July 1st Regulation Changes

MrPudding

Morgans wrote: »

Again, I will repeat what I said earlier. Since you say that you werent being flippant earlier I will presume the same here. I dont think the reference from mammy would work. I dont think a questionnaire would work either. Maybe both should be trialled in some small pilot groups just to be sure though.

Such sarcasm. Did you forget that I said earlier some sort of state sponsored driving school system, where all learners are taught in a systemised standard manner how to drive correctly. If these "schools" were set up with trained specialist driving instructors/consultants, the students could be assessed as they progress through x hours of training. At the end of the x hours, the instructors/consultants decide whether or not the student requires more training. This decision would NOT be based on their last 30 minutes of training, and their last 30 minutes of training would not decide whether they will be able to drive to their job legally the following morning. Whether they have to move house because of driver laws etc.

This system would pass the learner driver on the totality of their training. This would be a better system that getting lessons from someone who until recently didnt need any qualification to set themselves up as an instructor, who give instructions which can conflict (for instance - should you always cycle down through the gears when coming to a stop? Ive heard different answers from the two driving instructors that I used and friends have had the same experience) To be judged then on one pressurised half hour where the actual test bares only a resemblance to the way you will drive in the "real-world".

Its like the leaving cert being the true arbiter of a persons intelligence. Anyone who gets over 400 points is intelligent, anyone who doesnt get 400 points is an idiot. Rather than judge intelligence on one test, which does separate the wheat from the chaff to some extent, use the expertise of the teachers who know the students, who know what tehy are looking for to judge.

That is great. Something I think most people would be happy with. Now. When can you deliver it and how much will it cost?

MrP

Morgans

You expecting a serious answer form someone who is entering this into an internet forum at 3.36 (ish) on a Friday afternoon....OK.

100 billion euro and next month.

Bring on the smart-arse contest.

Morgans

When I say next month, I mean August. I'm off on Monday.

techdiver

MrPudding wrote: »

That is great. Something I think most people would be happy with. Now. When can you deliver it and how much will it cost?

MrP

He answered your question correctly and gave a good description of a far superior system to what we currently have.

It the end game of all of this is to reduce road deaths then cost should not be a factor. In fact it doesn't necessarily have to be state funded either, it could be a paid for course that every person wishing to drive would have to enrol and pay for themselves if they wished to drive.

An extension to this proposal could be the teaching of the above structured course in school as perhaps an elective subject during leaving cert etc.

donaghs

If they change the laws, it would help if the relevant authority (the RSA) would answer the phone!

techdiver

donaghs wrote: »

If they change the laws, it would help if the relevant authority (the RSA) would answer the phone!

Here Here!! I've been trying for a week solid to call them with no luck.

Morgans

techdiver wrote: »

He answered your question correctly and gave a good description of a far superior system to what we currently have.

It the end game of all of this is to reduce road deaths then cost should not be a factor. In fact it doesn't necessarily have to be state funded either, it could be a paid for course that every person wishing to drive would have to enrol and pay for themselves if they wished to drive.

An extension to this proposal could be the teaching of the above structured course in school as perhaps an elective subject during leaving cert etc.

I would think it should be subsidised in some way by the state, (the benefits of a properly trained driving population would be paid by all) but the price paid by the student and the number of hours trained could be linked to insurance payments.

MrPudding

Morgans wrote: »

You expecting a serious answer form someone who is entering this into an internet forum at 3.36 (ish) on a Friday afternoon....OK.

100 billion euro and next month.

Bring on the smart-arse contest.

Not really. I was hoping that someone might realise that what you propose, which is very similar to what I would propose myself, is a long term very expensive goal.

Morgans wrote: »

When I say next month, I mean August. I'm off on Monday.

techdiver wrote: »

He answered your question correctly and gave a good description of a far superior system to what we currently have.

Yes. And I pretty much agree with every bit of it. It would be an excellent system.

techdiver wrote: »

It the end game of all of this is to reduce road deaths then cost should not be a factor.

Ah, you see here is the problem. It is actually about appearing to be trying to reduce road deaths. Further, it is about appearing to be trying to reduce road deaths whilst spending the least amount of money possible.

techdiver wrote: »

In fact it doesn't necessarily have to be state funded either, it could be a paid for course that every person wishing to drive would have to enrol and pay for themselves if they wished to drive.

There would still need to be money and political will found in order to set it up.

techdiver wrote: »

An extension to this proposal could be the teaching of the above structured course in school as perhaps an elective subject during leaving cert etc.

Comprehensive road safety should be part of the school curriculum, IMO. But again, that is not going to happen in the short term.

The change which is about to happen is a short term change and it is hoped it will be a quick win. It is targeting drivers that are statistically more likely to be involved in accidents and requiring that they are accompanied by someone that is supposed to know what they are doing.

I am sorry but you cannot argue that a person that is learning to drive and could potentially never have had a driving lesson or had any kind of guidance at all should be allowed on public roads by themselves. Seriously, how can you argue that. Just close your eyes and repeat it to yourself a few times and see if it makes any kind of sense. Then lets look at people that can't pass a simple test. Are you really happy that they are allowed to drive on their own? Really?

MrP

techdiver

MrPudding wrote: »

The change which is about to happen is a short term change and it is hoped it will be a quick win.

Unfortunately I don't think it is going to change anything on our roads other then the fact that everyone involved in fatal accidents will be on full licenses.

Rushing people to take a test and maybe passing it, may prove to be more detrimental to deaths on our roads.

People who are not ready for their tests will sit them anyway and in some cases they will pass without really having all the abilities needed.

Example: My girlfriend told me of a woman who lived locally who passed her driving test in a part of Limerick that doesn't even include roundabouts in the test route. She passed her test and then had to get subsequent lessons to help her improve her driving because she clearly was not ready to drive on her own even though she was legally cleared to do so.

I know this is only one case but I'm sure there are more.

Morgans

I wouldn't over-estimate the cost of such a system. I think it definitely would be feasible, but would of course take proper planning, cost estimating, staffing etc. The price of it wouldn't rule it out for me.

pocketvenus

techdiver wrote: »

Unfortunately I don't think it is going to change anything on our roads other then the fact that everyone involved in fatal accidents will be on full licenses.

Rushing people to take a test and maybe passing it, may prove to be more detrimental to deaths on our roads.

People who are not ready for their tests will sit them anyway and in some cases they will pass without really having all the abilities needed.

Example: My girlfriend told me of a woman who lived locally who passed her driving test in a part of Limerick that doesn't even include roundabouts in the test route. She passed her test and then had to get subsequent lessons to help her improve her driving because she clearly was not ready to drive on her own even though she was legally cleared to do so.

I know this is only one case but I'm sure there are more.

I fully agree with you there. I know of a few people including a relation who have been driving under a year and have never taken a professional lesson in their life or just one pre-test who have passed their test and none of these are over 22, the youngest just 18. I've been in a been in a car with one of them ( we were accompanied by a full license driver) and I swear she did not even know the basics of what to do to change gear.

You are right I'd hate to say it but I am fearful that in a year or two the death toll on our roads involving young people on full licenses will sky rocket.

Instead of a proper fix they are looking for a quick one and this may prove to be to their detrement.

MrPudding

techdiver wrote: »

Unfortunately I don't think it is going to change anything on our roads other then the fact that everyone involved in fatal accidents will be on full licenses.

The effect that it has remains to be seen. What it does mean is that the criminally stupid situation where a person can drive on their own having received no instruction whatsoever. Are you telling me that you are supportive of a young person getting into a car for the first time, on their own and driving on the public roads?

techdiver wrote: »

Rushing people to take a test and maybe passing it, may prove to be more detrimental to deaths on our roads.

How many people are "rushing" to take a test? When this was announced 8 month ago there were over 400k provo licences and only 125k on the waiting list for a test. Anyone on anything other than a 1st provisional cannot say they were rushed. They have had years to sit a test. People on first provo licences were never allowed to drive on their own anyway, so what is the problem?

techdiver wrote: »

People who are not ready for their tests will sit them anyway and in some cases they will pass without really having all the abilities needed.

Newsflash. People who are not ready sit the test all the time. The pass rate is around 50%. Regardless of what skills they may not get and still pass, if they are dangerous, they will not pass.

techdiver wrote: »

Example: My girlfriend told me of a woman who lived locally who passed her driving test in a part of Limerick that doesn't even include roundabouts in the test route. She passed her test and then had to get subsequent lessons to help her improve her driving because she clearly was not ready to drive on her own even though she was legally cleared to do so.

I know this is only one case but I'm sure there are more.

So what? I know some one that passed that is really good. Do I win?

Morgans wrote: »

I wouldn't over-estimate the cost of such a system. I think it definitely would be feasible, but would of course take proper planning, cost estimating, staffing etc. The price of it wouldn't rule it out for me.

The cost would not rule it out for me either. I think it should be a "whatever the cost" project. But then I am not in goverment.

pocketvenus wrote: »

I fully agree with you there. I know of a few people including a relation who have been driving under a year and have never taken a professional lesson in their life or just one pre-test who have passed their test and none of these are over 22, the youngest just 18. I've been in a been in a car with one of them ( we were accompanied by a full license driver) and I swear she did not even know the basics of what to do to change gear.

OK, so yet another example. So what? We all know people that pass the test and are crap. We know people that pass the test and are good. We also know people that fail the test and are crap and people that fail the test and are good. So what?

pocketvenus wrote: »

You are right I'd hate to say it but I am fearful that in a year or two the death toll on our roads involving young people on full licenses will sky rocket.

Maybe it will, maybe it won't . But surely it is sensible to have some kind of system to test ability?

pocketvenus wrote: »

Instead of a proper fix they are looking for a quick one and this may prove to be to their detrement.

Well, that is the irish way, isn't it.

I will repeat a section form one of my previous posts, perhaps the three of you could respond to it specifically, it has been asked a number of times.

I am sorry but you cannot argue that a person that is learning to drive and could potentially never have had a driving lesson or had any kind of guidance at all should be allowed on public roads by themselves. Seriously, how can you argue that? Just close your eyes and repeat it to yourself a few times and see if it makes any kind of sense. Then lets look at people that can't pass a simple test. Are you really happy that they are allowed to drive on their own? Really?

MrP

pocketvenus

MrPudding wrote: »

The effect that it has remains to be seen. What it does mean is that the criminally stupid situation where a person can drive on their own having received no instruction whatsoever. Are you telling me that you are supportive of a young person getting into a car for the first time, on their own and driving on the public roads?

How many people are "rushing" to take a test? When this was announced 8 month ago there were over 400k provo licences and only 125k on the waiting list for a test. Anyone on anything other than a 1st provisional cannot say they were rushed. They have had years to sit a test. People on first provo licences were never allowed to drive on their own anyway, so what is the problem?

Newsflash. People who are not ready sit the test all the time. The pass rate is around 50%. Regardless of what skills they may not get and still pass, if they are dangerous, they will not pass.


So what? I know some one that passed that is really good. Do I win?

The cost would not rule it out for me either. I think it should be a "whatever the cost" project. But then I am not in goverment.

OK, so yet another example. So what? We all know people that pass the test and are crap. We know people that pass the test and are good. We also know people that fail the test and are crap and people that fail the test and are good. So what?


Maybe it will, maybe it won't . But surely it is sensible to have some kind of system to test ability?


Well, that is the irish way, isn't it.

I will repeat a section form one of my previous posts, perhaps the three of you could respond to it specifically, it has been asked a number of times.

I am sorry but you cannot argue that a person that is learning to drive and could potentially never have had a driving lesson or had any kind of guidance at all should be allowed on public roads by themselves. Seriously, how can you argue that? Just close your eyes and repeat it to yourself a few times and see if it makes any kind of sense. Then lets look at people that can't pass a simple test. Are you really happy that they are allowed to drive on their own? Really?

MrP

Look I can see that you have your own opinion which you are entitled to but why don't you repeat this to yourself that if we had mandtory driving lessons and driving instructors signing off that this person is of test standard that they can drive for a period until they get a driving test.

We all go and take pre-test lessons with a driving instructor who acts like a RSA/SGS tester and gives us a test. Surely if we pass their standard, which is the same as the RSA/SGS, then surely if they are willing to sign off on that then there is a case for people driving on their own for a few weeks until they get a test. As it is said the average test time is 8 weeks being reduced all the time so that won't be a problem any more - virtually on demand tests.

I know people may argue that you will drive perfect knowing you have to to get him to sign off on you but then sure don't people do that in their real test and once they pass go back to the old way of driving which is just as dangerous.

MrPudding

pocketvenus wrote: »

Look I can see that you have your own opinion which you are entitled to but why don't you repeat this to yourself that if we had mandtory driving lessons and driving instructors signing off that this person is of test standard that they can drive for a period until they get a driving test.

If we had mandatory lessons and some kind of standard or test to which all instructors could be held, this would actually be a very reasonable way of helping those drivers on second provisionals continue to drive until they passed their test. Do we have those two things?

pocketvenus wrote: »

We all go and take pre-test lessons with a driving instructor who acts like a RSA/SGS tester and gives us a test. Surely if we pass their standard, which is the same as the RSA/SGS, then surely if they are willing to sign off on that then there is a case for people driving on their own for a few weeks until they get a test. As it is said the average test time is 8 weeks being reduced all the time so that won't be a problem any more - virtually on demand tests.

Again, I think this would be a good option for people on second provisionals who are about to lose a privilege they had.

pocketvenus wrote: »

I know people may argue that you will drive perfect knowing you have to to get him to sign off on you but then sure don't people do that in their real test and once they pass go back to the old way of driving which is just as dangerous.

Not really a weakness in your plan when you consider it is what most people do after passing the proper test.....:D

MrP

bigpinkelephant

I think we should have something like what the Germans have where you have to have different tests.

It should be like it is in college. In college, you have to do well overall in your different subjects to pass. Even if you get 100% in 3 subjects, if you get below say 30% in another then you fail the year. You do exams every year in all your different subjects, rather than one 45 minute exam at the end of your 3/4 years.

It should be the same in the driving test.
You have a different test for
-Busy traffic and junctions/roundabouts
-Dual carriageways and motorways
-Night driving
-Manouevers- turnabouts, hill starts, reversing around a corner, parallel parking.

If you don't get, say, 90% overall, you fail. Or if you get less than say 80& in one test then you fail.

It would mean you are tested in all areas of driving and it would also cut out people failing/claiming they failed because they were having a bad day etc.

wil

techdiver wrote: »

Unfortunately I don't think it is going to change anything on our roads other then the fact that everyone involved in fatal accidents will be on full licenses.

Rushing people to take a test and maybe passing it, may prove to be more detrimental to deaths on our roads.

People who are not ready for their tests will sit them anyway and in some cases they will pass without really having all the abilities needed.

Example: My girlfriend told me of a woman who lived locally who passed her driving test in a part of Limerick that doesn't even include roundabouts in the test route. She passed her test and then had to get subsequent lessons to help her improve her driving because she clearly was not ready to drive on her own even though she was legally cleared to do so.

I know this is only one case but I'm sure there are more.

Where do I start.?
Rushing???? people in to a test.
People not ready for tests doing them anyway???
Have you read yourself back?

Your example of someone who you know that heard of someone they heard of that....
is actually a good example of a driver with a responsible attitude.
Realising their limitations, they went on to get further training.
(Be careful though on the details of second or third hand stories. I have heard many but I would rarely ever use them)

Actually I did same myself. I had an excellent instructor, passed my test first time in very little time, didnt own a car until I passed. At the recommendation of my instructor, I had further lessons on motorways.
As he told me, once you have good basics, motorways are very simple, and yes they are. But so many on our roads dont even have those basics.

wil

This thread could/will go on forever at this rate. But that is just typical and illustrates much of the problem.

The driving test is an attempt to confirm a driver is safe to learn on his own.
It doesnt confirm that a driver is an excellent driver, is confident and competent in all aspects of driving.
It is a basic test. You could say it is the driving equivalent to the junior cert.
Everyone is obliged to do it.

All that is happening as of next week, is that our regulations are coming in to line with the rest of the developed world, so that our so-called advanced nation now will have Learner rules at least as good as many in second and third world countries.

What most fail to realise is, that in terms of Learner regulations, we are the sole anomaly in Europe and almost every developed country. We are a laughing stock.
That is finally, at least 2 decades late, about to change.

A small step in the right direction.
Instead of the previous no steps in any direction.

You can propose alternative systems ad infinitum,
it is a very easy task, I could give you a dozen in 10 minutes, but you have to be realistic too.
Despite our new(soon to be old) found wealth, proposed improvements dont happen too fast in Ireland.

So I see little wrong with improving the current system today,
if you get on with replacing it with a better system over the next 2 decades.

davedrave

ztoical wrote: »

the laws for first provisional drivers isn't changing - they always needed someone with a full license with them so i don't see how the new laws are making it more difficult for them. As had been pointed out a number of times, other countries don't allow learner drivers to drive by themselves and they seem to manage.

its true the laws aren't changing, but previously drivers on provisionals DID drive by themselves, there's no denying that, I could round the corner and count the 17 year olds parked in their civics without licensed drivers right now. The way things are changing, people wont be able to ignore/avoid these laws, (as did the Gardai) any more.

Im interested to hear about these other countries and how their policies may differ from those in Ireland, perhaps there is a solution to the problem there.

tdc

Sorry lads, cant read through the whole thread but I keep reading "first, third and subsequent licences"

• what is the story with second provisional licences?
  
• do people that hold one have to have a full licenced driver with them?
  
• does it matter if you sat your test but failed?

MrPudding

tdc wrote: »

Sorry lads, cant read through the whole thread but I keep reading "first, third and subsequent licences"

• what is the story with second provisional licences?
• do people that hold one have to have a full licenced driver with them?
• does it matter if you sat your test but failed?

All provisional licence holders must be accompanied, once the new rules are in force. it does not matter if you sat your test and failed. Do you think that failing a simple test of competency should give the failee some additional benefits that people that have not failed should not get?

tdc

MrPudding wrote: »

Do you think that failing a simple test of competency should give the failee some additional benefits that people that have not failed should not get?

No ive just heard the subject come up a lot recently and i wasnt sure what the definitive answer was.

Wishbone Ash

tdc wrote: »

No ive just heard the subject come up a lot recently and i wasnt sure what the definitive answer was.

To date, any person with a 2nd Provisional Licence or Learner Permit for a Category B vehicle was legally entitled drive unaccompanied on a public road. That entitlement will end at midnight on Monday next.

After that date, the only Provisional Licence/Learner Permit holders who may drive unaccompanied on a public road are those who are driving vehicle in categories A, A1, M and W.

lad12

I read in the Sunday Independent today a statement from senior Garda Traffic Corps that they will not be 'cracking down hard on these new rules from tuesday'.

Here is the online story

[HTML]http://www.independent.ie/national-news/learner-drivers-to-be-spared-new-rules-crackdown-1422902.html[/HTML]

Yakult

I dont mind the law, but I just wish they would take away the 6 month minimum wait.

Its absolutly pointless imo. If your ready for a test you should be able to do it a week, a month etc. after you recieve the learner permit. Would avoid alot of hassel.


"As the final countdown to the July 1 deadline begins, senior gardai charged with clamping down on unaccompanied learner drivers have said it will be business as usual this week, as "no specific instructions" have been deployed to bring the new law into force."

Why do I have a feeling their just trying to fool people to go about their ways and then catch them?

Because if thats the case I will get awat scot free as I have a few times driven unaccompanied w/o L plates and ran into a few checkpoints and waved on. I dont exactly look too old also lol.

lol5605

R_H_C_P wrote: »

Because if thats the case I will get awat scot free as I have a few times driven unaccompanied w/o L plates and ran into a few checkpoints and waved on. I dont exactly look too old also lol.

I've been driving around every day since christmas, I'm on a learner permit got L plates up I look about 15 been stop 3 times and waved on like yourself.

--amadeus--

For work reasons a clarification was sought from local Guards about this. Official line seems to be that a "common sense" approach will be taken initially. By that I understand that someone driving alone who has a test date letter with them will probably be left be, at least for now.

A failure to properly police and enforce this law in the longer term though has got to be out of teh question, we'd be a laughing stock.

And as for the smart lads bragging about thier law breaking - I know someone in exactly the same situation who has just been landed with a €2k fine. You can be waved through as many checkpoints as you like, it only takes one guard to decide enough is enough so good luck with that.

Clarice

I'm probably being a bit thick here, the sticky says -

'A person while holding a second learner permit or second provisional licence can drive unaccompanied in the period up to 30 June 2008.'

Does this include the 30th? I've driven to work now and am worried I'm going to be hauled in on the way home!

JP Liz

tdc wrote: »

Sorry lads, cant read through the whole thread but I keep reading "first, third and subsequent licences"

• what is the story with second provisional licences?
  
• do people that hold one have to have a full licenced driver with them?
  
• does it matter if you sat your test but failed?

All Learner Permit Holders and Provisional Licence Holders (1st, 2nd and 3rd so on) must have L Plates visible and be accompanied by a Full Licenced Driver

eddiehobbs

Clarice wrote: »

I'm probably being a bit thick here, the sticky says -

'A person while holding a second learner permit or second provisional licence can drive unaccompanied in the period up to 30 June 2008.'

Does this include the 30th? I've driven to work now and am worried I'm going to be hauled in on the way home!

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0630/licence.html

Says here it comes into force at midnight tonight

Clarice

Thanks eddiehobbs!