Chimney/Plumber Query

Lynch32

hi all,
on my original plans i had 2 chimney's in one room. to explain its a large open plan kitchen/dining + living room (L shaped). The idea woud be to have a stanley cooker in the kitchen and then a regular solid fuel stove in the L part. Effectively there would be 2 chimney's in the one room. the architect/engineer/builder didn't seem to have an issue with it and i was none the wiser.

Anyways just before i started the build i decided to eliminate the one in the kitchen (the one that would have been back to back with the hot press), becuase i thought i don't really need 2. No other reason other than i thought it would be over kill (I wasn't remotely thinking of plumbing).

So we started the build a few months ago. All along i made it clear the stove would always be used for heating rads as we've access to solid fuel. Then i read on the boards about the 15 foot rule i.e. stove to work with back boiler should be as close as possible and ideally no further away than 15 ft. At this point (just a week or 2 ago) i decided to panic a little. I asked the builder and engineer - there response was they didn't know and best to ask a plumber. So i did, he basically said that there was no way on earth that the existing configuation would work for 2 reasons
1) distance - about 45 ft from hot press
2) the room the stove is in - has a vaulated ceiling, so you would have an issue getting a rise. basically he said it would be very dangerous.

He said he couldn't belive that between an artitect/enginner/builder that one of them might have questioned this i.e. he considered this standard plumber knowledge in the industry.
As the roof isn't on yet (just felt) I came up with the idea that i would get an additional chimney built in the kitchen i.e. the one that was previouly on the plans. Of course the builder nearly freaked but i pretty much said it had to be done, so he agreed. i don't think its a big job other than a pain i.e. he will have to get block layers back for a day.

So my main questions are:
1) Is it unreasonable for me to request the chimney to built at this stage
2) is there any risk doing this
3) what do i do with the other chimney - as according to the plumber i asked you can't have 2 chimneys in one room (for draft reasons). Is this definitely the case? I'd hate to knock is down as I designed the room around it as such
4) should my arctitect/engineer/builder spotted the flaw i.e. the 2 chimney in one room scenario and also the distance issue.

your comments would be welcome. Perhaps its my own fault for not researching this better to start of with. I wasn't in plumber mode back then. Sorry for such a long post/rant!

Thanks
S

boots1

Lynch32,

Interesting post. I have almost exactly the same scenario...large L Shape open plan area, solid fuel stove positioned 46ft from cylinder in a room with a vaulted ceiling & no chimney!! Thought I was reading about my own plans for a moment! Anyway, I consulted with my plumber who said no problem. I've the flow & return fitted in the subfloor & a run of copper pipe going to a header tank in the void in the main attic. I'll be fitting the stove with a double skin flue, running straight up inside the room along an external wall before going off @ 45 just before the ridge to take it out on the rear of the roof. Maybe worth getting another opinion, or perhaps your plumber is right & mine wrong?? Either way, I'm continuing as planned.

Quazzie

You'll need foundations under any chimney thus resulting in and floor already down having to be redone. If the builder tries to build on the existing floor I'd seriously be questioning his knowledge. Not sure about the two fires and draft theory but it kinda makes sense. As for the distance from the boiler I would imagine this being pretty much standard knowledge.

Lynch32

boots1 wrote: »

Lynch32,

Interesting post. I have almost exactly the same scenario...large L Shape open plan area, solid fuel stove positioned 46ft from cylinder in a room with a vaulted ceiling & no chimney!! Thought I was reading about my own plans for a moment! Anyway, I consulted with my plumber who said no problem. I've the flow & return fitted in the subfloor & a run of copper pipe going to a header tank in the void in the main attic. I'll be fitting the stove with a double skin flue, running straight up inside the room along an external wall before going off @ 45 just before the ridge to take it out on the rear of the roof. Maybe worth getting another opinion, or perhaps your plumber is right & mine wrong?? Either way, I'm continuing as planned.

Hi Boots1,
thanks for the response. think my situation is a little different though - i have a chimney in the L part with the vaulted ceiling - thats not the issue. the issue for me is that the distance from it to the hot press makes it useless from a back boiler point of view. he also said it would be dangerous even if we attempted to hook it up.
this is why I've decided to rebuild the additional chimney in the kitchen (which i already had on the plans). Ideally i would like to keep the 2 chimneys, but its looking like the chimney in the L shaped part might have to go.
although based on the other post there could be issues with the floor area and building a new chimney. I'll have to get onto the engineer to see if its ok to do this. Hopefully it is, else my back boiler scenario is a non runner:(

cheers
S

Lynch32

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

You'll need foundations under any chimney thus resulting in and floor already down having to be redone. If the builder tries to build on the existing floor I'd seriously be questioning his knowledge. Not sure about the two fires and draft theory but it kinda makes sense. As for the distance from the boiler I would imagine this being pretty much standard knowledge.

thanks Quazzie2002,
when you say the floor area would have to be redone - are u referring to just the area around the chimney or for the entire room/house?? Probably a stupid question. I am going to run everything by the engineer tonight.
Cheers
S

Quazzie

Well he need to add structural strenght beneath the chimney, so he will have to take that area out and probably about 300mm or so around the chimney. laying blocks for a chimney on top of a standard floor is a really bad idea. He'll have to reconcrete the area under the new chimney with steel reinforcement at the very minimum. Your engineer will explain fully to what extent you need to cut into your concrete, but i'd reckon all the way down to the original poured concrete foundation.

Lynch32

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

Well he need to add structural strenght beneath the chimney, so he will have to take that area out and probably about 300mm or so around the chimney. laying blocks for a chimney on top of a standard floor is a really bad idea. He'll have to reconcrete the area under the new chimney with steel reinforcement at the very minimum. Your engineer will explain fully to what extent you need to cut into your concrete, but i'd reckon all the way down to the original poured concrete foundation.

thanks for that Quazzie,at least i am more clued in that is not a matter of just building the blocks on top of the floor i.e. just encase he tries to tell me anything different. As you say the engineer should know what will be required.

Quazzie

Without seeing the site thats all I can state but I can say that there are builders out there who will do anything just to get off site on time, including building on un-solid ground.

Lynch32

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

Without seeing the site thats all I can state but I can say that there are builders out there who will do anything just to get off site on time, including building on un-solid ground.

i agree totally with you? I've already had a few run in's with my builder i.e. me (who knows very little) has had to point out a few very obvious things (involving cutting corners) to him already. I really like to keep on the right side of him, but its hard sometimes. thanks again;)

boots1

Lynch...any harm to ask why it is considered dangerous to try & hook it up? Very surprised my plumber hasn't mentioned anything along those lines as he's a very reputable guy. Appreciate any insight. Thanks in advance.

Lynch32

boots1 wrote: »

Lynch...any harm to ask why it is considered dangerous to try & hook it up? Very surprised my plumber hasn't mentioned anything along those lines as he's a very reputable guy. Appreciate any insight. Thanks in advance.

Hi Boots1, i'd love to tell you why its dangerous, however i don't know as i didnt quizz him unfortunately on that aspect.:( Basically once he confirmed to me that it would be useless from back boiler point of view - thats all i needed to hear. As far as i remember the danger was associated with the vaulted ceiling aspect i.e. the height of the rise. Unfortunately my technical plumbing knowledge is almost zero.
Are u planning to use it as a back boiler ?? If its the same distance as mine my plumber confirmed it would be a complete waste of time. He really knows his stuff, i'd love to get him to do my the job when the times comes but he's booked out until Nov. He only did it as a favour to me as he knows my brother i.e. he came down and gave me his opinion on the entire house as such.
the next time i see him i will ask (probably this Friday) about the danger aspect. There is also chance i may have even got confused what he was on about here.:o
Cheers
Sharon

RKQ

Self-build rule one - don't change your plans at construction stage!
Did the Builder put in a foundation for the chimney before you changed your mind?
15ft rule isn't written in stone, its good practice if you are a plumber.
It may not be taught to Engineers or Architects. They'd be taught to keep plumbing close together, in stacks, to keep it simple and economical.

You can get all the advice in the world, but at the end of the day if you change your mind, its your call and your cost. Never change major elements during construction, it costs more and causes confusion!

boots1

RKQ....thanks for the comments & insight. I know my run is pretty long but pipes are sunk now, so i'll probably proceed. Stove & cylinder both on groud floor (bungalow) - does this make any difference? One final question (as you sound informed)...would you hazard a guess as to what Sharon's (Lynch32) plumber may have inferred by being 'dangerous'? Thanks again, apple1

Lynch32

RKQ wrote: »

Self-build rule one - don't change your plans at construction stage!
Did the Builder put in a foundation for the chimney before you changed your mind?
15ft rule isn't written in stone, its good practice if you are a plumber.
It may not be taught to Engineers or Architects. They'd be taught to keep plumbing close together, in stacks, to keep it simple and economical.

You can get all the advice in the world, but at the end of the day if you change your mind, its your call and your cost. Never change major elements during construction, it costs more and causes confusion!

Thanks RKQ, i hear what you are saying and agree. However in my case i changed it with the architect before i started i.e. the builder and engineer would have seen this on plan. I didn't just say to the builder leave that out the day before he started or anything (my first post might have implied this). I do feel that the architect should have basic knowledge of things like this as its too late when the plumber comes in to do his first fixing. Its just lucky that I coped in time. This i perceive to be standard knowledge for a good architect. He should at least suggest that it might be an issue so you could go off and get advice yourself. An architect I thought should be able to advise on all aspects of a good design. I do agree you shouldn't change things during construction, in this case i didn't (although I've added a few closets here and there that weren't on the plan ). Regarding the 15 ft rule, i hear you in that its not definitive rule. For example if it was say 20 ft away, i'd say a non plumber might be forgiven to think it was ok. However if the stove is located 45ft away from the hot press, I'd imagine alarm bells should ring in somebody's head, especially in recent times where people seem to talk about nothing else other than "what heating system are you putting in" as a result of rising fuel costs.
I completely understand now when people say that you need to build 3 houses before you get it right. I really think i could make a better job (based on lessons I've learned already) of a second house (that won't be happening though as this is the one and only for me).
Cheers
S