Torres getting subbed off!

ShoulderChip

I am not simply referring to tonights match against Russia here but over the long-term.

this year Torres has been subbed off 19 times for Liverpool*

He has also been subbed off 26 times in 36 times for Spain**

A number of times when he has been subbed off he does not look all
that happy about it.

Does he suffer from fitness problems?
or does he go stale after missing a few opportunities?

I don't think it is either of these so do ye have any theories?


*
http://www.football.co.uk/liverpool/players/fernando_torres_103351.shtml
Starts Goals Subs on Subs off Mins Played Red Yellow
FA CUP 1 0 0 1 73 0 0
Premiership 29 24 4 13 2541 0 5
Champions League 10 6 1 5 887 0 1
League Cup 1 3 0 0 90 0 0
Totals 41 33 5 19 3591 0 6


**
http://fourfourtwo.com/blogs/laligaloca/archive/2008/06/13/spain-in-denial-over-torres-tantrum.aspx
+ the 3 games since

Vokes

Its not rocket science. He's usually a lone striker.

ShoulderChip

so is drogba who has been subbed off 6 times this year.
adebayor 11/40

whatawaster

and aragones is quite mad anyway.

But perhaps with Villa out of the final he wanted to keep Torres fresh. Only two days rest after all.

Tusky

Hes usually subbed for Liverpool once the game has been won. Its disgraceful how often Aragones subs him off though. Specially considering Iniesta has been much worse than him in almost every game.

Mr. Presentable

I was going to start a similar thread. Does anyone else think the EPL flatters this player? He hasn't looked quite the boy wonder Sky Sports make him out to be. (Nor has C Ronaldo looked so good either) Maybe they're on their holidays

turly

Tusky wrote: »

Specially considering Iniesta has been much worse than him in almost every game.

Iniesta just got given the Man of the Match award on Spanish TV.

Zaph

Tusky wrote: »

Hes usually subbed for Liverpool once the game has been won. Its disgraceful how often Aragones subs him off though. Specially considering Iniesta has been much worse than him in almost every game.

Huh? That's the first full game Iniesta has played in the tournament, he was taken off after an hour in the other four.

kryogen

Tusky wrote: »

Hes usually subbed for Liverpool once the game has been won. Its disgraceful how often Aragones subs him off though. Specially considering Iniesta has been much worse than him in almost every game.

He may just want to keep him fresh tbh, he doesnt have a whole host of striking options from the bench, then again he is just a mad bastard and who knows why he takes him off

you could add Silva to the list of guys who have been ****e and stayed on too. dunno how he never gets subbed, or starts for that matter

---

Senna

---

---

Xavi

---

Iniesta---

---

Fabregas

---

with the advanced 3 swapping around as the game goes on however they feel like it!...............

but for the final since Villa is supposedly not playing, according to Rte

it will be Senna-Xavi-Iniesta-Fabregas-Silva in the midfield anyway i imagine with Torres up top on his own, then again you wouldnt be overly surprised if Guiza started!

Racing Flat

nipplenuts wrote: »

I Does anyone else think the EPL flatters this player?

No. He was quality in Spain, quality in the last World Cup and I think he's done well in this tournament, just not at his very best.

Bubs101

Torres was terrible today, he got into positions but didn't bring his shooting boots at all. He missed from 6 yards today. Not exactly on form. If your lone striker hasn't really come close to scoring and has fluffed his two best shots and you have another 25 goal scorer who has hit the onion bag in the tournament already then you should bring him on. Aragones was right

monkey9

You can't compare the Torres of Liverpool to the Torres of Spain. Aragones is a fool. Whenever El Nino has been subbed at Liverpool, it's because the game is won and he's done the business. As he walks off, he gets a standing ovation and feels satisfied. Compare that to Spain!!!
And as has been pointed out before, Torres is the kind of player that, as a striker,may be quiet, but you know he can still provide the killer finish. Aragones took him off against Italy midway or less into the second half. Ridiculous!!! Anyone who watched the 2nd leg of the Champions League match against Arsenal at Anfield would have seen a Torres, quiet for the majority of the match, get one chance, swivel and turn ala Rushy and bury it!!! Yet Aragones subs him!! As i said before, Spain will win inspite off, and not because of, Aragones

Mr Alan

i wanna say something in this thread, but have no idea wat to say.

i dont like this thread.

Bubs101

monkey9 wrote: »

You can't compare the Torres of Liverpool to the Torres of Spain. Aragones is a fool. Whenever El Nino has been subbed at Liverpool, it's because the game is won and he's done the business. As he walks off, he gets a standing ovation and feels satisfied. Compare that to Spain!!!
And as has been pointed out before, Torres is the kind of player that, as a striker,may be quiet, but you know he can still provide the killer finish. Aragones took him off against Italy midway or less into the second half. Ridiculous!!! Anyone who watched the 2nd leg of the Champions League match against Arsenal at Anfield would have seen a Torres, quiet for the majority of the match, get one chance, swivel and turn ala Rushy and bury it!!! Yet Aragones subs him!! As i said before, Spain will win inspite off, and not because of, Aragones

Have you ever seen Guiza? I think it's impossible for people to criticize him if they haven't. Also, Torres is **** when not at Anfield

Mr Alan

**** when not at anfield?

Like his cracking goal in the Euros,the world cup,Stamford Bridge,San Siro? Those kinda places? :rolleyes:

this thread will turn into a place for people to have a dig at Torres.

In answer to your question OP, there is nothing wrong with Fernandos fitness, he is a 24 year old athlete, his fitness is superb and he has a great engine.

monkey9

Bubs101 wrote: »

Have you ever seen Guiza? I think it's impossible for people to criticize him if they haven't. Also, Torres is **** when not at Anfield

Simple question. Who's the better striker

titan18

If you look at Torres amounts of goals he got in La Liga,its a huge difference to the player he is at Liverpool.He's overrated as everybody makes him out as one of the world's best striker and expect him to finish everything.But he's very inconsistent and can miss some very simple chances but then score some wonderful goals.

I would play Villa over Torres any day,and it was right for him to have been brought off tonight

mike65

As stated at Liverpool the game is won when he goes as a rule, as for Spain well he and Aregones have never hit it off it seems. Today the while his replacement got a goal (which he took really well), I reckon if Fernando had Fabregas to work off he'd have got on the scoresheet tonight. I hope he and Cesc start the final but would nearly bet on neither of them doing so. Of course if Spain win the cup then people will say the manager is a genius. Go figure!

Mike.

Mr Alan

titan18 wrote: »

He's overrated as everybody makes him out as one of the world's best striker and expect him to finish everything.

Emmmm, he is.

titan18 wrote: »

can miss some very simple chances but then score some wonderful goals.

Emmmm, like all other great strikers you mean?

An Citeog

monkey9 wrote: »

Simple question. Who's the better striker

It's fairly obvious tbh, but which one of them actually scored tonight? The Spanish have huge strength in depth in their squad and nobody's irreplaceable. I thought Torres was fairly poor tonight, his shooting was off and he spent half the game moaning at the referee. Just because some people on here have never heard of Dani Güiza doesn't make him a donkey or shít. He was phenomenal in La Liga this season and has earned the right to play for his country, just as Torres has.

I don't see where the Iniesta-Torres comparison comes in either.

Bubs101

monkey9 wrote: »

Simple question. Who's the better striker

Impossible to say, I've only seen Guiza twice.


@ Mr. Alan, it wasn't a go at Torres, but I remember hearing that only 4 of his premiership goals came away from home

Mr Alan

An Citeog wrote: »

It's fairly obvious tbh, but which one of them actually scored tonight?

so Silva and Xavi should definately both start ahead of Fabregas as they both scored tonight?

you logic is flawed.

An Citeog wrote: »

he spent half the game moaning at the referee.

ARE YOU TAKING THE PISS?! he conducted himself excellently this evening despite a couple of silly decisions going against him, players are allowed "look" at the ref, that doesnt count as moaning at the ref.

no arms being thrown in the air, no punching the ground, no chasing the ref, he was disappointed about a couple of decisions, but no moaning. you are obviously confusing him with some other players from this tournament.

99.9% of the time, Torres conducts himself excellently. he should be applauded for that.

Mr Alan

Bubs101 wrote: »

@ Mr. Alan, it wasn't a go at Torres, but I remember hearing that only 4 of his premiership goals came away from home

the vast majority of his goals game away from Anfield alright. but he scored important goals away from home incl semi final of CL and in the San Siro.

Just saying he is ****e away from Anfield is a ****ing stupid thing to say.

he scored over 30 in his debut season with a team, in a new league, with a team that struggled for part of the season.

wat more do people want?

kryogen

mike65 wrote: »

I reckon if Fernando had Fabregas to work off he'd have got on the scoresheet tonight.

did you miss the part where Fabregas came on after 30 minutes? i thik Torres had him to work off then no?

not having a go at him particularly.

oobydooby

Torres certainly looks much better for Liverpool. He's still brilliant for spain though. I'm not too worried if he doesn't play the full 90 minutes, Spain's squad is excellent and there's less chance of Torres getting injured if he's on the bench.

I'm no fan of Aragones but he's getting results and even if his Torres decisions are strange, his use of Fabregas is baffling. Anyway, Spain were great to watch tonight...

Xavi6

Mr Alan wrote: »

In answer to your question OP, there is nothing wrong with Fernandos fitness, he is a 24 year old athlete, his fitness is superb and he has a great arse

mike65

kryogen wrote: »

did you miss the part where Fabregas came on after 30 minutes? i thik Torres had him to work off then no?

They got more tonight its true, but I think they need to be the constant choice a la Gerrard/Torres. It might take a few games to gell fully, and should be noted that Torres was well handled by the Russian CBs who gave him no real room to work with, while they completely forgot to spot Xabi strolling through the between them for his goal.

Result - Torres considered poor and Xabi brill.

Mike.

Xavi6

mike65 wrote: »

Xavi brill

Spot on their Mike. Post of the year.

An Citeog

Mr Alan wrote: »

so Silva and Xavi should definately both start ahead of Fabregas as they both scored tonight?

you logic is flawed.

I never suggested that Güiza should start the next match. All I'm saying is that Torres isn't unsubstitutable and for people to be getting outraged at that is fairly pathetic imo. I thought Torres had a poor game tonight and Aragones was right to bring Güiza on. He scored a goal aswell, which vindicated his manager's decision.

As for Fabregas starting the final, if Villa is out, Aragones wont have that big of a selection headache. He's done well coming on as a sub but I'd till rate Xavi and Iniesta as better players than him. Just my personal opinion though.

Mr Alan wrote:

ARE YOU TAKING THE PISS?! he conducted himself excellently this evening despite a couple of silly decisions going against him, players are allowed "look" at the ref, that doesnt count as moaning at the ref.

no arms being thrown in the air, no punching the ground, no chasing the ref, he was disappointed about a couple of decisions, but no moaning. you are obviously confusing him with some other players from this tournament.

99.9% of the time, Torres conducts himself excellently. he should be applauded for that.

I agree that he normally conducts himself well on the pitch but I thought he acted like a bit of a spoilt brat in the first half. There was one incident in particular where he wanted a foul given and when it wasn't, he just sat on the ground complaining to the ref ala Ronaldo.

Mr Alan

An Citeog wrote: »

I agree that he normally conducts himself well on the pitch but I thought he acted like a bit of a spoilt brat in the first half. There was one incident in particular where he wanted a foul given and when it wasn't, he just sat on the ground complaining to the ref ala Ronaldo.

emmm unless you provide me a video link, i'm going with you having made that incident up.

the incident which i think you are refering to is when him and a defender were going for the ball in the box and both went down.

torres got up straight away and smiled at the ref cause he gave a free out for nothing.

please dont compare Torres behaviour on the pitch with that spoilt portugeese brat.

mike65

Xavi6 - Xabi/Xavi, its all Zeds!

Mike.

Xavi6

mike65 wrote: »

Xavi6 - Xabi/Xavi, its all Zeds!

Mike.

Lol well the reason it's Xavi is cause he's from Catalunya. If he was from the Basque region it'd be Xabi as in Xabi Alonso.

monkey9

An Citeog wrote: »

I never suggested that Güiza should start the next match. All I'm saying is that Torres isn't unsubstitutable and for people to be getting outraged at that is fairly pathetic imo. I thought Torres had a poor game tonight and Aragones was right to bring Güiza on. He scored a goal aswell, which vindicated his manager's decision.

As for Fabregas starting the final, if Villa is out, Aragones wont have that big of a selection headache. He's done well coming on as a sub but I'd till rate Xavi and Iniesta as better players than him. Just my personal opinion though.



I agree that he normally conducts himself well on the pitch but I thought he acted like a bit of a spoilt brat in the first half. There was one incident in particular where he wanted a foul given and when it wasn't, he just sat on the ground complaining to the ref ala Ronaldo.

Please don't ever, ever compare Torrres to Ronaldo!! i know some people will attempt to, but Torres is so much classier on and off the pitch, i honestly don't think it needs stating!!

Boggles

monkey9 wrote: »

Please don't ever, ever compare Torrres to Ronaldo!!

Your Right! Ronaldo ever day of the week, proven winner, Torrres (even with 3 r's) has won fúck all!

Arigones is a poor manager, apartently he only plays Torres because he is pressured to.

If he had any sort of bollix he would have made the decision last night of dropping him and playing Fabergas.

Mr Alan

we're talking about his attitude.

as a big thick corkonian bouncer said to me the other weekend, "jog on".

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

we're talking about his attitude.

How Noble. :rolleyes: I'll lace my sneakers!!

mike65

Is Boggles going for Charmer of the Year award?

Mike.

Boggles

mike65 wrote: »

Is Boggles going for Charmer of the Year award?

Mike.

No.

Boggles.

Mr Alan

mike65 wrote: »

Is Boggles going for Charmer of the Year award?

Mike.

He is the manc version of me.

When I'm hyper.

And feeling a little less intelligent.

Mr. Presentable

Racing Flat wrote: »

No. He was quality in Spain, quality in the last World Cup and I think he's done well in this tournament, just not at his very best.

Nipplenuts was not saying Torres ain't quality, but maybe not the saviour of the universe he's painted to be.

monkey9

nipplenuts wrote: »

Nipplenuts was not saying Torres ain't quality, but maybe not the saviour of the universe he's painted to be.

No-one is saying he's a saviour. The arguement is that Torres is being treated like sh!te by Aragones and to be taking him off when he can score at any moment no matter how quiet he is is ridiculous

Boggles

monkey9 wrote: »

No-one is saying he's a saviour. The arguement is that Torres is being treated like sh!te by Aragones and to be taking him off when he can score at any moment no matter how quiet he is is ridiculous

He brought on a striker that did actually score. Was he wrong?

--amadeus--

Saviour of the universe may be going a litle to far but:

• Joined Atlético Madrid aged 11 after scoring 55 goals in a season
• Atlético sent an U-15 team to a Europe wide tournament, which they won and Torres was voted best in Europe at his age level
• Made his full debut for Atlético in 2001 aged 17 and scored his first senior goal a week later
• At 19 he was named club captain, led his team to UEFA cup final
• Has appeared in Euro 2004, WS 2006 and now Euro 2008
• 82 goals in 214 league games for Atlético
• Best debut season of any foreign striker in the EPL
• First LFC player since Fowler to score 20+ league goals in a season
• Equalled Roger Hunt's record of scoring in 8 consecutive Anfield games
• 33 goals in 47 games for LFC
• Important goals scored away from home in ECL including LFC.tv goal of the season away to Marseille, not to mention scoring in the San Siro

Not bad for a 24 year old...

Boggles

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Saviour of the universe may be going a litle to far but:

• Joined Atlético Madrid aged 11 after scoring 55 goals in a season
• Atlético sent an U-15 team to a Europe wide tournament, which they won and Torres was voted best in Europe at his age level
• Made his full debut for Atlético in 2001 aged 17 and scored his first senior goal a week later
• At 19 he was named club captain, led his team to UEFA cup final
• Has appeared in Euro 2004, WS 2006 and now Euro 2008
• 82 goals in 214 league games for Atlético
• Best debut season of any foreign striker in the EPL
• First LFC player since Fowler to score 20+ league goals in a season
• Equalled Roger Hunt's record of scoring in 8 consecutive Anfield games
• 33 goals in 47 games for LFC
• Important goals scored away from home in ECL including LFC.tv goal of the season away to Marseille, not to mention scoring in the San Siro

Not bad for a 24 year old...

Not bad at all, still no Ronaldo thou.

gixerfixer

Bubs101 wrote: »

Torres was terrible today, he got into positions but didn't bring his shooting boots at all. He missed from 6 yards today. Not exactly on form. If your lone striker hasn't really come close to scoring and has fluffed his two best shots and you have another 25 goal scorer who has hit the onion bag in the tournament already then you should bring him on. Aragones was right

Do you watch football much at all? Completely stupid comment.Torres has played a blinder in the tournament

gucci

Boggles wrote: »

Not bad at all, still no Ronaldo thou.

Thankfully

colly10

nipplenuts wrote: »

I was going to start a similar thread. Does anyone else think the EPL flatters this player? He hasn't looked quite the boy wonder Sky Sports make him out to be. (Nor has C Ronaldo looked so good either) Maybe they're on their holidays

Not going to discuss Ronaldo. The style of football that Spain play does not really suit torres, they play mostly a slow buildup through the midfield, when they're at this the opposition tends to drop alot deeper and this reduces the space available to play a ball through to him. He has aslo bee crowded out in this tournement.
I think Aragones (sp?) isn't the best anyway, Torres is a confidence player and you can see that being subbed is affecting him, he feels he has to score and is under pressure, he is normally very cool but I could see him rushing last night.
You would also have to question the time he chose to sub him, 5 minutes after Torres came off the russian back line began to push forward more, the space that was created would have been perfect for Torres.
As for the talk of him not being up to it, the prem is not a weak league and he has done it in the CL (to Liverpools style with Gerrard knowing how to feed him). The only defence in the prem that really seem to boos him is Chelsea's and he has said himself that he rates Carvalio (sp?) as the best defender in the prem

Boggles

gixerfixer wrote: »

Do you watch football much at all? Completely stupid comment.Torres has played a blinder in the tournament

Are we watching the same tournament??

Words like Banjo and Donkeys arsé spring to mind!

Mr Alan

he has played better than the best player in the world did in the tournament.

that'll do for me.

event

honestly, i dont really see the issue here

he was subbed in the first game, wrongly probably but they were 2-0 up at the time. Fabregas came on, set up one goal and scored another. This vindicated the managers decision.

in the second game, he played 90 minutes and scored a goal.

In the third game he didnt play

In the fourth game he was subbed wrongly, should have stayed on.

last night he was subbed and his replacement scored.

So he has been subbed 3 times and in two of those times, the guy who came on has scored.

Im sorry to say, that if rafa did this, he would be seen as a tactical genius, much like against chelsea when he brought on babel. Most people here criticised it but a lot of pool fans defended it, as babel scored. Whats the difference here lads?

BTW, i dont have any issue with torres, i think he's class and personally i wouldnt take him off, but the decision has been vindicated.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

he has played better than the best player in the world did in the tournament.

that'll do for me.

Arshavin?