Le Tour (with new added Poll!)

niceonetom

Cunego

a lot of us around here have read Mr. Kimmage's book, but i don't think that all of us have come away with identical attitudes. strangely it actually softened my attitude towards dopers (but not doping itself). i've accepted that it is nearly certain that all of the greats doped, and that it's a very very long time since anyone won the tour completely untainted. but i don't necessarily consider doping to be outright cheating (bare with me!) if their competition is up to the same. it's a level playing field, though the grass may be astroturf, if you get me.

i would greatly prefer if the sport was completely clean but i completely disagree with operating under the premise that suspicion is enough to condemn. there are no successful riders that are above suspicion and allegation since, to many cynics out there, success itself is enough evidence of "cheating".

even in the current draconian baby-and-bathwater climate, how many of you have any confidence that the tour will be completed without another high-profile bust?

it's a thorny one, and there's no magic solution but arbitrary and ad-hoc rule making won't solve much, just make the tour look even sillier when the next scandal breaks.

Diarmuid

Cunego

i've accepted that it is nearly certain that all of the greats doped, and that it's a very very long time since anyone won the tour completely untainted. but i don't necessarily consider doping to be outright cheating (bare with me!) if their competition is up to the same

I think LeMond was clean. And with regards to your second point, doesn't that make it a competition between the team doctors then?

niceonetom wrote: »

even in the current draconian baby-and-bathwater climate, how many of you have any confidence that the tour will be completed without another high-profile bust?

I won't be holding my breath.

Chips Lovell

Cunego

TinyExplosions wrote: »

I personally don't think Contador doped

One of the documents (Document 31) that were leaked from Puerto had a doping plan for Liberty Seguros. Contador was put down to either get nothing or the same as Jorg Jaschke, who has since confessed he was doped up to the gills at Liberty Seguros.

Contador's never been grilled on this and probably never will, since the judicial investigation has been closed down, because doping wasn't a crime in Spain at the time and the judge has said he won't hand over all the evidence to private bodies, such as cycling federations. The Spanish Cycling Federation has expressed no interest at all in investigating the matter further, which is why he, Valverde and all the others lucky enough not to get named after the initial sting will probably never have to worry about Puerto again.

TinyExplosions wrote: »

and to my mind at least, I don't think Armstrong ever did

His samples from 1999 tested positive retrospectively for EPO. Not good enough for a suspension or stripping him of the title, but still pretty damning. Read David Walsh's last book, "From Lance to Landis".

niceonetom wrote: »

i don't necessarily consider doping to be outright cheating (bare with me!) if their competition is up to the same. it's a level playing field, though the grass may be astroturf, if you get me.

Everyone doping doesn't necessarily level the playing field. Some people respond better to it than others. For example, guys with a naturally lower haemocrit will benefit most from EPO. You also have to consider that some riders would be willing to take bigger risks than others. For example, Riis was alleged to have a haemocrit of 60% when he won the Tour. There aren't many guys who'd be willing to risk that. Then you've got to consider the guys (few of them admittedly) who've never touched anything. You've got Moncoutie, who famously won't even take as much as vitamin supplements. Or before him there was Bassons, the only guy on Festina who didn't want anything to do with it.

That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy cycling. You just have to suspend your disbelief a little when you turn on the TV. It's harder to do that though when you know well what some people are up to.

I remember reading an interview with Luis Herrara, who recalled the introduction of EPO to the peloton. All of a sudden, he said, guys with fat arses were going past him like aeroplanes on climbs. It's moments like that when I stop enjoying a race and they still happen from time to time. I'm thinking of one Italian with a very fat arse for example who did implausibly well in last year's Giro, but has since been suspended. Or a few mountain stages in last year's Tour that had one or two contenders "ascending into heaven like a shot off a shovel".

Diarmuid

Cunego

el tonto wrote: »

I remember reading an interview with Luis Herrara, who recalled the introduction of EPO to the peloton. All of a sudden, he said, guys with fat arses were going past him like aeroplanes on climbs

Robert Millar said something similar to (then just retired) Pascal Simon in 92 about the widespread use of EPO. "guys climbing the mountains with calf muscles like body-builders. They ride with their mouths shut because then don't even have to breathe, and they're riding twice as fast as us"

Guess who is reading a book about Robert Millar :-)

Funkyzeit

Evans

Valverde is my choice - don't understand why Evans is the fav after Valv comfortably beat him in the D-L. - sure Valverde is not a pure climber but route doesn't look too tough...(NOTE: for them....) this year.

As for Cav winning the Green - I thought he's only cycling the week and then going into Olympic training mode?

Diarmuid

Cunego

Funkyzeit wrote: »

Valverde is my choice - don't understand why Evans is the fav after Valv comfortably beat him in the D-L. -

Well they are very close (on PaddyPower) and after Evans getting the Number 1 bib maybe the betting on him might be a bit higher.

Chips Lovell

Cunego

Funkyzeit wrote: »

don't understand why Evans is the fav after Valv comfortably beat him in the D-L

The Dauphine is a training race for these guys. For someone like Evans or Valverde, winning it is less important than honing their form. Remember, Evans came in comfortably ahead of Contador in last year's Dauphine and look what happened.

Funkyzeit

Evans

agree you can't measure D-L performance - Valverde though looked SOO comfortable

Also IMO I just think Evans might struggle to make up potential times lost to Valv in the TT's?

Chips Lovell

Cunego

Funkyzeit wrote: »

Valverde though looked SOO comfortable

I thought he looked vulernable. I though Evans and Leipheimer scared the bejesus out of him on the stage to La Toussuire with their attacks and neither would be reknowned for doing that. On a tougher stage he would have been in serious trouble.

Funkyzeit wrote: »

Also IMO I just think Evans might struggle to make up potential times lost to Valv in the TT's?

Evans is very strong TT rider in my opinion and most people would think he'd have the edge on Valverde here.

Then again, what do I know. I don't think I've called a race right yet this year.

thereturn

Evans

The tour is being shown live on weekdays on ITV4 by pressing red button on the channel. I have ITV4 as part of my other channels on Sky but there is no red button option on it. Though I have Eurosport and TG4 Ligget and Sherwan are commentating for ITV4 and would like to have it if possible. Anyone have any ideas if there is anyway of getting interactive service through ITV 4?

Funkyzeit

Evans

el tonto wrote: »

Then again, what do I know. I don't think I've called a race right yet this year.

Me neither...:( but there always a first for everything...

antomagoo

Cunego

anyone signed up to the "fantasy tour de france" on eurosports website?

http://fantasy.tour-de-france.eurosport.com/default.aspx

might be bit of a laugh to get a mini league going. (read as: I dont know anyone else who would be intrested so just seeing if any boards.ie members would be)

opps just seen a post already for this sorry!!!

Treade

So 0% of us got it right!!!

ob

Menchov

The poll is still open. I have a feeling that percentage will start to grow!

Funkyzeit

Evans

ob wrote: »

The poll is still open. I have a feeling that percentage will start to grow!

always knew he was going to win....:o