Are muslim men that bad ?

the_new_mr

Yeah, that probably wasn't a very good move on your part Jannah. Immediate and effective action is the best advice for such a situation.

And you live in Cork, right? I happen to know for a fact that there are plenty of good Muslim men there. I've met plenty of good Muslim men and plenty of bad Muslim men. Thank God, I've met more good Muslim men than bad and I've met literally thousands so you could say that my "sample" is more statistically representative of the entire Muslim population.

tbh

Jannah wrote: »

I have met 6 so believe it. All six (and I am talking of these 6 alone and not for the entire muslim male community) were either complete extremists, disrespectful of women or else picked and chose from the religion like a little buffet and ignored the bits they found difficult (like drinking alcohol... but of course, you wouldn't know anything about that, no?)

Just to add a bit of balance, I travel extensively with work, and I work a lot in Muslim countries. I must say, that I've never met a Muslim who wasn't thoughtful, gentle, caring and kind etc etc. I know you are not denying their existence, I just want to put that out there. Recently on a trip I met a muslim woman who didn't shake hands with men - obviously I didn't know that and actually took her hand instead of doing an "air-shake" - there was absolutely no fuss made about this at all, everyone laughed and when I apologised the girl went out of her way to make me feel like it didn't matter. There was no expectation on me to live by their rules, no judgement of me and it really didn't matter what religion I was or wasn't, it just didn't come into it at all.

It just goes to show that people can believe whatever they want to believe, it's only when they expect others to believe the same that problems are caused.

Jannah

humanji wrote: »

A man tried to rape you and you didn't mention it until later in the holiday? And the only action you took was to inform the manager?

Took him aside and told him, yes, and he was the only person I cared to tell, since he followed the dude aswell when he saw him stalking off. Other than a bit of ranting on his part, he was there for the entirity of the holiday. Not exactly much one can do after, is there? I mean, its over and done with, you've gotta get on with it.

the_new_mr wrote: »

And you live in Cork, right? I happen to know for a fact that there are plenty of good Muslim men there. I've met plenty of good Muslim men and plenty of bad Muslim men. Thank God, I've met more good Muslim men than bad and I've met literally thousands so you could say that my "sample" is more statistically representative of the entire Muslim population.

Who knows? Maybe you're right? Maybe I've just had very, very bad luck with the ole Muslims? But I can't deny that it has made me more resentful of Muslims as a whole, which is sad because I don't like disliking people before knowing them but at this stage its fairly automatic because of how often it happens that the ones I have encountered are off their heads. It's a pity because it's so harmful on the wider Islam community to have people like that representing them every day.

the_new_mr

It's quite ironic that you blame others for being so closed-minded when you yourself are being quite closed minded about this. To "paint everyone with the same brush" despite being told by others (Muslims and non-Muslims alike) that the six people you have met are not representative of the general population is not only closed minded but also dangerous. If you want the world to be a better place, you could perhaps start with trying to be more open to the possibility that not everyone is as bad as the bad guy you met.

Jannah

the_new_mr wrote: »

If you want the world to be a better place, you could perhaps start with trying to be more open to the possibility that not everyone is as bad as the bad guy you met.

guys - plural. Yes, its something I work on but in fairness, if there were better representitives of the religion out there, there wouldn't be bad prejudices against them

the_new_mr

Jannah wrote:

guys - plural.

Yes. You're right. It was a full six people

Jannah wrote:

if there were better representitives of the religion out there, there wouldn't be bad prejudices against them

There are and you are intelligent enough to know that most of the bad prejudice against Islam and Muslim is media and fear inspired.

Jannah

the_new_mr wrote: »

Yes. You're right. It was a full six people

Lol, I sense sarcasm! :P *picks up staff* "Gather members of the Ummah and be interviewed by the weird Corkonian!"

the_new_mr wrote: »

There are and you are intelligent enough to know that most of the bad prejudice against Islam and Muslim is media and fear inspired.

True, I just don't think people should be blamed for having a negative view of Muslims with all that is out there at the moment. Nobody in my school year has a positive image of Islam now because of that fanatical muslim in my year- its a great pity for everyone involved because people are slow to change their minds

Caverna

you should keep your mind open.

I was so close to almost possibly getting worked up aboout you but the_new_mr put his post so eloquently that I thought, yeah i'm not gonna bother getting worked up.

I'm terribly sorry to say this to you Jannah but you are not a very open person. Come on, shake off your naive prejudices. They will only cause anger, resentment and unjust stereotypes.

This is not the only forum you are on and criticizing Islam, and criticism is good, but in your case you are just spurting nagative destructive criticism that slanders 750 MILLION MEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will please hope you reconsider your views as a whole new wonderful world will open up to you.

By the way I have a theory as to why you haven't met any nice Muslims.
It is because you have such a negative view of them that you are not open to meeting them or believeing they are nice.

I implore you to please not reply and tell me "I do try to keep my mind open" because I believe that you will be lying-you said yourself that you have a negative impression of Muslims.

Also, you must be the unluckiest person in the world to have never encountered a nice Muslim! They're a dime a dozen!

the_new_mr

Caverna wrote:

I was so close to almost possibly getting worked up aboout you but the_new_mr put his post so eloquently that I thought, yeah i'm not gonna bother getting worked up.

Thanks. Don't think I'm any Shakespeare though

Caverna wrote:

Also, you must be the unluckiest person in the world to have never encountered a nice Muslim! They're a dime a dozen!

Are you saying we're cheap or something??!!!

Jannah wrote:

Lol, I sense sarcasm! :P *picks up staff* "Gather members of the Ummah and be interviewed by the weird Corkonian!"

Bring it

Jannah wrote:

True, I just don't think people should be blamed for having a negative view of Muslims with all that is out there at the moment. Nobody in my school year has a positive image of Islam now because of that fanatical muslim in my year- its a great pity for everyone involved because people are slow to change their minds

I know what you're saying. It is a shame that that guy is so fanatical (although this is not the correct use of the word since the true meaning of fanatical is not necessarily something bad). But, as Caverna says, people should go out and educate themselves. If I didn't educate myself a little bit, I'd think that Sikhism is all about growing your hair and being violent with everyone and beating your wife (ever seen a Bollywood movie when you were seven?? It's scary stuff).

Just like it is my responsibility to shake off negative prejudices of Jews, the same goes for anyone who has negative prejudices of Muslims.

Victor

I'm wondering if ther eis any linguisitc or cultural (not necessarily religious) difference in the definition of rape. Are these law makers, for example, being very broad and including [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/philandering]philandering[/url] and rape under one law? Are salacious thoughts that aren't yet acts covered by the same law?

DinoBot wrote: »

They must have felt if a man saw a woman wearing lipstick it could incise him to rape.

I don't think wearing lipstick it could incite anyone, other than a very damaged mind, to commit rape. It might, however, be seen as a come-on that leads to inappropriate behaviour and a situation where a man doesn't know when to stop or when to listen to "no". Ever make a mistake as a teenager and do something completely inappropriate, even downright offensive, because you didn't know any better? Contrast that with dragging a strange woman down a lane and beating her senseless and raping her.

Its actually hard to see where the lines are, but we know:
* "dragging a strange woman down a lane and beating her senseless and raping her" is always wrong.
* "kissing and touching a consenting adult" is OK by modern western standards, but unacceptable to many religious people (of whatever religion) if is isn't between married people.

Imagine a situation where a man knows of a woman he likes for whatever reason. He approaches her father and asks for an introduction and if it was OK that they could have a chaperoned meal together. By modern western standards he is insulting the woman by not asking directly, but by other standards, he has probably raped her in his mind already for considering her marriage material.

There is an interesting scene in one of the The Godfather movie that shows a certain attitude in a ultra-conservative Catholic society. After Michael first sees Apollonia, his bodyguards make crude remarks about her, for which her father would have them killed. In a diplomatic moment, Michael apologies and ask would it be possibile to meet her after mass, the following Sunday, which is acceptable to the father.

Are societies all that different?

Jannah

Victor wrote: »

There is an interesting scene in one of the The Godfather movie that shows a certain attitude in a ultra-conservative Catholic society. After Michael first sees Apollonia, his bodyguards make crude remarks about her, for which her father would have them killed. In a diplomatic moment, Michael apologies and ask would it be possibile to meet her after mass, the following Sunday, which is acceptable to the father.

I was just watching that last night- weird!! Wouldn't it be brilliant if society actually was like that?! These days it seems very... crude... I don't know, it's very cut and dry, as in there's practically a one month rule in place for having sex with someone and if you bypass that- well, you're seen as frigid or a loser.

Ahhhh, come back Al Pacino!!!

Caverna wrote: »

you should keep your mind open.

Yes, and I'm making a concious effort to do so, but I'm just having a run of bad luck in who I do meet.

But you know what? I don't think the 'fanatical' guy was a truly bad fellow either. I think he's been in an environment that people have been telling him that such and such is a good thing for so long that he's started to believe it himself and really, none of us can escape the circumstances that we're born into. But there is a fairly 'good' person under it all- he took a whole breaktime just to talk to me about his religion, surely thats not a bad thing really

Rb

I spent some time in Egypt earlier in the year with my girlfriend and to be very, very honest, I wouldn't have let her out of my sight outside of the hotel.

Every man we encountered, with the exception of hotel/restaurant/tour guides, literally stared at her. They couldn't even address her to her face, they just stared at her chest. Even the police officers were making comments whilst we were going through the airport security checks, when walking about town we'd be approached by men who were eyeing her up and they'd come right up to us and make comments.

I'm sorry but "a few black sheep" is pure bullshít as far as I'm concerned. Again, with the exception of staff/wherever money was involved, my girlfriend wasn't shown any respect by men there.

An old housemate of mine lived over there for two years or so and told of times men would actually come up in public and cop a feel of his girlfriend, along with the rest.

This isn't acceptable and it's absolutely inexcusable. I would sincerely advise women to stay away from muslim countries unless they've a male escort for their entire time there.

We even had CHILDREN come up and make comments about her/eye her up/etc.

The staff pretty much everywhere were great but my God, if this is the shít that parents are passing down to their kids over there then they've only themselves to blame when people make comments about the religion and it's attitude towards women (i.e second class citizens in their own country).

I'd certainly go back again but as I said above, would never let the girlfriend out of my sight.

Jannah

Wow Rb, you're the first person who's been so honest about their experiences in a Muslim country!! Your poor girlfriend!! Although I think a lot of the staring isn't so much lust as it is their curiosity of a person who looks fairly different to them. When I was on holidays, random waiters would ramble on over and put their arm beside mine and exclaim at how white I was in comparison!! One even made the comment "I look like a Nigerian compared to you!" and another told me how much Italians love blue eyes because it is so different to what they have there. I really do think that a lot of it was just curiosity more than anything! Especially in a country where women cover up so much and usually have such a dark colouring, it’s a big change. But I do agree, their culture often leaves a lot to be desired, but I'm beginning to think it isn't a religion issue but a cultural one, although one does influence the other.

Caverna

Rb,

I think you need to distinguish between Egyptian and Muslim.

Find me the line in the Holy Qur'an that permits the groping of women and perverted staring at women.

Just because they are Egyptian does not automatically mean they are Muslim but I do accept that seeing as it is predominantly a Muslim country then the chances are that they are "Muslim" but obviously not observant Muslims.

If they were following the preachings of Islam they wouldn't be behaving that way towards your girlfriend.

People on this thread seem to really be struggling with the concept of distinguishing between the religion and the cultures and traditions.

(I'm not saying groping women is a tradition but the general staring and possible ill-treatment of women IS a CULTURAL thing and it is certainly NOT a religious thing.)

Rb

To be honest, the same people were then bowing to mecca a short time later (the rugs were set up in the airport).

It was also the case in Jordan, so to be honest it certainly was confined to the Egyptians. Although, certainly not to the same extent, it was actually mainly the male 7-25 year olds that were at it there. Our guide in Jordan also brought up the fact that they were Sunni muslims and that they were easier going/ more respectful on women, that there was no pressure to wear the burkah and that the majority didn't as a result.

I'm sure it's forbidden in the religion but I can't help but feel that it is a knock on effect from the muslim women wearing hi'jabs everywhere.

Interestingly enough, on that channel 4 programme the other night a muslim woman said that in Cairo the burkah/hijab wasn't worn until the late 1970s and that since then things seem to have gone somewhat backwards.

DenMan

I lived in Bolton for two years and got to know quite a good number of Muslim men and women. Never had any problems with them, in fact I made quite a good few friends over there. I also got invited over for dinner where we discussed the Bible and The Qur'an. Quite a very good chat I do remember. I would say misunderstood they are, especially the men. They are very reserved and polite. They are a very literal people and expect their women to adhere to the same rules as themselves.

hunnybunny

Caverna

Just because they are Egyptian does not automatically mean they are Muslim but I do accept that seeing as it is predominantly a Muslim country then the chances are that they are "Muslim" but obviously not observant Muslims.

Very good point here. Not all Egyptians are Muslim. In fact roughly 10% are Coptic Christians. In Lebanon there are even more Christians as well as minorities in Jordan, Palestine and Syria.
I have lived in the UAE for 1 year and I have met various Arabs both Muslims and Christians. I found both Muslim and Christian Arabs behaviour towards women VERY similar. I found some of the christian Arabs very strange and some were very leery. Believe me, its not confined to the Muslims.

In fact the one Muslim guy I ever met, who has total respect for women, doesn t drink, does his prayers etc was actually an EGYPTIAN. When I first met I assumed he drank and did all the other bad things just because he was Egyptian. I feel bad now as I made assumptions judging on all the other Egyptians I had met.

People on this thread seem to really be struggling with the concept of distinguishing between the religion and the cultures and traditions.

(I'm not saying groping women is a tradition but the general staring and possible ill-treatment of women IS a CULTURAL thing and it is certainly NOT a religious thing.)

Thats hit the nail on the head! People mix Arab culture and Islam! Aarbs are both Muslim and Christian and the two really are not fundamentally diffferent due to culture.
I was in Malayasia a predominantly Muslim country and I experienced zero harrassment, whereas as in Egypt I was followed everywhere. The difference between the two is culture and modernisation. Malayasia would be much more westernised and forward thinking than Egypt. No two Muslim countries are the same!

Caverna

Rb wrote: »

I'm sure it's forbidden in the religion but I can't help but feel that it is a knock on effect from the muslim women wearing hi'jabs everywhere.

That is based on a speculative presumption with no basis in truth whatsoever and is wholly damaging to Islam, the hijab and hijab wearers all around the world.

to suggest that young men have suddenly taken a liking to foreign ladies or even their own ladies and treated them disrespectfully is so wide of the mark it fathoms belief that you would put it forward as a possibility.

Men treating women stretches back a little bit further than the the 70's when hijab wearing took off in Egypt.

philologos

Jannah wrote: »

True, I just don't think people should be blamed for having a negative view of Muslims with all that is out there at the moment. Nobody in my school year has a positive image of Islam now because of that fanatical muslim in my year- its a great pity for everyone involved because people are slow to change their minds

I think it is the responsibility of mankind to resist making blanket statements based on one person and to look to the wider picture of it. True, there may be Islamic fanatics, but then again there are many people who follow Islam and who wish to embrace a tolerant view of people in society. Many people in society fall victim to intolerant views based on misinterpretations of texts, and many people fall victim to intolerant views based on things other than religion. It's down to those involved to be careful in what they are looking at to make sure they have the right perspective, and it's down to those who are observing to try not to generalise about a group of people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBI2zrtAeJ0

Watch from 4:50 onwards and see what harm generalising about Muslims has done in the UK.

hivizman

Thanks for this video, Jakkass. Did you catch the recent "muslim outrage" story in Scotland, where Tayside Police apologised for causing offence by using a picture of a dog (allegedly a "ritually unclean" animal) sitting in a police hat as part of a campaign to publicise a new phone number?

DinoBot

hivizman wrote: »

Thanks for this video, Jakkass. Did you catch the recent "muslim outrage" story in Scotland, where Tayside Police apologised for causing offence by using a picture of a dog (allegedly a "ritually unclean" animal) sitting in a police hat as part of a campaign to publicise a new phone number?

I Don't get your point here, are you saying it was bad reporting and the muslims were not bothered at all ?

hivizman

The Daily Mail used the expression "muslim outrage". I haven't found any reports of specific Muslims expressing "outrage". The press comments (here's the report from the Daily Record) in other papers are a bit more muted - the Daily Record reports a local councillor (who I assume is a Muslim) saying that an advertising campaign based on the picture of a dog would "not be welcomed by all communities". That's a long way from "outrage".

There was a more balanced article in The Scotsman, which actually took the trouble to talk to some Muslims, though the on-line comments on this article are pretty dreadful.

So I'm saying (a) yes it was bad reporting by papers such as the Daily Mail, who have blown things out of proportion (not for the first time :rolleyes:), but (b) no, it is possible that some Muslims were "bothered". However, it's a long way from being bothered to being outraged.

CPT. SURF

spent some time in Egypt earlier in the year with my girlfriend and to be very, very honest, I wouldn't have let her out of my sight outside of the hotel.

Every man we encountered, with the exception of hotel/restaurant/tour guides, literally stared at her. They couldn't even address her to her face, they just stared at her chest. Even the police officers were making comments whilst we were going through the airport security checks, when walking about town we'd be approached by men who were eyeing her up and they'd come right up to us and make comments.

I'm sorry but "a few black sheep" is pure bullshít as far as I'm concerned. Again, with the exception of staff/wherever money was involved, my girlfriend wasn't shown any respect by men there.

An old housemate of mine lived over there for two years or so and told of times men would actually come up in public and cop a feel of his girlfriend, along with the rest.

This isn't acceptable and it's absolutely inexcusable. I would sincerely advise women to stay away from muslim countries unless they've a male escort for their entire time there.

We even had CHILDREN come up and make comments about her/eye her up/etc.

The staff pretty much everywhere were great but my God, if this is the shít that parents are passing down to their kids over there then they've only themselves to blame when people make comments about the religion and it's attitude towards women (i.e second class citizens in their own country).

I'd certainly go back again but as I said above, would never let the girlfriend out of my sight.

I concur Rb. I had the EXACT same experiences with my girlfriend in Morrocco. Is anyone starting to see a pattern here???

DinoBot

CPT. SURF wrote: »

I concur Rb. I had the EXACT same experiences with my girlfriend in Morrocco. Is anyone starting to see a pattern here???

I do wonder if your experience is more of a situational thing. Its like if you go away on holiday to spain and there are loads of english there. They come off very loud heavy drinking type......not really representative of all english people.

I think if you holidayed in Dubai Im sure your experience of the local muslims would be very different then.

Hobbes

DinoBot wrote: »

not really representative of all english people.

Clearly all Spanish people are loud heavy drinking and English speaking. I think I am getting the hang of this game.

the_new_mr

LOL! Classic comment there Hobbes

@Rb
Actually, you're sadly right about Egypt

I currently live here and it's awful but may I say that this is because that so many people have moved so far away from religion now that all morality seems to have gone out the window. Egypt is full of good people but it's also full of sickos unfortunately and that's the sad truth. You can see a huge difference between the behaviour of men with any kind of sense of piety and those with none towards women.

So, can we exclude those who aren't abiding by Islamic teachings? I know that sounds like a cop out but I hope you get what I mean.

And I just typed all that before reading Caverna's excellent post. You put it a lot better than I did.

Rb wrote:

To be honest, the same people were then bowing to mecca a short time later (the rugs were set up in the airport).

Hypocrisy. They seem to draw some kind of distinction in their mind between praying and their actions. This verse fits the bill quite nicely.

Al-Baqara:177
"True piety does not consist in turning your faces towards the east or the west - but truly pious is he who believes in God, and the Last Day; and the angels, and revelation, and the prophets; and spends his substance - however much he himself may cherish - it - upon his near of kin, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and the beggars, and for the freeing of human beings from bondage; and is constant in prayer, and renders the purifying dues; and [truly pious are] they who keep their promises whenever they promise, and are patient in misfortune and hardship and in time of peril: it is they that have proved themselves true, and it is they, they who are conscious of God."

Rb wrote:

Interestingly enough, on that channel 4 programme the other night a muslim woman said that in Cairo the burkah/hijab wasn't worn until the late 1970s and that since then things seem to have gone somewhat backwards.

It's a lot more complicated than that I'm afraid. If I was to go on and on about it, I'd probably end up writing a book (maybe I should actually... though I'm not sure if anyone would read it) but to summarize in bullet points:

1.: Though less women wore hijab in the 70s, people were more religious and God fearing.

2.: The economic state in Egypt has deteriorated at an exponential rate since then (and at an even more alarming rate since a certain man has come into power... ahem) and this has made it more and more difficult for people to get married. As a result, people are actually becoming badly affected by this. Somewhere deep down, they feel they shouldn't have a girlfriend (either because they know it's wrong religiously or because they feel it's not socially acceptable) and they then seem to feel justified somehow in their actions by harassing women.

I'm not justifying it of course. It's completely disgusting and, from a logical point of view, is completely against the whole idea of how you're supposed to behave.

3.: Unfortunately, Egyptian media is becoming overrun with sexual material (whether it be from Western sources such as hip-hop music videos or internally from people who believe it's all part of "progress") and it's sort of heightening the sexual minds of the youth (both boys and girls) to such an extent that it's on their minds a lot more. I once read that men are supposed to think about sex once every 2 minutes on average. I don't experience this and I can honestly say that the society you live in has a huge effect on it having lived in a Western society and a (supposedly) Islamic society (though still more reserved than the Western society). Your environment has a massive effect on what's on your mind and it's easier to "keep the bad thoughts out" as it were when it's not being shoved in your face everywhere you go.

I shall say again that those Egyptians who harass women are not justified in what they do and are not observing religious principles.

The Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) said:
Narrated 'Abdullah: We were with the Prophet while we were young and had no wealth whatever. So Allah's Apostle said, "O young people! Whoever among you can marry, should marry, because it helps him lower his gaze and guard his modesty and whoever is not able to marry, should fast, as fasting diminishes his sexual power."

Absolutely fantastic video there Jakass. Thanks very much for that. It's very telling. You're right about 4:50+. Must watch the rest of that show.

Finally, as for the dog story, I think it is ridiculous that any Muslim should find that offensive. I doubt many did but, if they did, they're ignorant of their own religion. Have they forgotten the hadith that mentions that a prostitute who saw a dog literally dying of thirst in the desert and lowered herself into a well to fill her shoe with water to give to the dog had her sins forgiven? Or have they forgotten that when the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) and his companions were on their way to Mecca, they re-routed so as not to bother a dog giving birth to her puppies?

Notatoxford

the_new_mr wrote: »

They are two black sheep.

Yeah right mate:pac:

Tuesday_Girl

I know a lot of Muslims and some of them are close friends of mine. I have never been mistreated or disrespected by one and I've been to Morocco, Egypt, Tunisia and Turkey. I was alone in Egypt and while I attracted a lot of unwanted attention it was primarily staring or telling me how beautiful I was :rolleyes:, I was never touched and never felt unsafe.

I don't want to generalise or speak for an entire group but the Muslim men I know are kind, respectful and gentle, they would never even raise their voice much less their hand to anybody and I have great friendships with them. I am speaking of my personal experiences only, I don't doubt for one second that some Muslims are violent, disrespectful, etc. but the same goes for any group you want to name. Also, just to point out again that culture and not religion is often at play here, and being Muslim doesn't mean you're an Arab, nor does being an Arab mean you're Muslim.