Age Requirements for the AGS

TheNog

The current minimum age requirements for the AGS is 18yrs which I think is way to low. Most people of 18 yrs even up to 22yrs are too immature for a job of this scale with the responsibility and the horrific experiences that we can be faced.

I joined up when I was 30yrs old and being in the college with 18+ yr olds where some of them came straight out of secondary school or college made me realise that some of them had never had a full time job before. Granted these were in the minority but why would the AGS, keeping in mind the powers we hold, employ a person with no work of life experience?

What do you think?

Fyr.Fytr

I agree but it is a dim prospect for me as an 18 y/o, but ill get my 4 years of college done then work a bit or travel or something before heading down to Templemore

eroo

Well you could say the same about the Fire Brigade and the Defence Forces(17),as well as allowing people into med school at 17/18.The fact is,everyone is different and will respond differently to situations.Granted that means we might not have a weight of experience under our belts but that doesn't would not make good Gardai.I know of one 19y/o Garda who is a fine Garda.
If your going to go into having people working in stressful jobs at 18,and how it shouldn't be allowed,then a can of worms will be opened.Why let an 18y/o do security in HMV?He could potentially have to deal with a stressful,life threatning situ,such as being assaulted.
An 18y/o soldier going to Chad will face a tougher daily life than a Garda here in Ireland.He/she could be killed at any time;may come across refugees in malnourished state;and may witness his/her buddies being killed.Does that mean they can't handle it?No,most can.

If we're speaking of maturity,look at some current Gardai.A local traffic Garda here in Limerick known as 'Robocop'(because he used to catch so many people breaking road laws) was arrested last week for drink driving!!Or maybe that case of a young man being allegedly assaulted by Gardai in front of his mother a few months ago was itself immature and brought about by immaturity.It started because one of the Gardai had gotten into a fist fight with the man while off duty.Does that sound mature??

Finally,at 18 we are legally allowed to vote,and are recognised by the State as adults.If I can vote and am recognised as an adult,am I not entitled to the same job as any other adult?Or am I discriminated against because of the my age?

I would like to point out that most cases involving Gardai being prosecuted,the Gardai themselves are in their 30's or 40's.Young people can actually be mature believe it or not.AGS,PSNI,DF,FB and HSE seem to think so.Also,does one not become mature through experience?And what does a Garda get from his her job?Experience(well most do,maturity I mean).

Btw,I'm not attacking you Nog,I just don't agree with your post.I think at a young age,the morals and ethics of a Garda can be etched into those without a lot of life experience,more easily than those who have 'been there,done that'.

ojewriej

eroo wrote: »

Well you could say the same about the Fire Brigade and the Defence Forces(17),as well as allowing people into med school at 17/18.The fact is,everyone is different and will respond differently to situations.Granted that means we might not have a weight of experience under our belts but that doesn't would not make good Gardai.I know of one 19y/o Garda who is a fine Garda.
If your going to go into having people working in stressful jobs at 18,and how it shouldn't be allowed,then a can of worms will be opened.Why let an 18y/o do security in HMV?He could potentially have to deal with a stressful,life threatning situ,such as being assaulted.
An 18y/o soldier going to Chad will face a tougher daily life than a Garda here in Ireland.He/she could be killed at any time;may come across refugees in malnourished state;and may witness his/her buddies being killed.Does that mean they can't handle it?No,most can.

There is one big difference - people you described don't hold as much power over citizens as Guards do.

I tend to agree with theNog on this one. Joining GS at 18, you simply don't know anything else. Which at times can badly affect the way you are using your discretion. Your empathy towards civilians will be certainly affected as well.

eroo wrote: »

If we're speaking of maturity,look at some current Gardai.A local traffic Garda here in Limerick known as 'Robocop'(because he used to catch so many people breaking road laws) was arrested last week for drink driving!!Or maybe that case of a young man being allegedly assaulted by Gardai in front of his mother a few months ago was itself immature and brought about by immaturity.It started because one of the Gardai had gotten into a fist fight with the man while off duty.Does that sound mature??

I don't really see your point here.

eroo wrote: »

Finally,at 18 we are legally allowed to vote,and are recognised by the State as adults.If I can vote and am recognised as an adult,am I not entitled to the same job as any other adult?Or am I discriminated against because of the my age?

So using this logic - should AGS allow 60 or 70 year olds to join as well?

eroo wrote: »

I would like to point out that most cases involving Gardai being prosecuted,the Gardai themselves are in their 30's or 40's.Young people can actually be mature believe it or not.

How old were they when they joined then? Certainly less than 25.

eroo wrote: »

AGS,PSNI,DF,FB and HSE seem to think so.Also,does one not become mature through experience?And what does a Garda get from his her job?Experience(well most do,maturity I mean).

As i said, while using your discretion in certain situations, you have to be able to emphasize with your "customers". I think some pre-GS life experience would be of a big advantage in these situations.


Having said that, I'm not so sure if the age limit should be upped, I think it's better for your own sake to see a bit of other life before you make a decision.

mc-panda

Eroo raised some very good points, in fairness, especially in relation to med students and members of the defense forces.

But I do agree that life experience should be a crucial criterion for an applicant to AGS.

mc-panda

And doctors and military personnel hold an awful lot of power. In fact, in the grand scheme of things they hold more than a Garda.

ojewriej

mc-panda wrote: »

And doctors and military personnel hold an awful lot of power. In fact, in the grand scheme of things they hold more than a Garda.

As for doctors - they don't really until they are in their late 20. Plus being a doctor is not as much of a lifestyl as being a guard is. And it's completely different kind of power as well, life experience isn't that important in their job.

Soldiers, I'm inclined to agree to a certain extent, although combat situations are quite different from day to day street policing. But as with the Guards, I think it would be better for them to live a little before joining.

And before somoene misinterprets me - I'm not saying that older people make better guards, I'm sure there is plenty of young lads and girls who are great at their job.

Fyr.Fytr

Do what I hope to do, join the reserve and be "babysitted" for want of a better word and get all the experience you want

ojewriej

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

Do what I hope to do, join the reserve and be "babysitted" for want of a better word and get all the experience you want

I think it's a very good idea actually. Get a feel for the job in GR, doing your own thing in the meantime, and then if you still like it after a while go full time.

Fyr.Fytr

Yup, good way to test the water, still be better if it was more like the special constable system in the uk, ie wouldnt be a burden on full timers but none the less.









Plus if im very very lucky I might get to meet karlitos or the nog and report back on what they're really like (yes nog you can drive my ambulance)

eroo

ojewriej wrote: »

I think it's a very good idea actually. Get a feel for the job in GR, doing your own thing in the meantime, and then if you still like it after a while go full time.

But the GR is almost the same as full time GS.How can you possibly say that someone needs plenty of life experience to be a full time Garda,but not to be a Reservist??

Fyr.Fytr

I think what they're getting it is being a gr is the limited powers and supervision from a regular garda, prevent immature power trips and the like, also stops you committing to a carrer which maybe in a few years you decide to stuff it it, save AGS a fortune in training and most of all wages

eroo

ojewriej wrote: »

There is one big difference - people you described don't hold as much power over citizens as Guards do.
So doctors don't have the power of giving/taking life?Look at Harold Shipman as an example.Firefighters often deal with extremely traumatic incidents just like Gardai.As do nurses.Where did you get this thing of ''power over citizens''?The point TheNog made was whether or not 18-19y/o are mature enough to be able to deal with the things Gardai deal with.Power isn't the only one.
I tend to agree with theNog on this one. Joining GS at 18, you simply don't know anything else. Which at times can badly affect the way you are using your discretion. Your empathy towards civilians will be certainly affected as well.
I don't see how it can.So,what,somebody with 3 years of college is going to better able to use their discretion?Not always the case.


I don't really see your point here.
OP spoke of 18y/o being too immature for the job.Some Gardai out there are immature such as the ones I mentioned,unless drink driving isn't a sign of immaturity from a 40+ y/o Garda?I bet they joined in their late 20's.My point is,you don't read about 18/19y/o Gardai being prosecuted for offences very often


So using this logic - should AGS allow 60 or 70 year olds to join as well?
Be realistic,they'd have to raise the retirement age then!:D




As i said, while using your discretion in certain situations, you have to be able to emphasize with your "customers". I think some pre-GS life experience would be of a big advantage in these situations.
Who is to say what the right experience is?You mean to say if I work for in a job dealing with the public everyday for a year before applying,not to mention being an Army Reservist,that a 20 year old Arts student has more life experience than me because he went to college?That is what most applicants dub as life experience nowadays,3 years in college drinking and partying with the occasional bit of study!!

Having said that, I'm not so sure if the age limit should be upped, I think it's better for your own sake to see a bit of other life before you make a decision.Well I'm with you on the experience side of things,I just disagree with the concept of spending 2 or 3 years doing something for the sake of experience alone.

...

eroo

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

I think what they're getting it is being a gr is the limited powers and supervision from a regular garda, prevent immature power trips and the like, also stops you committing to a carrer which maybe in a few years you decide to stuff it it, save AGS a fortune in training and most of all wages

Fair enough,but you never know about a full time career.What is to say someone who loved the GR and decided to apply,won't hate their job after 5 years as a full time Garda?

eroo

One other thing,your forgetting that young Gardai are the bloodlife of the organisation.An 18y/o,if he/she makes a career out of it,could end up being a Garda for 35-40 years.That would mean they would be some of the most experienced Gardai when they retire.

Fyr.Fytr

eroo wrote: »

Fair enough,but you never know about a full time career.What is to say someone who loved the GR and decided to apply,won't hate their job after 5 years as a full time Garda?

Very true and i see your point, but I suppose it lessens the odds a bit.

I think there are veryu valid points for and against, and there will always be exceptions to the rule and we just have to live with it.

Suppose the only thing you can do is try whittle those most likely to fail out during assesment stages

Other then that i dont really know

Eroo your in the same boat as me, 3 years with omac, trained first responder, unit ambulance officer, trained cadets and have a hell of alot of expereince treat both minor and major cases (including a fatality) but it seems almost regardless my age will go against me

eroo

I think there are veryu valid points for and against, and there will always be exceptions to the rule and we just have to live with it.

Suppose the only thing you can do is try whittle those most likely to fail out during assesment stages

I couldn't have put it better myself mate!

I won't be back on boards for a while as I'm going away for most of the summer,but keep posting in the thread and I'll be refreshed enough to type some more really long posts when I get back!!

mc-panda

I still argue that not much distinguishes the stresses of being a doctor or being a garda (except the pay discrepencies). Both jobs mean you really never clock out of work. Doctors make split second decisions every day that affect people's lives; sometimes forever. So do Gardai. The point I'm making is that maturity is a crucial factor for a prospective candidate for either position. However, maturity is relative and each candidate should be judged on his or her own merits.

I've been working with challenging teenagers for a few years now. I've seen some horrible things and have been involved in some terrible (and terrifying) situations. I have more letters after my name than Johnny Alphabet and have trained in more courses for my job than I care to remember. Does any of this make me mature? I don't think so. I did spend my first three years in college getting drunk and scoring women. In fact, the most important thing I learned in college was fine-tuning my social skills! Does any of my training and/or experience mean I'd make a good Garda? I doubt that too. I just think I would.

Everything is relative and everyone is completely different.

kwalsh000

Just to chime in, I tend to agree with the previous statement. There are exceptions to each of the rules. It has not got much to do with age but more so with personality.

I'm 22 now and I joined up when I was 20. Previously having spent 2 years working security and time in college aswell. It can be a problem when dealing with some members of the public who would view young Gardai as 'babies' and are taken less seriously, but a professional member won't let it affect them and quickly the member of the public will change their view. In my phase there were some very young people and the maturity level differed quite a bit, the same goes for the more mature people in the group who quickly let the power go to their head, even as a student.

What I am trying to say is age does not really matter when it comes down to being able to perform in a job to the best of your ability and handle whatever is thrown at you. It doesn't matter if your 19 or 30, seeing your first dead body etc will have an affect. Just because you spent time in college or as a supervisor somewhere else doesn't mean you can somehow handle the new situations.

In addition to this, Phase One and Two would 'hopefully' weed out those who are too immature for the job (as should the interview, and Phase Four assessments etc).

Joining the GR is a great thing for those who wish to join but don't want to take the plunge just yet and they are doing the right thing by testing the waters, so to speak.

The only thing I would say about young members, i.e 18-22 is that they are not set in their ways and are in the job because they want to be and this makes them more open to learning and taking it all in and putting to practice what they have learned from members with more experience. Opposed to such things as more mature members who join at a later date and think they know the job already as they have worked security, being manager etc and are not as willing to sit back and learn. Again this is just a generalization on my part and I have only experienced the above a couple of times, same goes for immature young members.

Well, my ramblings over

Eru

Speaking purely on opinion and what I have seen to date I think 18 is too young to be a Garda. Of course there are exceptions but the 18 year olds I trained with were, too be honest, immature morons who drank too much and drove too fast.

However its also rare to get into AGS at 18, most of the time you will not be accepted straight from school due to a mix of un-official policy and being compared to applicants that have third level and/or work experience. It happens but rare.

Im in favour of a life experience points system, you need a certain amount of points which are earned through both work and college. For example: 4 years college or 4 years working fulltime or a mix of say 2 years college and 2 years work, etc.

However, on the other end of this is how old should the maximum be? I have seen directly one 30 something who had an attitude against people younger than him giving him orders and also someone who thinks he knows it all based on previous work experience to such an extent that he tells senior people how to do their jobs and wont listen to anyone else.

Ultimately it comes down to mental age and general life experience, some 18s are fine some not and so on.

As for doctors,
Its a very responsible job and high pressured too no doubt about it but its also a lot longer training and supervision before they can work alone meaning they will be mid 20s at least.

Soldiers,
Dont see what power they have on a day to day basis too be honest. A soldier walking down the street has no more or less power than a road sweeper or college student. On UN duty they have power but is it any greater than police on UN duty? which is usually less than policing your own state.

Mind you, I also think people over estimate the power and influence Gardai actually have.

fermoyboy

As others have said before, I think it completely depends on the individual. Some will mature quickly and suit the job, others will let the power go to their heads!!

Personally speaking I reckon 18 is too young to join AGS.

I joined straight from school back in 98 and was the youngest in my phase. I had a lot of doubts through various points in my career so far but am still here because I want to be.

However I personally hold it as the biggest regret in my life that I joined so young. I never got to mess around in college, travel around for a year or so, get other life experiences etc before joining.

Each individual is different and regardless of age different people will either fit the job or not. I just reckon people should live a little and see life from the outside before going into Templemore.

PeelerHurley

eroo wrote: »

If we're speaking of maturity,look at some current Gardai.A local traffic Garda here in Limerick known as 'Robocop'(because he used to catch so many people breaking road laws) was arrested last week for drink driving!!
.

There was no member of the Limerick Traffic Corps arrested last week for drink driving. That stupid rumour has been doing the rounds since ive been in limerick and thats over 5 years and in those 5 years no member of the Limerick Traffic Corps has been arrested.

Jesus i thought here in the Emergency Services Forums we would have more educated posts than that. I would expect a post like that in AH:mad:

Shield

To PeelerHurley:

There is a facility for you to report posts to Moderators, which is the best way to get our attention. Click on the small red triangle with the black exclamation mark and it will be flagged to us for review.

To eroo:

Do you have any public references to support this:

eroo wrote:

A local traffic Garda here in Limerick known as 'Robocop'(because he used to catch so many people breaking road laws) was arrested last week for drink driving!!

...as I would imagine this would be big news and I don't recall seeing anything about it anywhere?

Eru

PeelerHurley wrote: »

There was no member of the Limerick Traffic Corps arrested last week for drink driving. That stupid rumour has been doing the rounds since ive been in limerick and thats over 5 years and in those 5 years no member of the Limerick Traffic Corps has been arrested.

Jesus i thought here in the Emergency Services Forums we would have more educated posts than that. I would expect a post like that in AH:mad:

Was this the same Robocop that is supposed to have been transfered from Dublin for arresting the wrong drink driver?

TheNog

Some good posts for and against the idea. I think that the young 18-22 yr olds should perhaps concentrate more on living life and travelling before joining the AGS

sunnyjim

I couldn't agree more with the OP.

The only times I've ever been left pissed off by a Garda is when I'm dealing with someone around my age, usually talking down to me or getting up in my face.

I'm sure there are lads and girls who have joined and are fine, so it's not an age thing... Maybe it's just prevalent at a certain age. My girlfriend has been giving intravenous/intraperionetal anesthetic since she was 18, and has been giving it daily since. I'm sure the idea of an 18 year old sticking a needle in your mouth repeatedly is worrying at best. I actually wouldn't trust anyone that age person with something so important, except for the fact that I trust her a lot more than most her patients. I'd class a garda in a similar light - you are putting so much trust in some people, sometimes you just want to be able to look at them and think 'this person is competent, professional and experienced', and looking at a shiny young face doesn't always give that impression.

Also, I was talking to Shane Henry, the guy from the Technical Bureau. He said the later the better for joining - his reasoning being that younger people tend to become institutionalised. I'm sure that both Garda and non-garda have been in jobs where people know-it-all, stick-to-the-contract and just become useless in general.

Eru

sunnyjim wrote: »

I couldn't agree more with the OP.

The only times I've ever been left pissed off by a Garda is when I'm dealing with someone around my age, usually talking down to me or getting up in my face.

I'm sure there are lads and girls who have joined and are fine, so it's not an age thing... Maybe it's just prevalent at a certain age. My girlfriend has been giving intravenous/intraperionetal anesthetic since she was 18, and has been giving it daily since. I'm sure the idea of an 18 year old sticking a needle in your mouth repeatedly is worrying at best. I actually wouldn't trust anyone that age person with something so important, except for the fact that I trust her a lot more than most her patients. I'd class a garda in a similar light - you are putting so much trust in some people, sometimes you just want to be able to look at them and think 'this person is competent, professional and experienced', and looking at a shiny young face doesn't always give that impression.

Also, I was talking to Shane Henry, the guy from the Technical Bureau. He said the later the better for joining - his reasoning being that younger people tend to become institutionalised. I'm sure that both Garda and non-garda have been in jobs where people know-it-all, stick-to-the-contract and just become useless in general.

A, Has he gone back again? Left on promotion but I heard he was going to be brought back soon enough.

B, Excellent point.

TheNog

sunnyjim wrote: »

Also, I was talking to Shane Henry, the guy from the Technical Bureau. He said the later the better for joining - his reasoning being that younger people tend to become institutionalised. I'm sure that both Garda and non-garda have been in jobs where people know-it-all, stick-to-the-contract and just become useless in general.

Brilliant point and it is exactly what I was trying (v badly) to get across.

People this young should experience life before joining cos once in the AGS it tends to take over the majority of our lives, mine anyway