Are muslim men that bad ?

DinoBot

This recent article calls for the muslim women to forsake bright lipstick and noisy high heels in an effort to preserve their dignity and avoid rape

Now I dont know the link between lipstick and rape but my question is, are the Muslim men so out of control that they will rape a women for wearing lipstick ??

No wonder alot of muslims are leaving their "Islamic" countries to live in the west.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/24/malaysia.religion

Jannah

There are a lot of weirdos out there, both muslim and non muslim. I ran into (or should I say, was followed to the bathroom by) a muslim man from Tunisia on my holidays in Italy and the dude was a alcohol drinking and serving, daily pork eating, woman chasing scumbag. And he's pretty damn adamant he's a muslim. The only other Muslim male I know thinks that 9/11 is the best thing since sliced bread and thinks he's above even the people he hangs out with.

... Yep, so one could say that I've only seen the 'Bad' Muslim men, but I would be very delighted if I actually met a 'Good' one.

the_new_mr

They are two black sheep.

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote: »

They are two black sheep.

I think the whole "Authorities in Kota Bharu" acount for more than two :D

panda100

DinoBot wrote: »

No wonder alot of muslims are leaving their "Islamic" countries to live in the west.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/24/malaysia.religion

Facts/figures please to back this up???

Many islamic countries such as Iraq (pre US-invasion) and Lebanon are much more forward then western countries when It comes to women rights and womens issues.
This article is just another fine example of sensationalist anti-islam propoganda.The western media has a lot to answer for when it comes to the increasing islamaphobic sentiment in the west.

hivizman

panda100 wrote: »

This article is just another fine example of sensationalist anti-islam propoganda.The western media has a lot to answer for when it comes to the increasing islamaphobic sentiment in the west.

I didn't find the article particularly sensationalist. The writer didn't seem to be aware that the dislike of the Kota Bahru municipality for "heavy makeup, including bright lipstick" and "loud high-heel shoes" is based on a common interpretation of the verse in the Qur'an that describes what women should do to guard their modesty - Surah Al-Nur 24:31, which says in part:

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; . . . and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments.

This verse is interpreted in different ways, and the Kota Bahru city officials have taken a strict approach, which seems to be a fairly common approach among stricter interpreters (see for example this opinion from a fairly conservative Sunni website).

I agree with the original poster's criticism of the official's argument that this interpretation of female modesty is designed to reduce the likelihood of rape. It is significant that, in the Qur'an, men are told first, before women (in the verse before the one from which I quoted) to lower their gaze and guard their modesty, so men need to get their acts together as much as, if not more than, women. The Kota Bahru official's comment blames women for the crimes of men, which is in my opinion completely unacceptable.

the_new_mr

Agree with all that.

jimmycrackcorm

when it comes to women, men have no religion.

Caverna

DinoBot.

I feel sorry for your ignorance.

Asking if Muslim men are out of control is like asking if Irish men are out of control.

Your question could not be more vague,general,offensive,insulting,lacking in knowledge of Malaysian and Islamic culture or downright stupid.

Grow up.

You know full well that not all Muslim men are salivating animals who will rape anyone with lipstick.

They are like all other men, ALL AROUND THIS WORLD. We all have our temptations but we all are able to deal with them appropriately.

Instead of consulting boards.ie, perhaps you should consult the Malaysian embassy or do some research for yourself. Meet with Malaysians, talk with them.

Otherwise, why bother posting? It really is just sensationalist nonsense.

DinoBot

I agree with you hivizman.

I think its a sad state that these rules are being placed as a n extra burton on women living in Islamic countries. If the men were actually forced to live by the rules that are given to them we would not see the need for this.

panda100 wrote: »

Facts/figures please to back this up???

Many islamic countries such as Iraq (pre US-invasion) and Lebanon are much more forward then western countries when It comes to women rights and womens issues.
This article is just another fine example of sensationalist anti-islam propoganda.The western media has a lot to answer for when it comes to the increasing islamaphobic sentiment in the west.

Can you give ONE example of an Islamic law which gives more rights to a woman than we have here in the "west" please.

Caverna wrote:

You know full well that not all Muslim men are salivating animals who will rape anyone with lipstick.

They are like all other men, ALL AROUND THIS WORLD. We all have our temptations but we all are able to deal with them appropriately.

Then why are all the rules and regulations to stop rape always centered around restricting the freedoms of women. I dont see the solution to rape in Ireland as being for women to stop going out wearing lipstick. I don't think the wearing of lipstick would cause a man to rape a women but in the article I posted that was the reason given. How was that sensationalist nonsense ? Are you saying the article is false ??

"Women in a northern Malaysian city ruled by conservative Islamists are being urged to forsake bright lipstick and noisy high heels in an effort to preserve their dignity and avoid rape"
-- so what does this say about the state of the men of that country ?? If they are not that bad why have the ruling ?
Is it needed ? Do you think it will reduce rape in the country ?

irishconvert

DinoBot wrote: »

This recent article calls for the muslim women to forsake bright lipstick and noisy high heels in an effort to preserve their dignity and avoid rape

Now I dont know the link between lipstick and rape but my question is, are the Muslim men so out of control that they will rape a women for wearing lipstick ??

No wonder alot of muslims are leaving their "Islamic" countries to live in the west.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/24/malaysia.religion

Can you tell us how many of the Muslim men you know who are like this?

irishconvert

Jannah wrote: »

There are a lot of weirdos out there, both muslim and non muslim. I ran into (or should I say, was followed to the bathroom by) a muslim man from Tunisia on my holidays in Italy and the dude was a alcohol drinking and serving, daily pork eating, woman chasing scumbag. And he's pretty damn adamant he's a muslim. The only other Muslim male I know thinks that 9/11 is the best thing since sliced bread and thinks he's above even the people he hangs out with.

... Yep, so one could say that I've only seen the 'Bad' Muslim men, but I would be very delighted if I actually met a 'Good' one.

I'm confused. Didn't you say before that you are a Muslim? How is it that you do not know any Muslim men?

damnyanks

I'm living in the UK so there are a few muslim people in the office. Basically the attitude of not wearing bright lipstick , high heels, tight clothing and what not boils down to the fact that women arent really meant to be noticed sexually.

They say this is because they wont get married until 25 - 26ish usually and if following religion wont have had sex.

So just imagine the attidue in Ireland maybe 40 years ago.

DinoBot

irishconvert wrote: »

Can you tell us how many of the Muslim men you know who are like this?

If its zero how could the new law help avoid rape for the women ?

irishconvert

DinoBot wrote: »

If its zero how could the new law help avoid rape for the women ?

Why are you avoiding my question? Do you know any Muslim men? And if so do you think they are "so out of control that they will rape a women for wearing lipstick"?

DinoBot

irishconvert wrote: »

Why are you avoiding my question? Do you know any Muslim men? And if so do you think they are "so out of control that they will rape a women for wearing lipstick"?

Of course I know many muslims men, my best friend is a muslim :rolleyes: You always assume people "attack" Islam out of lasck of understanding of the religion. I have read Quran at least 5 times cover to cover. I would know by hearth at 6 chapters (the small ones of course) Plus I have read countless books on Hadith and legal aspect of Islam. As you are are quite new to Islam, and judging on your previous posts, I would even bet my knowledge is better than yours !

The article stated that "in an effort to preserve their dignity and avoid rape. Authorities in Kota Bharu have distributed pamphlets recommending that Muslim women do not wear heavy makeup and loud shoes when they go out to work in restaurants or other public places."

So, rape is done by men, and here is being said it will be reduced if the women stop wearing lipstick !!!

My question, if you take time to listen, is simple.

How will this reduce rape ? Are the men so bad there that if they see a women wearing lipstick they think its okay to rape her ? And if they see a women with no lipstick then they wont ??

Even my title was a question !!

tbh

irishconvert wrote: »

do you think they are "so out of control that they will rape a women for wearing lipstick"?

well obviously, the authorities who passed the law must think that there is at least SOME relationship between women wearing lipstick and getting raped, otherwise they would not have passed the law. Before we proceed, can you at least accept that point? To clarify, I personally do not believe that muslim men will rape women because they are wearing lipstick, but I believe that passing a law like this sends out the message that those IN CHARGE - those responsible for passing the law - must at some level believe this.

Dudess

Yeah, of course not all Muslim men are gonna feel compelled to rape a girl because she's wearing lipstick and high heels, but apparently they are, according to advocates of this recommendation - the old "they're men, they cannot control it, it's up to the woman to ensure it doesn't happen" mentality.

Pretty insulting to Muslim men really...

tbh

"we could either impose a mandatory 20-year sentence for anyone found guilty of rape, or we can impose a ban on women who wear lipstick".

hivizman

In February last year, there was a story about an Islamic scholar in Malaysia who recommended that women should wear chastity belts to protect themselves from rapists. This caused a lot of stir, with the Malaysian government rejecting the proposal out of hand, and the scholar later claimed that he'd just been joking. A Malaysian organisation called Sisters in Islam asked:

Would it not make sense to raise awareness among men and educate them on how to prevent violence against women rather than blame and control all women for the behaviour of certain men?

A useful discussion of gender issues in Islam that can be downloaded from various places on the Internet, including here is the book Gender Equity in Islam: Basic Principles by Jamal Badawi. There is a detailed discussion of Islam's attitude to physical chastisement (beating) of women in note 14. Reading this, I sense that the verse in the Qur'an (Surah Al-Nisa 4:34) that is often taken as permitting husbands to beat their wives, and various hadith apparently going in the same way, are embarrassments to modern liberal Muslim scholars.

There's a very depressing report here on violence to women in various Muslim countries. Although it dates back to 1993, I sadly have no reason to believe that the situation is any different today.

But is Islam the villain here or is it the patriarchal societies in which Islam seems to be abused as an excuse for violence towards women?

tbh

I think in this case, as in all religions, the word of God is good, it's just mans interpretation of it that's the problem.

Dudess

Yep, like Christianity.

Jannah

irishconvert wrote: »

I'm confused. Didn't you say before that you are a Muslim? How is it that you do not know any Muslim men?

Keep up with the times, buddy and re-read the roll call!
I do know Muslim men, I just have yet to meet a 'good' one

Caverna

Jannah wrote: »

Keep up with the times, buddy and re-read the roll call!
I do know Muslim men, I just have yet to meet a 'good' one

Well you must have never travelled outside your front door!
Also, how do you know if a person that you have met is Muslim or not?

irishconvert

DinoBot wrote: »

Of course I know many muslims men, my best friend is a muslim :rolleyes: You always assume people "attack" Islam out of lasck of understanding of the religion.

The reason I asked you if you know any Muslim men is that I would like you to judge Muslims by the ones you know, not by some article you read, that may or may not be true, about some Muslims in a city in Malaysia. In your own experience are Muslim men as you put it "so out of control that they will rape a women for wearing lipstick"? Is that what you think?

DinoBot wrote: »

I have read Quran at least 5 times cover to cover. I would know by hearth at 6 chapters (the small ones of course) Plus I have read countless books on Hadith and legal aspect of Islam. As you are are quite new to Islam, and judging on your previous posts, I would even bet my knowledge is better than yours !

Perhaps it is, fair play to you.

DinoBot wrote: »

The article stated that "in an effort to preserve their dignity and avoid rape. Authorities in Kota Bharu have distributed pamphlets recommending that Muslim women do not wear heavy makeup and loud shoes when they go out to work in restaurants or other public places."

So, rape is done by men, and here is being said it will be reduced if the women stop wearing lipstick !!!

My question, if you take time to listen, is simple.

How will this reduce rape ? Are the men so bad there that if they see a women wearing lipstick they think its okay to rape her ? And if they see a women with no lipstick then they wont ??

Even my title was a question !!

Ok, to answer your question I don't think this will reduce rape. I think severe punishment to the men that commit rape is what will reduce it. The Qur'an teaches that women should dress modestly. If they choose to ignore this rule then it is their own decision, it should not be forced on them by authorities. And they way they dress is no excuse for them to be raped.

Now please your own question with regard to the Muslims you know. Are they "so out of control that they will rape a women for wearing lipstick"?

irishconvert

Jannah wrote: »

Keep up with the times, buddy and re-read the roll call!
I do know Muslim men, I just have yet to meet a 'good' one

I find that hard to believe. You must not have met many Muslim men.

Jannah

irishconvert wrote: »

I find that hard to believe. You must not have met many Muslim men.

I have met 6 so believe it. All six (and I am talking of these 6 alone and not for the entire muslim male community) were either complete extremists, disrespectful of women or else picked and chose from the religion like a little buffet and ignored the bits they found difficult (like drinking alcohol... but of course, you wouldn't know anything about that, no?)

Like I said before, these are only the men I have met and I am not dismissing the idea that there are better out there. It's just fairly difficult to summon an image of something you've never experienced for your self.

DinoBot

irishconvert wrote: »

Ok, to answer your question I don't think this will reduce rape. I think severe punishment to the men that commit rape is what will reduce it. The Qur'an teaches that women should dress modestly. If they choose to ignore this rule then it is their own decision, it should not be forced on them by authorities.

So you disagree with it being Law in muslims countries ? I thoughts the prophet made it law for women to be covered up, and an oblicgation on ALL muslims women ?

irishconvert wrote: »

Now please your own question with regard to the Muslims you know. Are they "so out of control that they will rape a women for wearing lipstick"?

I would like to think I have NEVER met anyone capable of such a crime.

I have met many from all over the world and one thing I have seen is that muslims in the west can be more respectful of women BUT I have met many of the complete opposite as well. speak to any woman from Egypt for example and ask them are they safe to walk out alone at night.

I think when a law is brought in to reduce rape by making the women dress differently it speaks volumes about the view of women. You may not think a link between lipstick wearing lipstick and rape exists but the people bringing in that law MUST have.
They must have felt if a man saw a woman wearing lipstick it could incise him to rape. Else why bring in the law in the first place ?
Why do you think the Law was being passed ?

sameerrend

Jannah wrote: »

There are a lot of weirdos out there, both muslim and non muslim. I ran into (or should I say, was followed to the bathroom by) a muslim man from Tunisia on my holidays in Italy and the dude was a alcohol drinking and serving, daily pork eating, woman chasing scumbag. And he's pretty damn adamant he's a muslim. The only other Muslim male I know thinks that 9/11 is the best thing since sliced bread and thinks he's above even the people he hangs out with.

... Yep, so one could say that I've only seen the 'Bad' Muslim men, but I would be very delighted if I actually met a 'Good' one.

Hi Jannah,

In regards to what your view is to some of the muslim men. Its what you go looking for, for example you went for your holidays in Italy, I can only assume you were dressed to impress and you were in a club or bar, to be attracting men of that sort. I dont judge people but I know there good and bad people out there, if your looking for good muslim men, look for them in the right places.

Samir

Jannah

sameerrend wrote: »

Hi Jannah,

In regards to what your view is to some of the muslim men. Its what you go looking for, for example you went for your holidays in Italy, I can only assume you were dressed to impress and you were in a club or bar, to be attracting men of that sort. I dont judge people but I know there good and bad people out there, if your looking for good muslim men, look for them in the right places.

Samir

Nope, in fact I was having dinner with my parents in a hotel and when I went to the bathroom I was followed by the dude who tried to force himself on me. Also, I really don't think how I am dressed should make any influence on the respect I am owed by others and for the record, I was n't wearing something that was letting it all hang out- evening dinner with elderly parents.... enough said!! This guy worked in the hotel, and continued to follow me for the entirity of the holiday and it was only when I complained to the manager that he explained about who he was (he just got there from Tunisia and was very peculiar but he still gave him an official warning). The other muslims I have met through school, which isn't exactly the seediest places to meet people!! All I am saying is that I have yet to meet a muslim male that I could in any way like as a human being, but that is not to say they are not out there.

humanji

A man tried to rape you and you didn't mention it until later in the holiday? And the only action you took was to inform the manager?