Story on Morning Ireland says Metro North is postponed

GerardKeating

Story on Morning Ireland in a few minutes says Metro North is postponed...

Run_to_da_hills

GerardKeating wrote: »

Story on Morning Ireland in a few minutes says Metro North is postponed...

One of numerous proposed projects that will get the axe. Those that live on the Cherrywood Luas line can count themselves lucky. We are now back to the bad old days of the 80ies of

markf909

GerardKeating wrote: »

Story on Morning Ireland in a few minutes says Metro North is postponed...

I think they were only reading out some newspaper quotes.

dogmatix

Bad news. I think the Government should invest heavily in transport, espicially public and rail despite the economic slowdown. Borrow if they have to. Because this sort of stuff is what I would call "investing in the country and the future".

paulm17781

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

One of numerous proposed projects that will get the axe. Those that live on the Cherrywood Luas line can count themselves lucky. We are now back to the bad old days of the 80ies of

What nonsense. :rolleyes:

dogmatix wrote:

Bad news. I think the Government should invest heavily in transport, espicially public and rail despite the economic slowdown. Borrow if they have to. Because this sort of stuff is what I would call "investing in the country and the future".

I couldn't agree more. If things really do get tough, a decent public transport system would help people get around. Our government are too hell bent on ignoring PT though.

seamus

dogmatix wrote: »

Bad news. I think the Government should invest heavily in transport, espicially public and rail despite the economic slowdown. Borrow if they have to. Because this sort of stuff is what I would call "investing in the country and the future".

Agreed. The seventies showed us what happens when you cut back public services and tear up transport lines in the name of saving money.

Rail is quite expensive, but continuing to invest in railways and urban travel will open up more corridors when the world's economy swings back up again.

A spokesperson for Irish rail made a good point re: rail freight on the radio the other day. Ireland isn't very big. It would be rare that you would need to transport anything more than 300km in this country. To that end, the time saving gained by transporting your goods by rail is offset by the relatively short distance. It just makes more sense to use trucks. Even if we put in express trains between the major urban centres, the massive cost to Irish rail to upgrade/install the infrastructure and buy new trains would never be recouped.

So although we should continue investing in rail, we also need to continue building motorways. Everywhere. As you say, borrow if we have to.

D.S.

I couldnt agree more. If we are going to continue to attract the Dells/Intels of this world to Ireland, and continue to provide employment and prosperity to this economy, then now is the time to be investing in the economy. We need to provide the platform now that will make Ireland an attractive destination for global companies once this global downturn passes. Therefore, one of the key elements of this is our transport infrastructure.

Dublin is disappointingly underserved by transport infrasture. Despite 10+ years of prosperity, we got two luas lines, and we didn't even link them up. The government need to ensure both the interconnector primarily, but also the metro projects, are funded, even if it requires borrowing.

Sponge Bob

I can't say I am surprised the 2 big Dublin projects came with a logic bomb attached.

Metro North includes the logic bomb about

"Who Is ACTUALLY RESPONSIBLE for Building St Stephens Green Station "

Is It !!??!

a) RPA
b) CIE
c) Both , ho ho ho !!
d) Neither in reality

Makes it difficult if not impossible to project the actual cost .

The fact that the most recent cost including misc contigencies has gone well over €500m a MILE makes it even messier. The Luas , even though it was way more expensive than planned, cost €50m a mile. . That was considered overpriced so what does Metro look like ??

They would be better off building the interconnector first assuming that CIE have some realistic handle on the costs thereof , which I doubt

If CIE do not have a handle but because something surely MUST be done then they would be best off building Interconnector SW-NE first and come back to Interconnector SE-NW later seeing as there is no tunneling involved .

Metro North can proceed once CIE finish their tunnel including the St Stephens Green station carcass for Metro North. The Dept of Finance would deserve to be shot if they let two lots of contractors go to war over the St Stephens Green station, period. It looks like they won't .

That itself may take until 2015 in extremis although I have been told the rest of Metro North could start maybe 2013 .

jd

Sponge Bob wrote: »

they would be best off building Interconnector SW-NE first and come back to Interconnector SE-NW later seeing as there is no tunneling involved .

Hi Bob (or Sponge??),
I'm not sure what you mean here?

Sponge Bob

jd wrote: »

Hi Bob (or Sponge??),
I'm not sure what you mean here?

The Interconnector Project at present includes all of (and not just )

Tunnel Heuston- Connolly ( ish)
New station spencer dock
Electrify Malahide Balbriggan
Electrify Heuston Hazelhatch
Rebuild Pearse
Electrify Connolly-Maynooth
Electrify Clonsilla- Dunboyne
Resignal much of the Dart .
Close Merrion Gates off .

etc etc .

If they needed to start somewhere they could

Resignal Dart north of Connolly
Electrify Malahide Balbriggan
Electrify Heuston Hazelhatch
Tunnel Heuston- Connolly ( ish)
New station spencer dock

This runs on a SW-NE axis .

They could come back to the rest of it later trending to run SE-NW ( Greystones - Maynooth)

Sponge Bob

Also remember that if a Minimal Interconnector was built as I described above and if this Dublin Airport City Project were to go ahead then the best way to service that with public transport would be with a Heavy Rail spur off the northern section of the Dart first to the Airport City which will not be near MN and then to The Airport itself and then to Swords , underground for max three miles and with the depot over near Baldoyle.

Park and Ride would not be in Lissenhall but around Balbriggan .

That's Metro North gone so but the complexities of the St Stephens Green station project mean that the Interconnector has to do their bit of it first .

Finance have taken it from Transport becuase Dempsey is an incompetent anyway and if he cannot stop the RPA and CIE squabbling over Broadstone , cg The Battle Of Broadstone from January , then imagine the expensive shambolic mess with 2 projects building the one station on the Green .

Something must be done now about Dublin even if only the Minimal Interconnector .

trellheim

Awesome, I did try hinting at some of this months ago.


Spongebob - Brilliant reporting from the frontlines

the funniest thing is only a very small amount of people realize the utter upheaval that is coming

If the Interconnector does go first, as all the above seems to indicate then doesn't that mean Metro North out of Transport 21 and into the next cycle ? Should save a few bob in any event

Sponge Bob

Looks to me like the RPA is to be put into stasis , they have no funded projects in the pipeline bar the allegedly funded Citywest Luas which, in reality, has promises of funding from property developers who cannot sell their property in Citywest anyway !

I reckon we will get part of the Interconnector in the Transport 21 window and thats that.

jank

In fairness 5 Billion or whatever it is seems like a lot, and it would be a hard sell for the rest of the country.

hahayouwallies

This forum is normally 99% a paranoid TOSH fest but even youze have surpassed yourselves today. Making up your rumours and then flying off into orbit foaming at the mouth about nothing.
Metro North will be going ahead as scheduled.
Wonder sometimes if this 'commuting and transport' forum is headquartered in the central mental hospital. All due respect to them, mind.

Victor

hahayouwallies wrote: »

Wonder sometimes if this 'commuting and transport' forum is headquartered in the central mental hospital.

Well, it is right next to the Luas. :pac:

Sponge Bob

hahayouwallies wrote: »

This forum is normally 99% a paranoid TOSH fest but even youze have surpassed yourselves today.

Metro North will be going ahead as scheduled.

Ahhhhhhh, the RPA finally sends in the cavalry to fight them pesky injuns :cool: on the h-interyoke .

I suspect we won't ever see this poster again after today but could they explain this bit during the all too short time they are here .

a)Who the prime agency will be on the St Stephens Green Station as in Is it the RPA or CIE ??

b)Whether a protocol exists to allow concurrent access to the St Stephens Green Station to contractors employed by RPA and CIE

c) Who made the decision as to who the prime agent will be ??

d) When was this decision made ???

e) Does the other agency accept that decision ???

and of course if there is no prime agent and no protocol then only one of the contracts can go ahead in teh near term ( by 2011) being Metro North OR Interconnect .

Like would you let Galway County Council go to work on the N6 while it was being built by a contractor ??? I should think not

Sadly I do not expect lucidity in response to this post

hahayouwallies

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Ahhhhhhh, the RPA finally sends in the cavalry to fight them pesky injuns :cool: on the h-interyoke .

I suspect we won't ever see this poster again after today but could they explain this bit during the all too short time they are here .

a)Who the prime agency will be on the St Stephens Green Station as in Is it the RPA or CIE ??

b)Whether a protocol exists to allow concurrent access to the St Stephens Green Station to contractors employed by RPA and CIE

c) Who made the decision as to who the prime agent will be ??

d) When was this decision made ???

e) Does the other agency accept that decision ???

and of course if there is no prime agent and no protocol then only one of the contracts can go ahead in teh near term ( by 2011) being Metro North OR Interconnect .

Like would you let Galway County Council go to work on the N6 while it was being built by a contractor ??? I should think not



Sadly I do not expect lucidity in response to this post

Sure you're grand spongey. They are very wicked sometimes these railway people. Relax and get yourself a glass of milk. Medication will be around shortly. :D

Metrobest

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Ahhhhhhh, the RPA finally sends in the cavalry to fight them pesky injuns :cool: on the h-interyoke .

I suspect we won't ever see this poster again after today but could they explain this bit during the all too short time they are here .

a)Who the prime agency will be on the St Stephens Green Station as in Is it the RPA or CIE ??

b)Whether a protocol exists to allow concurrent access to the St Stephens Green Station to contractors employed by RPA and CIE

c) Who made the decision as to who the prime agent will be ??

d) When was this decision made ???

e) Does the other agency accept that decision ???

and of course if there is no prime agent and no protocol then only one of the contracts can go ahead in teh near term ( by 2011) being Metro North OR Interconnect .

Like would you let Galway County Council go to work on the N6 while it was being built by a contractor ??? I should think not

Sadly I do not expect lucidity in response to this post

The deal is that RPA will do the dig under the Green and as part of that the contractors will build into the station a platform for the Dart underground, which is coming later. The two agencies will - shockingly - work together. Yes, it can happen.

Read up on the facts before you spout nonsense.

OTK

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The fact that the most recent cost including misc contigencies has gone well over €500m a MILE makes it even messier. The Luas , even though it was way more expensive than planned, cost €50m a mile. . That was considered overpriced so what does Metro look like ??

I think this thinking is a little muddled. You are comparing the cash price of Luas against the total cost of credit for MN. You may as well compare the cash price of one house against the cost of repaying the mortage over 30 years on another.

Luas was built for 775m cash. The 5bn price being touted for Metro North is based on the build cost plus interest added up over 30 years. Estimate for MN was something like 2.2/2.3 bn. 30 years interest at 6% adds another 2.6 bn. The repayment would be around 160m/year total over 30 years.

Metro costs more than Luas but it is fully grade-separated, higher speed, capacity and frequency. It will attract more passengers per km. So Metro costs should be more like 4-5X Luas costs rather than 10X as you have estimated. Capacity will also be 4X Luas.

The cost benefit from the green line will be hard to repeat as it relied on an existing lengthy mostly segragated, disused alignment. Red line is far worse than the green line, and the recent DTO figures show it has only managed to switch commuters from buses, whereas the green line has increased the total number of journeys on the Dundrum-city corridor. The difference is speed- 25km/h on the green line is attractive. 15km/h on the red line is not. MN will do 30km/h plus.

paulm17781

OTK wrote: »

the green line has increased the total number of journeys on the Dundrum-city corridor.

In fairness; Dundrum has seen major development, the new shopping centre generates more cash than every retail centre in Ireland barring Dublin & Cork cities. That would have helped the ridership. There is also the huge development around Dundrum & Sandyford.

I'm am hoping this is all nonsense and fear mongering. SB seems quite informed and in my opinion, is generally on the money when it comes to Telecom's issues. That said Metrobest raised some interesting points.

Dublin definitely needs the IC and MN, I am hoping (and maybe being naive) that there will be some form of DTA overseeing the entire project at this stage. None the less, this is Ireland...

Sponge Bob

Thank you Metrobest for taking the time to attempt to answer the 5 questions I posed.

Lets recap I asked .

a)Who the prime agency will be on the St Stephens Green Station as in Is it the RPA or CIE ??

Metrobest wrote: »

The deal is that RPA will do the dig under the Green and as part of that the contractors will build into the station a platform for the Dart underground, which is coming later.

A sort of answer for Question A .

The RPA will be the prime agent . When was this information released into the public domain and where can I read the announcement ?

Now for question b

b)Whether a protocol exists to allow concurrent access to the St Stephens Green Station to contractors employed by RPA and CIE

Metrobest wrote: »

The two agencies will - shockingly - work together. Yes, it can happen.

Read up on the facts before you spout nonsense.

I would be delighted to have written confirmation that such an agreement exists. Read up where?

When was THIS agreement ( or its outline) EVER published in the public domain by Transport or Finance or the RPA or by CIE ???

can you answer questions c d and e as well please in the interests of completism .

c) Who made the decision as to who the prime agent will be ??

d) When was this decision made ???

e) Does the other agency accept that decision ???

Thanks Metrobest

SB .

Metrobest

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Thank you Metrobest for taking the time to attempt to answer the 5 questions I posed.

Lets recap I asked .

a)Who the prime agency will be on the St Stephens Green Station as in Is it the RPA or CIE ??



A sort of answer for Question A .

The RPA will be the prime agent . When was this information released into the public domain and where can I read the announcement ?

Now for question b

b)Whether a protocol exists to allow concurrent access to the St Stephens Green Station to contractors employed by RPA and CIE



I would be delighted to have written confirmation that such an agreement exists. Read up where?

When was THIS agreement ( or its outline) EVER published in the public domain by Transport or Finance or the RPA or by CIE ???

can you answer questions c d and e as well please in the interests of completism .

c) Who made the decision as to who the prime agent will be ??

d) When was this decision made ???

e) Does the other agency accept that decision ???

Thanks Metrobest

SB .

Questions C, D, E are largely not relevent.

Concurrent access won´t be an issue as the Metro North station will be operational by the time CIE gets around to kitting out its dart underground station and tunnel beneath.

The initial fear was that RPA would dig its station and then IE would come along and rip the whole thing apart a few years later. Rest assured that won´t happen, as has been publicly stated by the RPA´s chief. Use Google.ie to find the relevent quotes from him. It´s not my job to educate you on this matter.

To know more about the background to metro north you are advised at a bare minimum to read all the reports prepared for the Oireachtas Comittee on transport, the content of RPA website regarding Metro and archives of the many discussions that have been had regarding it on this forum.

spacetweek

hahayouwallies wrote: »

This forum is normally 99% a paranoid TOSH fest but even youze have surpassed yourselves today. Making up your rumours and then flying off into orbit foaming at the mouth about nothing.
Metro North will be going ahead as scheduled.
Wonder sometimes if this 'commuting and transport' forum is headquartered in the central mental hospital. All due respect to them, mind.

Thanks Haha, I was thinking the very same.

Lads stop reading sensationalist speculation in our silly newspapers and running with it. Nothing's been cancelled.

Sponge Bob

Metrobest wrote: »

The initial fear was that RPA would dig its station and then IE would come along and rip the whole thing apart a few years later. Rest assured that won´t happen, as has been publicly stated by the RPA´s chief. Use Google.ie to find the relevent quotes from him. It´s not my job to educate you on this matter.

Aw OK , so no linkees . Education optional. I will give you a bit of RPA history with linkees so .

This goes part of the way to explaining that I do not believe in the RPA. I do not believe that the RPA which has organised at most 10km of real live Luas building in the past 6-7 years has the confidence of the Department of Finance, somehow.

Nor does it have the confidence of the Dept of Transport which does not help.

Therefore I believe that Metro north is for the chop. Too scary a project in the post Celtic Tiger years .

Let me remind you all of the sad history of Integrated Ticketing as tasked to the RPA over 6 years back , a selection.

February 2005

Linkee

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0597/D.0597.200502080205.html

Mr Cullen

In March 2002, the Railway Procurement Agency, RPA, was given statutory responsibility under the Transport (Railway Infrastructure) Act 2001 (Additional Functions) (Integrated Ticketing) Order 2002 for the delivery of an integrated ticketing system. The contactless smartcard-based integrated ticketing system, which will enable a passenger to use a single ticket on one or more [519] scheduled public transport services, by road and by rail, irrespective of the transport operator involved, is being developed by the RPA and will be introduced on a phased basis, initially in the Dublin area.

A first step was the launch in April 2004, in conjunction with the RPA, of smartcards by a private operator, Morton’s Coaches, on its services. Another important step will be the launch of smartcards on Luas services which, I have been informed by the RPA, will take place shortly.



The RPA expect that Dublin Bus and possibly some additional private operators will follow with smartcards on services this year, with the DART expected to follow next year. By early 2006, passengers will be able to travel on both bus and Luas services in Dublin using one smartcard. Integration using smartcards with other operators is projected to follow shortly thereafter.


The delivery costs of the fully integrated ticketing project are currently estimated to be €29.6 million for the total project including a 10% contingency cost. This funding is included in my Department’s capital envelope.



Procurement procedures and processes are matters solely for the RPA.

November 2005

Linkee

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0610/D.0610.200511240071.html

Mr. Cullen:

The Railway Procurement Agency, RPA, is the statutory body responsible for integrated ticketing. Following an inconclusive procurement process earlier this year, the RPA submitted proposals for a revised procurement strategy to my Department. These proposals are under discussion and will determine a revised target implementation process and timescale for the phased roll-out of integrated ticketing. While integrated ticketing will be introduced on a phased basis, I understand from the RPA that it is unlikely that the full integrated system will be in place by the end of 2006.


November 2007

Linkee

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2007/11/18/story28328.asp

(The Original pre RPA) 2002 Deadline came and went without much progress, responsibility for the project was passed to the RPA and the deadline was fixed at 2005 and then pushed back to 2006.

However, the 2006 deadline evaporated when the RPA was forced to abandon its procurement process after it failed to find a suitable supplier, partly because of confusion created by the fact that some individual operators had begun sourcing their own smart card systems.

The RPA was forced to effectively go back to the drawing board, which pushed the project back to its current 2010 deadline.

Thats a €50m project.

I dread to think of a €5bn project , over 30 years or otherwise.

Of course I don't want you to think that I am trying to educate you here Metrobest , that would be rude of me and being rude is not my job ....not that I work in the Transport arena or ever have.

trellheim

oh dear I note hahayouwallies is banned [ the banlist says "Re-reg to avoid forum ban." ]

Ham'nd'egger

Not to either support or attack Spongebob's last comment but a point on LUAS and the RPA to make that is valid. Virtually all of the design work, route selection options and early surveying of said routes was done by Irish Rail; the RPA's role in the technical side of LUAS construction was minimal. It would follow that the technical skills of the RPA and experience of building railways would be far less than that of Irish Rail.

Sponge Bob

Not dissing IR and their design team but the Dept of Finance is mortallly afeared of a turf war breaking out if MN and Interconnect are allowed to proceed together.

The merits of Interconnector are totally clear to me..in its entirety

The merits of MN are that Dublin Airport absolutely needs a proper rapid transit link

No other public transport project in the state should have priority over EITHER as long as they are delivered on time and on budget by competent project managers.

trellheim

Dept of Finance is mortallly afeared of a turf war breaking out if MN and Interconnect are allowed to proceed together

Yes, the Battle of Broadstone was an edifying spectacle. seeing as neither are being folded into the DTA we'll be seeing a tricorne struggle with the DOT looking on, throwing in fivers from time to time to keep the dancers wearily moving.

Am I wrong in seeing SSG Luas station closed for 5 years so ?

Ham'nd'egger

trellheim wrote: »

Yes, the Battle of Broadstone was an edifying spectacle. seeing as neither are being folded into the DTA we'll be seeing a tricorne struggle with the DOT looking on, throwing in fivers from time to time to keep the dancers wearily moving.

Am I wrong in seeing SSG Luas station closed for 5 years so ?

The odd thing about the Broadstone affray is that property law would likely side with Irish Rail/CIE as it is land held by the company that it took ownership of legally. A land bank of it's type would cost fortunes to engineer were RPA to source one on the private market and CIE knows as such; to hand over same without any compensation or allowance would be theft of a high order.

Metrobest

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Not dissing IR and their design team but the Dept of Finance is mortallly afeared of a turf war breaking out if MN and Interconnect are allowed to proceed together.

The merits of Interconnector are totally clear to me..in its entirety

The merits of MN are that Dublin Airport absolutely needs a proper rapid transit link

No other public transport project in the state should have priority over EITHER as long as they are delivered on time and on budget by competent project managers.

See, if you´d read up on Metro North you´d know that the aiport will handle only 20% of projected passengers, in line with most EU metros. Don´t you think there is "merit" in a transport corridor that links universities with +/- 40,000 students, Ireland´s busiest city centre, Ireland´s national airport, a hospital, a growing new city in Swords, business centres and park and ride at M50, and established inner suburbs of Dublin, not to mention integrates with commuter rail at two interchanges.

If any metro line was capable of doing this much good for a European city people would be marching on the streets demanding it be built quicker. In Ireland, Liveline rings off the hook with people complaining about it!

Years of work and money has already been invested in Metro North. It´s economic and social importance is immense. Yet some still are not convinced Dublin needs it. Why? Do they believe Dublin would be a better since in 2015 with no metro North and a few billion extra in the bank? Or that we should never have built Luas or Port Tunnel, two other expensive projects?