Domestic violence - has it affected you/anyone you know?

Mikel

tallaght01 wrote: »

Mikel, the ads don't say "don't beat your wife" etc. They advertise help services that are available to those who perpetrate violence or other forms of abuse

I didn't say they did or they should, someone above suggested an ad campaign should be directed at men to stop beating their partners

tallaght01 wrote:

A lot of the girls in my martial arts club aren't going to take a hiding too easily. It shouldn't come down to having to protect yourself physically, but I think it's a good idea for a girl to have some training under real pressure circumstances to fall back on.

The problem is it breeds a false sense of security. There is a difference between a fight with a stranger and an abusive relationship. In the latter you have the ultimate sanction of leaving, provided you have the 'self esteem' for want of a better term and options of where to go.

Moonbaby wrote:

We were given self defense training in the school.
The focus was on attitude and conflict avoidance. Not trusting strangers before they have prove they can be trusted. How to side step drunken aggresive men in clubs. How to give out the signal that your not a soft touch, and it will be troublesome to mess with you.

Certainly more useful, but not what is usually meant by people who advertise 'self defence training'.. Most of that will get you more hurt.
The number of girls I've met who waffle about doing some form of sd... delusional imo

panda100 wrote:

I actually find it quite shocking that people here think it's women that need to change,its women that have to take self defence classes,its women that must work on their self esteem!! Like everything else in society,its the womens fault for not protecting herself to begin with
Perhaps we should actually focus on the problem,which is the issues of MEN'S self esteem, and why they feel compelled to exert their power by hitting their wife/partner.

So many things wrong with that.
It's not just men that engage in it.
You could apply the same logic to all violence in society, I hardly think that's going to be eliminated.

There has to be a fundamental change in the ways genders are viewed in society. Society, from a young age, instills the notion that men are the powerful,stronger sex and women are the weaker,docile sex.Men see this around them everyday from Nuts magazine to music videos which depicts women in submissive positions and men as the dominant force.

Yep it's all the fault of MTV:rolleyes:

However,society is changing and women are becoming just as dominant and influential as men. So many men get very confused and frustrated at their role and position in society.Their wife/partner may be the breadwinner or stronger force in their relationship and so men feel the only way they have to exert their masculinity is through their physical strength

So by that logic it would be more of a problem today than it was 30 or 40 years ago? You really think so?

There hasnt even been any cohesive studies done since 1999!

The reason for that is very simple. One half of the problem is taken very seriously, but that is for ideological reasons. Studies have been done abroad but they don't reach the right conclusions to be publicised here. No need to do a study if you already know all the answers

Mikel

Mikel wrote: »

Certainly more useful, but not what is usually meant by people who advertise 'self defence training'.. Most of that will get you more hurt.
The number of girls I've met who waffle about doing some form of sd... delusional imo

If you haven't done a self defense course I don't think you are qualified to make that comment.

Black Swan

Moonbaby wrote: »

If you haven't done a self defense course I don't think you are qualified to make that comment.

Or a few years of MA and SD, which I train and part-time teach.

Mikel

Moonbaby wrote: »

If you haven't done a self defense course I don't think you are qualified to make that comment.

Balderdash! I know enough about sd courses...Most of them are gimmicks. I don't have to take them to know that. They prey on impressionable women who think you can learn to 'defend yourself' by attending a short course.
There are women walking around who have been shown these 'if he does this..you do that..' techniques. Like I said, delusional.

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Or a few years of MA and SD, which I train and part-time teach

'Martial Arts' covers a multitude, only a small proportion of martial arts classes are of any practical benefit in that way.
It depends what is being trained and how it's being trained.

Dudess

Once Were Warriors is horrific all right, but such a powerful story, thus I can bring myself to watch it.

Nil By Mouth on the other hand... Jesus Christ. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119792/

No storyline - just a glimpse at the lives of people caught up in a cycle of poverty, addiction, crime and inconceivable violence. At one stage, Ray Winston's character beats his wife (Kathy Burke) so badly she tells her mum she was hit by a car... and her mum believes her.

CathyMoran, fair play to you for bringing yourself to disclose such personal information. That took huge bravery. You seem like a very loving, kind person and your longing for a child gives the impression that you'll be a wonderful mother. Fair play to you for breaking the cycle.

Piste

OK whoops I should have said "people" rather than "men" there in that last post of mine, my bad!

I was thinking more along the lines of instilling fear into them, instead of "ah sure get up outta that!" ad campaigns letting them know in no uncertain terms the gravity of what they're doing and what the implicatios could be for THEM. Some sort of campaign that let's them know that they will be seen as abusers for the rest of their life. If people saw these ads along with the ads urging people to come forward if they're the victim of abuse they might think twice before giving the ol' "fist kisses".

Black Swan

Mikel wrote: »

'Martial Arts' covers a multitude, only a small proportion of martial arts classes are of any practical benefit in that way.
It depends what is being trained and how it's being trained.

This is an elaboration of the obvious? We combine MA & SD in our dojang where I part-time instruct. I have never advocated the short seminar approach to self-defense, considering it trendy and ineffective (nor have I advocated it here, if someone would bother to read my earlier posts).

It takes years to develop both the will and skill to defend yourself with any expectation of success (no matter your gender), which was my original point when stating earlier... If I had a daughter, I would start her with martial arts/self defense at an early age and continue it until she left home. It would be a part of her required schooling, just like traditional education.

And to suggest that years of training in MA/SD would not make a difference or give a false sense of security to women is greatly misinformed, and frankly, so cliche' that it supports the notion that women cannot defend themselves against larger males, and therefore should accept that condition, which is pure bull! Most males in the street are untrained, and could not punch their way out of a paper bag!

Further, you do not have to give up your femininity by taking MA/SD. That is also cliche' and supportive of the female stereotypic inferiority status quo that some still cling to (which is dying a slow death). Males that know me here and back home in Ireland have often said that they would never guess me to be a Kukkiwon 2-dan black belt that trains and competes in tournaments (with some kickboxing and swordplay thrown in). Although physically fit and somewhat above average height (5'10"), I am slender at just over 8 stone, love to shop, cook, dance, and like to wear dresses with heels. Furthermore, they also say that they would not try to physically threaten me either, which, certainly adds to my self-esteem (a topic brought up frequently in this thread). So if you wish, you can become a Nikita, but don't forget the La Femme part!

nomorebadtown

i dunno about self defence training...ever notice how lots of the people who have done SD or MA have a story about the time when they were "forced to defend" themselves and the aggressor came off badly? Where as most people who have never done any SD or MA have never got in a fight because they approach the situation differently. I did MA for about 9 months and left because of the attitude of many of the other people at the classes, they were either really 'zen' try-hard types or people who harboured some kind of feelings of inadequacy...i was there to meet people and keep fit.

back on topic: this problem will never go away. some people are just violent and domineering and usually these traits dont surface until its too late. it needs to be made clear to people from an early age that this is unacceptalbe and a relationship will terminate the moment it starts.

The Sweeper

On the self defence thing: martial arts training will undoubtedly help in some way, shape or form if you find yourself on the receiving end of aggression while you are, for instance, in the pub, or walking on the street, or you get mugged at a bus stop, or whatever else.

However, domestic violence isn't just about yer bloke coming home from the pub one night and delivering a few slaps that you can block with wax-on, wax-off gestures before karate chopping him.

People in abusive relationships have serious self esteem issues. They have a poor sense of their own self worth, and are manipulable and open to the suggestion that the aggression they are targeted with is their own fault. "You deserved it. You bring this out in me. You start the fights. You shouldn't provoke me. You know how I get."

Anyone who thinks domestic abuse is just about the slaps - well I envy you, because you have no direct experience of domestic abuse.

There is a wealth, a tidal wave of emotional abuse that precedes being slapped if you're in an abusive relationship. In some ways, the slap is the dam breaking - the release. It's nearly a relief to be slapped, because this is what it's been working up to, and now here it is, and when it's over that's this episode done with.

Watching an abuser work themselves up to being physically violent towards you is an experience like no other. There is nothing you can do to head them off. Passivity angers them. Avoidance angers them. Argument angers them. Defiance angers them. Refusing to fight angers them. Refusing to speak angers them. Threatening to fight angers them. Speaking too much angers them.

Abusive people - especially the sort of abusers who don'tcome from poor socio-economic backgrounds - are often charming and intelligent and as slyly manipulative as any confidence trickster. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to fool their partners into staying with them.

In most abusive relationships, the victim started the relationship by falling in love with their abuser. Abuse often takes a while to surface. Familiarity breeds contempt, and contempt breeds slaps. As in any early relationship, you're full of the happiness and passion for each other that healthy relationships have, and as with healthy relationships, before you really get to know each other you fill in some of the blanks yourself.

Subsequently you're surprised the first time he or she goes off half-cocked. Why wouldn't you be? Nobody expects their hitherto pleasant and charming partner to suddenly become an abusive arsehole. And it's often apparently in response to something you're doing - why didn't you answer your mobile phone on the first ring; why was the house phone engaged for an hour tonight when I tried phoning, oh your parents, oh yeah right; did you get chatted up when you were out with the girls, oh you expect me to believe that; who's this postcard from, why are they sending you a postcard; why was the neighbour in this house while I was out, what did they want, why did they leave before I got home, what were you doing?.

Most people, but most especially people with poor self esteem or just people who have led previously gentle lives, will automatically switch to defensiveness when accused of something unreasonable. And the more unreasonable, the more defensive. The more defensive, 'the more guilty you sound'. But now you're antagonising your abuser, because you sound guilty. Now stop whinging. Why are you trying so hard if you're telling the truth? Are you lying to me?

If you throw enough mud at a wall, it sticks. Often an abuser will take a long time before physically assaulting their partner, and during that time the emotional abuse will be sufficient that the partner is totally, utterly and absolutely emotionally exhausted by the time they get slapped for the first time. When you're emotionally exhausted, you're not thinking straight. You've been told you're worthless, and you have tendancies to moodiness, and some days you're not a nice person, and that time you did X, well that proves you're just as bad as your partner is, except they're more honest because they lose their temper, whereas you're just sly and conniving and nobody ever knows what you're thinking.

On top of all of this mental abuse, a controlling, domineering partner will add other things to the cocktail - you probably don't speak to your family as much any more. You almost certainly are no longer close with your best friend, because your abusive partner will have found some reason he or she is bad for you. Additionally, most victims will find themselves subconsciously positioning themselves between their partner and their support network, because you try to protect your support network from your partner. The protective respect you can't even give yourself, you'll still find it within yourself to extend that to your parents, your siblings and your friends.

So while your abusive partner wears you down until you don't know if you're Arthur or Martha, your inner voice thinks "This is my problem, this is my fault, I have to fix this myself, I must protect them from this, this is my bed, I have to lie in it" so you distance yourself from your support network.

That's why women go back to abusive partners. Because if they can just get their bloke to be nice to them, then that proves they're not a bad person. That's why men hide their female partner's violence towards them. Because if he was the man he should be, she wouldn't be acting like this because women don't normally behave like this.

How easy it is.

How easy it is to be fooled. How easy it is to be worn down. How easy it is to measure your own self worth in terms of how others treat you. How easy, then, it is to believe you deserve what you get. How easy it is to start to excuse horrific behaviour because you consider yourself at least partially at fault. How easy it is to drift away from your support network and be lost at sea because inside you know you don't want to admit to them what you won't even admit to yourself: this is a mistake. I have made a mistake. I cannot fix this. This cannot be fixed. I need to get away.

This is how women wait until they actually believe their partner might kill them before they get the courage to leave.

Leave, or die. The lucky ones find the strength in time.

Reku

Moonbaby wrote: »

I'd be surprised if there wasn't a signifigant percent of female abusers responsible for domestic violence.

I know of at least one, and come to think of it there was one on PI a while back, where the woman plays the victim to the public even though she's the one hurling all the psychological abuse, as a result not only is the husband having to put up with this but he's also already up the creek should he try any legal recourse on the matter. Unfortunately a downside of a society bred to believe that men are the aggressors is that we are sometimes too quick to accept women's claims of victimisation. It is a difficult matter, either view claims of domestic abuse by women with higher skepticism and risk continued victimisation of more of them or accept them all as gospel and have victimisation of men falsely accused. Even though I know of these cases in a simple game of numbers I'd have to admit that the current arrangement is better at protecting people.:(

I think what really is needed is a campaign to make victims realise they should just walk away, this is something that to be honest I do see more often with women, in that the guy will treat them poorly or cheat on them, yet they actually take him back and still don't get a clue when he does it again, repeatedly forgiving him and expecting that somehow he will change. I've even known some to return to the lad months/years later, as if in that time he'll somehow have changed. I think part of it seems to be that women appear to be more fearful of not being in a relationship, being "alone"/single.

As for physical abuse within the home, I think anyone who's seen Misery will realise just how easy it would be to do to someone regardless of their MA/SD training, we all have to sleep sometime. So while MA/SD may offer some benefit the determined abuser would find a way regardless, and then, as per my initial paragraph, you will of course have those who will in fact use their MA/SD training to become the abusers.

Wibbs

nomorebadtown wrote: »

i dunno about self defence training...ever notice how lots of the people who have done SD or MA have a story about the time when they were "forced to defend" themselves and the aggressor came off badly? Where as most people who have never done any SD or MA have never got in a fight because they approach the situation differently. I did MA for about 9 months and left because of the attitude of many of the other people at the classes, they were either really 'zen' try-hard types or people who harboured some kind of feelings of inadequacy...i was there to meet people and keep fit.

Yea I did some SD stuff years back. Different types as well, just to see which one would take and I found exactly the same thing.

I think they are useful as ways of gaining confidence to the point where you wouldn't be in the situation in the first place. That said I know a high level kick boxer whose boyfriend is abusive.


Minesajackdaniels great bloody post.

tallaght01

panda100 wrote: »

I actually find it quite shocking that people here think it's women that need to change,its women that have to take self defence classes,its women that must work on their self esteem!! Like everything else in society,its the womens fault for not protecting herself to begin with!

Oh come on, Panda. That's really stretching your interpretative skills to the limit. No-one is saying that violence is OK, and that women should just take classes if they want to defend themselves.

As for self defence classes giving a false sense of security. It's an opinion, but I think it's wrong. I know if I were a girl who was about to take a hiding from a bigger guy i'd much rather I'd had martial arts training than not. It's not the answer to the problem, which is a multi-factorial one. But it is a damn handy skill to have if you're in a bad situation as far as I'm concerned.

Wibbs

I agree it's a handy skill. It depends on the type too. Some are next to pointless in a real world situation. Kickboxing I would reckon the best.

The false confidence I've seen up close though. A woman I know ended up in hospital, with a fractured jaw and punctured lung when she reckoned her brown belt in karate would protect her. Apparently she could have walked away too, but nope.

Drummo

You'd be better off with a combat sport than a MA or SD

panda100

Piste wrote: »

OK whoops I should have said "people" rather than "men" there in that last post of mine, my bad!

Lets not get all pc about this.Men make up a tiny tiny proprtion of victims of domestic violence.In 90%of cases men are the perpetrators of domestic abuse .Yes domestic violence affects both men and women,but it does not affect us equally,it affects us very unequally and the reasosn for this should be acknowledged and addressed.

Mikel wrote: »

No need to do a study if you already know all the answers

So the answers are for women to take self defence classes and see a psychologist about her self esteem issues? So we'll just ignore looking at the reasons why so many men continue to physically/verbally/mentally abuse their partners? As so oft in todays society when a man does something wrong the onus is on the women to change. Honestly that is what is coming across in this thread wether intentionally or unintentionally. Not once has someone suggested why men feel the need to resort to violence and how they need to change.Perhaps It is the perpetrators,the men themselves that have the self esteem issues??

I guess Im someone who believes in looking at the causes and dealing with them rather than allowing abuse to happen and leaving women to deal with all the consequences. As a feminist I fully believe that domestic violence is rooted in outmoded ideas about men’s control and authority over women especially within the family. The unequal power relations that exist in our (capitalist) society as a whole are reflected within personal relationships and therefore reinforce and perpetuate domestic abuse.
I dont believe domestic abuse is a 'personal' problem that should be dealt with by women individually by taking karate lessons; domestic violence is a political and social problem. It will only be when women and men are truly equal in society that domestic abuse will begin to be eradicated and in capitalist Ireland which thrives on the division of genders, equality will never be reached.

Quite a shocking report here:
http://www.amnesty.ie/amnesty/upload/images/amnesty_ie/campaigns/SVAW/Justice%20and%20Accountability%20-%20Stop%20Violence%20Against%20Women.pdf




Cathy Moran: Child abuse is a horrific problem in Ireland,one that has to be adressed and action must be taken on. It is inspirational that you have gone through so much and yet are such a positive,brave and loving person.
Its when people like you speak out that others also will feel brave enough to speak out.

Dragan

panda100 wrote: »

Not once has someone suggested why men feel the need to resort to violence and how they need to change.Perhaps It is the perpetrators,the men themselves that have the self esteem issues??

Of course they do, but this is by and large a moot issue in the public. Men who commit domestic violence will instantly go into the same catagory for most people as a child molestor or a rapist.....they are scum and most people have no desire to understand scum.

The "easiest" way, in the public eye, to solve any problem, is to solve it at the victim. They need help, sometimes they even want help, so it is much easier to approach it from this point of view rather than trying to fix someone that we see as being "wrong" and who may tell us to go and shove it.

No one likes a challenge....not with the big issues anyway.

Reku

panda100 wrote: »

Lets not get all pc about this.Men make up a tiny tiny proprtion of victims of domestic violence.In 90%of cases men are the perpetrators of domestic abuse .Yes domestic violence affects both men and women,but it does not affect us equally,it affects us very unequally and the reasosn for this should be acknowledged and addressed.

No one really doubts that the majority of victims are women, however your claim just goes to show that 96% of statistics are made up, as we have no way on knowing that even 90% of cases are reported (I seriously doubt it unfortunately), let alone that there are equal reporting rates in both genders.

panda100 wrote: »

So the answers are for women to take self defence classes and see a psychologist about her self esteem issues? So we'll just ignore looking at the reasons why so many men continue to physically/verbally/mentally abuse their partners? As so oft in todays society when a man does something wrong the onus is on the women to change. Honestly that is what is coming across in this thread wether intentionally or unintentionally. Not once has someone suggested why men feel the need to resort to violence and how they need to change.Perhaps It is the perpetrators,the men themselves that have the self esteem issues??

Predators throughout nature, regardless of species go for the percieved easiest kill, whether it be a choice between a baby giraffe or an adult or a choice between a woman and a man. That will never change so the prey itself must adapt.

panda100 wrote: »

I guess Im someone who believes in looking at the causes and dealing with them rather than allowing abuse to happen and leaving women to deal with all the consequences. As a feminist I fully believe that domestic violence is rooted in outmoded ideas about men’s control and authority over women especially within the family. The unequal power relations that exist in our (capitalist) society as a whole are reflected within personal relationships and therefore reinforce and perpetuate domestic abuse.
I dont believe domestic abuse is a 'personal' problem that should be dealt with by women individually by taking karate lessons; domestic violence is a political and social problem. It will only be when women and men are truly equal in society that domestic abuse will begin to be eradicated and in capitalist Ireland which thrives on the division of genders, equality will never be reached.

Quite a shocking report here:
http://www.amnesty.ie/amnesty/upload/images/amnesty_ie/campaigns/SVAW/Justice%20and%20Accountability%20-%20Stop%20Violence%20Against%20Women.pdf

Domestic violence also occurs in same sex couples so there goes the "is rooted in outmoded ideas about men’s control and authority over women especially within the family" arguement.
As children which gender is more prone to teasing and bullying smaller people and creatures: males, ergo which gender is more likely to continue to engage in such activities as adults: males.
Equality has little to do with domestic abuse, it's more about bullying than anything else and you will always have that since from a simple physiological standpoint males are physically bigger and more aggressive in general. Why else do you think the abusers are often upstanding members of the community, hard to be seen as an upstanding member of the community if you're abusing numerous members of the opposite gender as the more people you abuse the higher probability of it being found out.

People simply need to learn that no-one has to put up with this type of sh*t. That it is not normal behaviour and it is definitely not acceptable behaviour. Teach people to recognise an abusive partner and get out of the relationship.

Maple

x

Reku

maple wrote: »

Instead it was the slow insiduous drip drip of poison into my ear, the clever double edged comments, the flaring of temper and then the oh my god i'm so sorry i just love you so much it drives me crazy sometimes comments. And i'm left thinking hey he loves me, so christ what's going on for him to behave like this, how can we fix this? how can I fix this?

In many way's they are the more vicious and sneaky, bruises are plain for all to see but bruised egos, only those who really know the person will notice. I also suspect these type of abusive partners take far longer to get over once you have escaped. There's not even a law to protect the victims of these!:(
Glad to hear you got out, hope you've moved on with your life completely at this point and don't let that jerk's influence continue.

John Mason

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Personally, if I were to have a daughter, I would insist that she take self-defense training from a very young age until she leaves home.

Domestic Violence is not about violence, its about power. self defence classes are useless in these kinds of situations. You would be better off teaching her to respect herself and to have confidence in herself, bullies whether they be female or male work on lower the victims self esteem to the point where they believe it is their fault and they deserve everything they get. The bully makes think there is no way out.

Self-defence classes would be such a waste of money

Earthhorse

In the UK they've introduced special courts to deal with domestic violence cases. These courts liaise with social services to help victims through the process of breaking away and testifying agains their partners in court. One of the big problems prosecution services face is victims so afraid to testify that a conviction is hard to get. In one burrough they brough the rate of testifying from someting like 20 to 50%.

They've also equipped policemen with cameras on the sides of their helmet to record the scene of domestics as they arrive. In cases where victims don't testify such evidence can be crucial in ensuring convictions.

Honestly, I think measure such as that would be better than self defence classes or advertising campaigns.

Some very brave posters in this thread by the way. And MAJD, that post was so mind-blowingly brilliant I don't know where to begin.

Mikel

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

And to suggest that years of training in MA/SD would not make a difference or give a false sense of security to women is greatly misinformed,

Does underlining something make it true?
It won't make a difference in an abusive relationship.
It may lead someone to stay and fight when they have to opportunity to leave because they over estimate their ability to defend themselves

and frankly, so cliche' that it supports the notion that women cannot defend themselves against larger males, and therefore should accept that condition, which is pure bull!!

Straw man argument. That's not what I said

Further, you do not have to give up your femininity by taking MA/SD. That is also cliche' and supportive of the female stereotypic inferiority status quo that some still cling to

Who said you did?

Males that know me here and back home in Ireland have often said that they would never guess me to be a Kukkiwon 2-dan black belt that trains and competes in tournaments (with some kickboxing and swordplay thrown in). Although physically fit and somewhat above average height (5'10"), I am slender at just over 8 stone, love to shop, cook, dance, and like to wear dresses with heels. Furthermore, they also say that they would not try to physically threaten me either

So can they tell you train or can't they? By the way the swprd play should come in handy. Dojang indeed:rolleyes:

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

Anyone who thinks domestic abuse is just about the slaps - well I envy you, because you have no direct experience of domestic abuse

True. It's not comparable

Wibbs wrote:

The false confidence I've seen up close though. A woman I know ended up in hospital, with a fractured jaw and punctured lung when she reckoned her brown belt in karate would protect her. Apparently she could have walked away too, but nope

.
My point exactly

Mikel

panda100 wrote: »

Lets not get all pc about this.Men make up a tiny tiny proprtion of victims of domestic violence.In 90%of cases men are the perpetrators of domestic abuse .Yes domestic violence affects both men and women,but it does not affect us equally,it affects us very unequally and the reasosn for this should be acknowledged and addressed

Really? The largest piece of research in the UK recently was conducted by the British Home Office and it found domestic violence was split roughly 50 50. Is Ireland so different?

As a feminist I fully believe that domestic violence is rooted in outmoded ideas about men’s control and authority over women especially within the family. The unequal power relations that exist in our (capitalist) society as a whole are reflected within personal relationships and therefore reinforce and perpetuate domestic abuse.

Maybe you should base your beliefs on reality rather than blindly following what a particular ideology tells you.

So the answers are for women to take self defence classes and see a psychologist about her self esteem issues

My point was that the reason there is no large scale research into the problem is that it is very likely the results would contradict what you have said. And that wouldn't do would it?

Quite a shocking report here:
http://www.amnesty.ie/amnesty/upload/images/amnesty_ie/campaigns/SVAW/Justice%20and%20Accountability%20-%20Stop%20Violence%20Against%20Women.pdf

Garda statistics for Ireland confirm that over 90 per cent of callouts
are for female victims, and that the perpetrator in over 90 per cent of cases is male – generally

You could drive a bus through the hole in that particular statistic

Similarly, there were 45,000 help-line calls last year to
Rape Crisis Centres, 89 per cent of which were from females, and 97 per cent of perpetrators were male.

And that one

UN statistics on Ireland indicate that only one in ten women or girls even report sexual violence.

So 45k represents 10%. That would be nearly half a million a year.
How many women are in Ireland?
Do me a favour..........

Black Swan

I think I just found the essence of the anti-women's self defense argument contained in a journal article, although a bit more conceptual than found on this thread: McCaughey, Martha (June 1998), "The Fighting Spirit -- Women's Self-Defense Training and Discourse of Sexed Embodiment," Gender and Society 12(3): 277-300. Quote: "The body of feminist discourse is often construed as the object of patriarchal violence (actual or symbolic), and violence has been construed as something that is variously oppressive, diminishing, inappropriate, and masculinist. Hence, many feminists have been apathetic to women's self-defense."

Further, beyond the obvious biological differences, gender appropriateness is a social construction, which, when nurtured during the years of childhood development, is resistant to change, as is the way in which we perceive ourselves as feminine and not masculine; i.e., it's really hard to see ourselves in a self-defense mode, especially when violence is labeled masculine, be it actual or symbolic.

And lastly, this article goes a step further to suggest that women's self-defense is not limited to physical combative techniques (actual), but also non-physical (symbolic) techniques used to mitigate a potentially violent situation, and that a combination of both would greatly reduce potential violence to women as a class in society over time. This is consistent with what we train women (and men) in our MA/self-defense classes: first try to talk your way out, or remove yourself from the scene of potential conflict (including the leaving of an abusive spouse or partner), but if not allowed any other alternatives, then the ability to defend yourself (rather then become an easy victim of violence). And after a potential incident or actual confrontation, to report it (to gardai and other forms of social service intervention).

The suggestion of women's self defense training is not intended as a silver bullet to solve the larger issue of domestic violence, but one of many items to consider in the solution to the greater problem.

Odysseus

I fully agree with you about the SD side of things Blue Lagoon, but with the cases I see if the victim was attending regular SD/MA classes it would decrease the likelihood of being in that position in the first place. I work in a addiction centre and we see some shocking cases at times. The psychological benefits of attending classes in the first place increase self respect, self-belief, esteem, as well as the social aspects of belonging to a club, in my experience you can't meet nicer people than those who train in SD. Though that is a hugh sweeping generalisation.


Its dishearting to see the impact it can have on a persons quality of life. Often we see a violent partner go to jail and the victims quality of life will improve ten fold. Only for the partner to be released and its back to the same situation as before. It can be such a deep rooted issue.

Then you hear stuff like "I never hit her with my fist" the fooker was describing a heel-plam to me and though this was acceptable, I have heard a lot in my time but I always remember this one my blood was boiling with the matter of fact way it was presented to me. [Though it was early in career] In cases like this there are usually so many factors to be addressed and so many agencies needed to be involved to retify the matter that it rarely happens. A sad picture really.

So just a long winded way of say I would want my daughter involved in a combat sport and believe that reduced the risk of her being in that position in the first place, and secondly it would reduce the likelihood of her staying in such a relation.

Red Hand

Agree with Blue and Odysseus. MA/Self defense would be more about instilling self esteem and confidence from a young age so that girls won't end up in situations where others prey on low self esteem. Bullies usually try and pick on the weakest...

NextSteps

So is the conclusion of the self defence debate that confident women don't end up in abusive situations?

Not much help to those already in such a situation, is it, though?

Reku

Mikel wrote: »

Really? The largest piece of research in the UK recently was conducted by the British Home Office and it found domestic violence was split roughly 50 50. Is Ireland so different?

Link(s) please, otherwise this is as baseless a figure to me as Panda100's.

Mikel wrote: »

So 45k represents 10%. That would be nearly half a million a year.
How many women are in Ireland?
Do me a favour..........

So wait, almost 20% of women suffer sexual violence every year?! How're they defining that as I'd some female coworkers who were prone to giving some of the lads a quick smack on the bum as they passed by, surely these men should report this horrific sexual violence so!
Then I remember one girl sat on a lads lap due to lack of chairs and he started bouncing her on his thigh, :eek:OMG he's beating her with his thigh! Call the Gardai!!!:eek:
Unfortunately quite often these reports twist the definitions of violence/sexual assault to put forward a predetermined agenda as opposed to doing genuine research. What's to stop a similarly stupid pro-male group from gathering a group of sleazy lads and getting them to repeatedly go up to the same girl(s) in a night club all trying the same appauling chat up line, by the end of the night I bet everyone of them would have gotten a slap/drink thrown at them => OMG 100% of men suffer violence from women on a night out!
What's that saying: Lies! Damn Lies! And Statistics!

Christ we need some real, unbiased, unadulterated and clear cut data on these issues, not just shock value figures!:(

Looking at that report Amnesty International just lost a lot of credibility with me for publishing it. Worse still they are detracting from the real plight of victims of genuine violence/sexual assault by using the various pieces of dubious data in such a way as to try shock people.
The number of calls to the rape crisis centre is the only statistic that's not just plucking numbers from the air and even that is not specifying UNIQUE callers so for all we know there may be many repeats as coming forward in a non-anonymous way is not that easy and so a few calls would undoubtedly be required to build courage, then throw in those calling on account of being worried about a friend, just as the number of calls to suicide help lines does not necessarily relate to the number of people attempting suicide.

But what we are saying is that gender-based violence is a huge problem, very seriously impacting
at some point on the lives of one in three women and girls – and clearly a very significant proportion
of men are the perpetrators. The only sensible or justifiable reaction to this is, when are we going
to stop it? And, the solidarity and support of men and boys is essential to our campaign if we are
to effect meaningful change.

Again, obvious muddying up the actual figures by selective wording in favour of shock value, "impacting the lives of 1/3 females" does not mean 1/3 females will be victims but rather will know a victim. Otherwise I'll just go back to stockpiling resources for WMDs (you can get a surprising number of things legally off the internet in the EU, you just need to know how to use it;)) and finish off what is an undeserving species if these sort of reports are to be believed.:rolleyes:

justsomebloke

http://www.dewar4research.org/DOCS/dvg-v3.pdf

It seems from this the % of male victims ranges from 19%-34% based on total incidents however as male as less likely to suffer repeat incidents the number of males compare to females actually comes in at around 39%-50%.

So it seems like the sexist drivel that Panda100 is spouting isn't quite true and hence why a lot of times the real problems aren't going to be looked at tackeled properly.

In a perfect world yes I sure it would be great if we look at the problem and think that the best solution is rehabilitating the abuser, however in reality it is probably easier to empower the victim to try and come away from the situation. However the best solution is incorperating both.

Maple

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