More Italian politics.

sock puppet

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Many of them are Italian. Virtually all are EU citizens. The EU does allow for the deporting of other EU citizens in some cases.

Well according to this article almost half of them are Italian citizens with about 40,000 being from the Balkans. These people are not citizens of these countries anymore after the breakup of Yugoslavia therefore there is nowhere to deport them to.

The Italians never did anything to Romanian gypsies.




ffs.

They shipped 1000 of them off to their deaths during World War 2 and were allied with Germany making them responsible for all of the war crimes committed. But i don't really want to argue about things that happened 60 years ago so I'll just leave it at that the Roma people have suffered discrimination throughout Europe since the middle ages and this only breeds hatred and mistrust. Italy has been nowhere near as bad as some other counties but they are hardly blameless.

They do NOT owe help to FOREIGN gypsies. People who until the 1990s they had zero contact with. Jesus like :rolleyes: Thi is just taking the piss at this stage.

Fine then but after the few thousand or so who can be deported are they'll still be left with the ones who are either Italian citizens or aren't citizens of any country.

In terms of helping the Roma I'd suggest either granting all of these Italian citizenship or else attempting to repatriate them but I can't see any Balkans countries accepting them in a hurry so it would probably be a long and drawn out process. Ending the segregated housing and the forced evictions would also help.

ejmaztec

sock puppet wrote: »

Well according to this article almost half of them are Italian citizens with about 40,000 being from the Balkans. These people are not citizens of these countries anymore after the breakup of Yugoslavia therefore there is nowhere to deport them to.


They shipped 1000 of them off to their deaths during World War 2 and were allied with Germany making them responsible for all of the war crimes committed. But i don't really want to argue about things that happened 60 years ago so I'll just leave it at that the Roma people have suffered discrimination throughout Europe since the middle ages and this only breeds hatred and mistrust. Italy has been nowhere near as bad as some other counties but they are hardly blameless.



Fine then but after the few thousand or so who can be deported are they'll still be left with the ones who are either Italian citizens or aren't citizens of any country.

In terms of helping the Roma I'd suggest either granting all of these Italian citizenship or else attempting to repatriate them but I can't see any Balkans countries accepting them in a hurry so it would probably be a long and drawn out process. Ending the segregated housing and the forced evictions would also help.

I don't think that anyone became stateless as a result of the break-up of Yugoslavia.

sock puppet

ejmaztec wrote: »

I don't think that anyone became stateless as a result of the break-up of Yugoslavia.

http://www.errc.org/cikk.php?cikk=1097

Before the breakup of Yugoslavia people there had citizenship of their own republic and also Yugoslav citizenship. A lot of Roma were only registered as citizens of Yugoslavia and not their own countries. After the dissolution of Yugoslavia they became stateless. None of the new countries have solved this problem. The citizenship laws are also racist. In Croatia for example people who lived in Croatia before the breakup of Yugoslavia but were not official citizens can obtain citizenship but it discriminates against people who are not ethnic Croats.

Now none of this can be blamed on Italy but whether they like it or not its their problem too now. But thinking about it I don't think granting them Italian citizenship is the answer. They should put pressure on the former Yugoslav states to change their citizenship laws and in the meantime treat the Roma humanely by stopping the forced evictions.

ejmaztec

sock puppet wrote: »

http://www.errc.org/cikk.php?cikk=1097

Before the breakup of Yugoslavia people there had citizenship of their own republic and also Yugoslav citizenship. A lot of Roma were only registered as citizens of Yugoslavia and not their own countries. After the dissolution of Yugoslavia they became stateless. None of the new countries have solved this problem. The citizenship laws are also racist. In Croatia for example people who lived in Croatia before the breakup of Yugoslavia but were not official citizens can obtain citizenship but it discriminates against people who are not ethnic Croats.

Now none of this can be blamed on Italy but whether they like it or not its their problem too now. But thinking about it I don't think granting them Italian citizenship is the answer. They should put pressure on the former Yugoslav states to change their citizenship laws and in the meantime treat the Roma humanely by stopping the forced evictions.

The way that I see it is that, because the Roma try to live their lives below the radar in many societies, they're not too hot in retaining the usual cross-border, or any other documentation. If they can't prove their identities and points of origin, then they've only got themselves to blame. We are all expected, even within the EU, to produce passports etc, so why should the Roma be exempt from the same rules and regulations as everyone else?

If a plane-load of Croatian Roma landed in Zagreb on a deportation flight from Rome, the Croatian's would have very little choice in the matter.

sock puppet

ejmaztec wrote: »

The way that I see it is that, because the Roma try to live their lives below the radar in many societies, they're not too hot in retaining the usual cross-border, or any other documentation. If they can't prove their identities and points of origin, then they've only got themselves to blame. We are all expected, even within the EU, to produce passports etc, so why should the Roma be exempt from the same rules and regulations as everyone else?

If a plane-load of Croatian Roma landed in Zagreb on a deportation flight from Rome, the Croatian's would have very little choice in the matter.

It has nothing to do with the Roma wanting to lie low and avoid detection. Its also happened to a lot of non-Roma people who migrated from one Yugoslav country to another before the war.

Since the former Yugoslav countries all want to be part of the EU and Slovenia are already members it should be easy for the EU to pressurise them into accepting these people back and making them citizens

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2008/0110/1199313761225.html

From the article
"Critics such as human rights watchdog Helsinki Monitor also point to Slovenia's poor record in dealing with non-Slovene citizens of the former Yugoslavia. In 1992, shortly after independence, thousands of non-Slovenes were simply erased from citizen books, when they failed to meet a six-month deadline of registration"

Many people in Slovenia didn't even know that Slovenian citizenship existed as it was pointless. Just search google for Slovenia and erased. The Roma and others who are stateless are entirely blameless for their situation.

Since the former Yugoslav countries all want to be part of the EU and slovenia already are it should be easy for the EU to pressurise them into accepting these people back and giving them back their citizenship. Its not a case of simply sending them en masse to a country where they will have no rights.

ejmaztec

sock puppet wrote: »

It has nothing to do with the Roma wanting to lie low and avoid detection. Its also happened to a lot of non-Roma people who migrated from one Yugoslav country to another before the war.

Since the former Yugoslav countries all want to be part of the EU and Slovenia are already members it should be easy for the EU to pressurise them into accepting these people back and making them citizens

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2008/0110/1199313761225.html

From the article
"Critics such as human rights watchdog Helsinki Monitor also point to Slovenia's poor record in dealing with non-Slovene citizens of the former Yugoslavia. In 1992, shortly after independence, thousands of non-Slovenes were simply erased from citizen books, when they failed to meet a six-month deadline of registration"

Many people in Slovenia didn't even know that Slovenian citizenship existed as it was pointless. Just search google for Slovenia and erased. The Roma and others who are stateless are entirely blameless for their situation.

Since the former Yugoslav countries all want to be part of the EU and slovenia already are it should be easy for the EU to pressurise them into accepting these people back and giving them back their citizenship. Its not a case of simply sending them en masse to a country where they will have no rights.

Thanks for the info links - I must have missed out on this crucial state of affairs.

However, the figure for "stateless" Slovenians seems to be in the region of 18000+. I can't find anywhere that tells me how many of these people are still residing in Slovenia, or what the ethnic divide is.

I think that the Italians are well within their rights to investigate the origins of the Roma population. Any of the resident Roma who cannot prove that they are Italian citizens must be segregated from the ones who can prove their Italian status. The next split would be to ascertain which of them are from other EU countries, and which of them are not. If the EU makes an exception in the case of the Roma, then they might as well let all of the North African "boat-people" in as well, not to mention anyone else on the EU's borders.

I get the impression that most people would turn a blind eye, were the Roma to disappear overnight and would imagine that only a small percentage would bother themselves to find out what became of them.

However, in these PC days, that's not going to happen (again). The Roma need a good spin-doctor to persuade people that they don't steal babies or your money and are simply culturally different. The job would take decades.

sovtek

ejmaztec wrote: »

I get the impression that most people would turn a blind eye, were the Roma to disappear overnight and would imagine that only a small percentage would bother themselves to find out what became of them.

Someone already tried that. I wonder what you would think if I were to trade Irish with Roma. Oh yeah someone already tried that as well.

ejmaztec

sovtek wrote: »

Someone already tried that. I wonder what you would think if I were to trade Irish with Roma. Oh yeah someone already tried that as well.

I think that you've got the wrong end of the stick in whatever assumptions you've arrived at.

marcsignal

ejmaztec wrote: »

We are all expected, even within the EU, to produce passports etc, so why should the Roma be exempt from the same rules and regulations as everyone else?

+1

Let's be realistic about this point, it's simply not possible to make 'special exceptions' to the point of infinity for this group and that group, or the legal system would end up bogged down in a quagmire of technicalities. There are plenty of rules and regulations that affect my life that I don't like, but that's just tough, I have to accept them anyway, be accountable for my actions, and I do so in the knowledge that my neighbour, generally speaking, has to also.