who claimed he'd leave Matt Hardy in the shade. What happened? He ultimately got fired dor refusing to kick his addiction while Matt excelled in his V.1 giimick. Even now, Jeff is still messing up, mitb wa his and he blew it. And I'm a big Jeff fan, I was bitter when he blew his golden chance at WM24.

The WWE are the ones who decide on storylines and are opportunistic. They fed off the real life issues between Matt and Edge, and they bled Eddie's death dry. They saw an opportunity to push Rey and they took it. I'm sure Rey was not comfortable doing a stoyline that portrayed him as incapable of doing anything for himself.

ShawnRaven · 01-06-2008 7:43pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I seem to rememberthat it was Jeff fans who claimed he'd leave Matt Hardy in the shade. What happened? He ultimately got fired dor refusing to kick his addiction while Matt excelled in his V.1 giimick. Even now, Jeff is still messing up, mitb wa his and he blew it. And I'm a big Jeff fan, I was bitter when he blew his golden chance at WM24.

A Golden chance Matt never got, now why's that? Matt excelled in his V1 gimmick, sadly that only lasted about 9 months. 9 months of a 6 year solo career is a drop in the ocean. Jeff, on the other hand, no matter how he messes up, has a lot more crowd interest than Matt does, and will get back into the main event picture quicker than Matt will. Jeff has what Matt doesn't have.

The WWE are the ones who decide on storylines and are opportunistic. They fed off the real life issues between Matt and Edge, and they bled Eddie's death dry. They saw an opportunity to push Rey and they took it. I'm sure Rey was not comfortable doing a stoyline that portrayed him as incapable of doing anything for himself.

It didn't stop him from going ahead with it though did it? And while WWE fed off the issues between Matt and Edge, it made for great TV and great matches between them for that. It should have rocketed both their careers really, and as i said earlier, Edge was able to take it to the next level, Matt can't. Matt has been given his chances and he keeps choking.

VR!

ShawnRaven · 01-06-2008 7:45pm

Rjd2 wrote: »

HHH in the other hand will have loads more boring runs with the title whether we like it or not where the likes of young talent like Orton will be made look chumps on a weekly basis.

Worked for Undertaker in 2005 didn't it? Orton on a roll with his Legend Killer streak, and Taker says "no no, i have to protect my streak, it means sooooo much, even more than a title reign"

Has HHH been a selfish c*nt time after time? So has Hogan, Bret, Austin and Undertaker, they're all gonna be considered legends.

Hey, i don't like it any more than you do.
VR!

Vince135792003 · 01-06-2008 7:45pm

There's that argument alright that if Rey is drawing all that merchandise, popping ratings etc... that he doesn't need the belt.

You can look at it another way. By giving him the belt it could propel his popularity even more. My argument for that is simple; kids love winners/champions. The fundamental reason why I loved Hogan (and as a consequence annoyed my mam and dad to buy hogan related stuff) was that he was the number 1 guy when I was a kid. He was the champion.

A primary reason why 99% of the children of Ireland will tell you Cena is their favorite is in my opinion because he was champ for such a long time. And with that came lots of money.

By making Rey the number one guy (for even a moderate period of time) as the super hero that always prevails, it adds something to him that you don't get by just having him in mid card matches and not being champion.

Maybe the boat has sailed with him though, given the injuries he's had over the last few years.

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