New VRT system shambles...

Cyrus

pburns wrote: »

Actually, I do considerably less than 15,000 miles a year in total so you're totally incorrect in assuming I am arguing to suit myself or have a vested interest. It's pretty rich throwing that argument at me though. The 'tax-the-polluter' system you are so valiantly championing would suit YOU! In fact it would be tailor made for you! So get off your high-horse and take a look in the mirror before accusing someone else of having a self-serving agenda.

At the end of the day whether or not you buy a performance/high-CO2-emitting car is, for you, a lifestyle choice. You pay yer monies and shut-the-feck-up. Many people, in fact the majority of people are not living in a middle-class urban bubble with Dart, taxi and bus services on their doorstep and do not have this luxury. Are they the ones that should be penalised just so a small percentage can live out their automotive fantasies?



No I don't think you do!!!! You're just repeating this flawed 'tax-the-polluter, tax-the-polluter' mantra because (ironically) if implemented in the way you propose it would suit your particular circumstances :rolleyes:

Did you not say you bought a new car to take advantage of the new system, so yes it does suit you.

I am not championing anything, the minister for the envrionment said he was changing the vrt/tax regime to tax the polluter, that was/is his agenda, im arguing, and i am correct in my argument that it is not the case, this is indisputable.

Actually in my opinion a vrt tax totally goes against the free market and free movement of goods and as such should be scrapped totally with the loss in tax revenue made up in some other way, but thats a totally different days work.

at the end of the day i dont really care, i knew what the road tax would be when i bought the car and i pay it, but it will affect my thinking when i go to buy my next car as i refuse to pay 2k per annum road tax when i use the car so little.

-Chris-

I think there's a point being missed here:

The new VRT & motor tax system will punish the higher emitting cars, that's accepted. The arguement that if you have a high emissions car that you only drive on weekends, and are therefore being unfairly penalised, is well made and correct.

I think the government is trying to dissuade you from buying that car, not because they want to punish you and your minimal mileage, but because some day your car will be second-hand and may be bought by someone who uses it as a daily driver.

By discouraging high-emissions (per Km) vehicles from being imported into the country, the gov't changes the makeup of the general car parc and has a long lasting effect on the cleanliness of the cars driven day-to-day.

As a weekend user of a high-emissions car, you're not the target, just an innocent bystander, but they're not going to change the rules to suit the small minority of weekend drivers when they're trying to change the buying habits of an entire country.

Cyrus

maidhc wrote: »

No it isn't. The wealthy should pay more tax. It is how most fair societies work and isn't begrudgery.

Of course a hole is going to appear in the VRT and motor tax take. And we will see increases in the cost of fuel. Thus people will get what they wanted, more of the tax being shifted from annual/once of taxation and onto pay as you use taxation.

What we have now is a ssytem which penalises expensive/thirsty/polluting cars and benefits small thrifty ones. This seems sensible, although as a car fanatic I would rather it be not the case.

At least we can still tax a V8 for €46 a year if we are willing to buy an old one, and this keeps me happy.




Because you don't need it? You chose to pay the (extremely high) tax that comes with the car. You didn't have to. As you said it is a choice, and nothing wrong with it at all. But a mother with a car full of children has more of a need for a TDI than you do an M3.

the system at the moment doesnt fairly penalise polluting cars, as like i have repeated a hundred times a car can only pollute when it is actually being driven.

i dont really understand what all this talk about mothers with children is about? i need a car, she needs a car, i have chosen to pay the same amount as her but decided to buy second hand to get the model i want.

so she pay say €150 a year road tax and i pay €1500 she pays 16% vrt and i pay 36%, she does 20k per annum and i do 5k, why am i paying so much more tax?

Beta Ray Bill

Limerick-man wrote: »

Hardly, if u can afford an Evo as a daily driver in the first place, a few quid extra on tax isn't going to stop the majority. All it will stop is the people who can just barely scrape the price of one (which i would imagine there aren't too many). Likewise with anything that 2k tax, alot of these are high end, and if someone is will to pay 60, 70, 80K +++ for a car, tax isn't going to be of a worry to them, nor emission, nor fuel costs.

Maybe

but to be sure to be sure I've asked that question over on the MLR with a poll

You could be right

http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=217486

there it the thread.
these guys are Die Hard Evo fanatics btw so it should swing in your favour.

I'm interested to find out myself

Cyrus

AudiChris wrote: »

I think there's a point being missed here:

The new VRT & motor tax system will punish the higher emitting cars, that's excepted. The arguement that if you have a high emissions car that you only drive on weekends, and are therefore being unfairly penalised, is well made and correct.

I think the government is trying to dissuade you from buying that car, not because they want to punish you and your minimal mileage, but because some day your car will be second-hand and may be bought by someone who uses it as a daily driver.

By discouraging high-emissions (per Km) vehicles from being imported into the country, the gov't changes the makeup of the general car parc and has a long lasting effect on the cleanliness of the cars driven day-to-day.

As a weekend user of a high-emissions car, you're not the target, just an innocent bystander, but they're not going to change the rules to suit the small minority of weekend drivers when they're trying to change the buying habits of an entire country.

thanks for your input chris and its a valid argument.

however i think the government have tried to do this in the wrong way, a tax on fuel would encourage the purchase of the most frugal machines and would also discourage needless journeys and have people walk/cycle, use public transport more.

this tax could be on consumer fuel only and have a different regime for commercial purposes.

it would achieve the aim and provide a more equitable spread of the tax burden.

-Chris-

Cyrus wrote: »

thanks for your input chris and its a valid argument.

however i think the government have tried to do this in the wrong way, a tax on fuel would encourage the purchase of the most frugal machines and would also discourage needless journeys and have people walk/cycle, use public transport more.

this tax could be on consumer fuel only and have a different regime for commercial purposes.

it would achieve the aim and provide a more equitable spread of the tax burden.

I agree this is the ideal, but it's gonna take a finance minister with grapes the size of watermelons to even think about dreaming about making such a significant change.

If one does, though, they'll have my FULL support!

L-M

grahambo wrote: »

Maybe

but to be sure to be sure I've asked that question over on the MLR with a poll

You could be right

http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=217486

there it the thread.
these guys are Die Hard Evo fanatics btw so it should swing in your favour.

I'm interested to find out myself

Will be interesting to see this actually, i'd love to see only replies from people who could actually afford one in the first place, without having to sell the house to fund it:P

Zube

AudiChris wrote: »

As a weekend user of a high-emissions car, you're not the target, just an innocent bystander, but they're not going to change the rules to suit the small minority of weekend drivers when they're trying to change the buying habits of an entire country.

There is one odd exception, which is that you can buy a horribly inefficient big-block 60s American car, and drive about doing 8 mpg in your 8 litre motorised sofa, and the Government will give you a tax break.

This actually is sensible from an ecological point of view, since it's always greener to keep an old car running than scrap it and build a new one, but I'm surprised the Government hasn't killed classic cars in a rush of CO2 hysteria.

L-M

Zube wrote: »

but I'm surprised the Government hasn't killed classic cars in a rush of CO2 hysteria.

I hope this day never comes, i say kill the cows before we kill the cars.:P

maidhc

Cyrus wrote: »

so she pay say €150 a year road tax and i pay €1500 she pays 16% vrt and i pay 36%, she does 20k per annum and i do 5k, why am i paying so much more tax?

Because that is the car she bought. You could pay the same or less. Everyone has the choice to do what they want and pay as much or as little as they want.

The reason we can't have a straight tax on fuel is we do not have enough alternatives to private cars. Maybe in 50 years we may do. we rely on trucks to shift goods and most of the working population commute. A large increase on fuel would make anywhere other than dublin even less attractive for business/living and would drive inflation stone mad.

There are more issues at stake other than your own particular lifestyle.

green-blood

same point, different thread

Needing a family bus, we decided on diesel and long term investment, bought our first new car ever, Sept 07 reg Ford s-Max, 7 seater, 2.0 TDCI.... grand....

So December comes along and John Gromley has a woody (renewable resource ya see) for CO2 and I have 4 grand wiped off the car over night, and I have to pay 50% more road tax than an S-Max bought in 08 - Icreate how much more CO2 by the way???

If a green party rep comes to my door in the local elections he'll end up buried in our composter

can we stop talking about emissions while we are at it and remember only CO2 is being considered!!

MSporty

All I can say is that the new tax rates wouldnt put me off buying a high emissions car, its 500 euro extra on top of the old top tax rate of 1500. Ill just stay in for a few saturday nights to pay for it. The new tax rates only put off people who were used to paying 5-6 hundred euro in road tax per year, its a big jump from that rate to the new 2000 euro a year rate.

maidhc

MSporty wrote: »

All I can say is that the new tax rates wouldnt put me off buying a high emissions car, its 500 euro extra on top of the old top tax rate of 1500. Ill just stay in for a few saturday nights to pay for it. The new tax rates only put off people who were used to paying 5-6 hundred euro in road tax per year, its a big jump from that rate to the new 2000 euro a year rate.

+1.

I'll be buying a new (old) car next yr, it will probably be something polluting. The tax is a non issue for me.

Zube

MSporty wrote: »

The new tax rates only put off people who were used to paying 5-6 hundred euro in road tax per year, its a big jump from that rate to the new 2000 euro a year rate.

Yes, in the case of the Scoobies, Evos and S2000s, the old system was distorted in their favour. Just as a sensible 2 litre diesel looked bad beside a weedy 1.6 petrol, so a 2 litre 300bhp rice rocket looked cheap to tax beside something with a flat six and the same power output.

Cyrus

maidhc wrote: »

Because that is the car she bought. You could pay the same or less. Everyone has the choice to do what they want and pay as much or as little as they want.

The reason we can't have a straight tax on fuel is we do not have enough alternatives to private cars. Maybe in 50 years we may do. we rely on trucks to shift goods and most of the working population commute. A large increase on fuel would make anywhere other than dublin even less attractive for business/living and would drive inflation stone mad.

There are more issues at stake other than your own particular lifestyle.

i realise that there is more at stake than my own life style FFS, im getting annoyed some of my comments were tongue in cheek due to pburns attitude. but to say we cant have a straight tax on fuel is nonsense, of course we can, and i have already suggested that it could work seperately for private and commerical thereby negating some of the inflationary concerns.

people in the country moan about lack of public transport etc but a lot of people have made a conscious decision to live further outside towns to afford a bigger house, again a choice they made.

also 99% of people commuting do so on their own, there are no car pooling initiatives, why? because irish people dont like that sort of thing :rolleyes:

pburns

Cyrus wrote: »

I am not championing anything, the minister for the envrionment said he was changing the vrt/tax regime to tax the polluter, that was/is his agenda, im arguing, and i am correct in my argument that it is not the case, this is indisputable.

I'm a bit confused trying to decipher this sentence but from what I can make out you're still banging on about how VRT/road tax has been transformed in one fell swoop into a full-fat carbon tax. Just because Gormless may have tried to sell it thus while he was talking out of the side of his arse doesn't make it so. VRT is not exactly a new phenomenon. But I guess it suits the general thrust of your argument so whatever...

Cyrus wrote: »

Actually in my opinion a vrt tax totally goes against the free market and free movement of goods and as such should be scrapped totally with the loss in tax revenue made up in some other way, but thats a totally different days work.

Yeah, as if the other sections of the economy aren't already sqeeking at the pips under various stealth taxes. The miscalculated VRT changes and fall in car sales have already had a substantial effect on Exchequer returns I'd wager.

Cyrus wrote: »

at the end of the day i dont really care, i knew what the road tax would be when i bought the car and i pay it, but it will affect my thinking when i go to buy my next car as i refuse to pay 2k per annum road tax when i use the car so little.

You have the right idea here. If you want something, buy it, pay for it and shut the feck up. If it makes you think about your next car purchase the new system is achieving part of it's original aim.

Cyrus

pburns wrote: »

I'm a bit confused trying to decipher this sentence but from what I can make out you're still banging on about how VRT/road tax has been transformed in one fell swoop into a full-fat carbon tax. Just because Gormless may have tried to sell it thus while he was talking out of the side of his arse doesn't make it so. VRT is not exactly a new phenomenon. But I guess it suits the general thrust of your argument so whatever...



Yeah, as if the other sections of the economy aren't already sqeeking at the pips under various stealth taxes. The miscalculated VRT changes and fall in car sales have already had a substantial effect on Exchequer returns I'd wager.



You have the right idea here. If you want something, buy it, pay for it and shut the feck up. If it makes you think about your next car purchase the new system is achieving part of it's original aim.

if reading is an issue try this

http://www.nala.ie/

some good courses for you there

here is is again, ill break it up

I am not championing anything,

the minister for the envrionment said he was changing the vrt/tax regime to tax the polluter, that was/is his agenda,

im arguing,

and i am correct in my argument

that it is not the case,

this is indisputable.

what is the original aim of the tax changes? to stop people importing high performance cars? i thought it was to reduce co2 emissions?

maidhc

Cyrus wrote: »

people in the country moan about lack of public transport etc but a lot of people have made a conscious decision to live further outside towns to afford a bigger house, again a choice they made.

Some people have. I wouldn't say a lot. Ireland is too sparsely populated to have a usuable public transport system for anywhere other major population centres. And people do live and work in places like Clare and Donegal.

Zube

Cyrus wrote: »

what is the original aim of the tax changes? to stop people importing high performance cars? i thought it was to reduce co2 emissions?

The hint is in the name: Vehicle Registration Tax. It's not a Carbon Tax, it's the same old VRT system with the idiotic cubic capacity basis replaced by the slightly less ridiculous CO2 figure.

Your particular issue seems to be that the tax on Evos went up, but that was just one of the daft things about the old system. Just as the old system encouraged us to buy paddy-special weedy petrol engines, it also encouraged us to buy small capacity high-stress engines like the Evos instead of a BMW six, say.

Cyrus

Zube wrote: »

The hint is in the name: Vehicle Registration Tax. It's not a Carbon Tax, it's the same old VRT system with the idiotic cubic capacity basis replaced by the slightly less ridiculous CO2 figure.

Your particular issue seems to be that the tax on Evos went up, but that was just one of the daft things about the old system. Just as the old system encouraged us to buy paddy-special weedy petrol engines, it also encouraged us to buy small capacity high-stress engines like the Evos instead of a BMW six, say.

i dont care about tax on evos

it is now supposed to be a carbon tax, in reality its the same horrible tax that was supposed to be gotten rid of when we became part of the EU

peasant

Cyrus wrote: »

in reality its the same horrible tax that was supposed to be gotten rid of when we became part of the EU

precisely ...they just had to give it a different name and a slightly green hue in order not to fall out with the EU.

Zube

Cyrus wrote: »

it is now supposed to be a carbon tax, in reality its the same horrible tax that was supposed to be gotten rid of when we became part of the EU

Jesus wept.

It is not a carbon tax! We all know it's the same old VRT, that's why it's called Vehicle Registration Tax, not Carbon Tax.

Cyrus

Zube wrote: »

Jesus wept.

It is not a carbon tax! We all know it's the same old VRT, that's why it's called Vehicle Registration Tax, not Carbon Tax.

jesus is bawling

vrt as it stands now, is a tax levied on your vehicle based on the level of Co2 it emits ergo it is now a carbon tax

Beta Ray Bill

peasant wrote: »

precisely ...they just had to give it a different name and a slightly green hue in order not to fall out with the EU.

2 Birds
1 Stone
And a hell of a lot of annoyed prospective sports car owners.

Do ya wanna know what really get me the most!?

The likes of EVO's STI's RX8's etc
These car were designed to give ordinary people the chance to own a car which has close to super car performance without the high price.

But the Irish Government seems to be doing all it can to take that away from us.

I suppose I am a wee bit biased
I own one of the above and I want another
I can just about comfortably afford to run the one I have. Bu this new Tax means I will NEVER own a new one (At least not in this country) It's sickening really

I know that pburns and zube think the new system is better but its taken away from me my passion for these types of car. A Passion so strong that I am willing to leave the country, my friends, my job (which I really like) and family to get one.

I don't think you guys realize whats been taken away from people like me. Yes I can bitch an moan about it etc etc, but hey... T.I.I. and in the end it will force me to leave.

Zube

Cyrus wrote: »

vrt as it stands now, is a tax levied on your vehicle based on the level of Co2 it emits ergo it is now a carbon tax

You need an income from somewhere in order to afford to pay VRT, so it's an income tax. It's a tax added to the value of a car, so it's a Value Added Tax. Some people buy and tax cars with money from their parents, so it's a Gift Tax, while others use money they inherited, so it's an Estate Duty.

Back in the real world, a carbon tax is a tax levied per unit of carbon emitted, and VRT isn't one, any more than it's an income tax.

-Chris-

Cyrus wrote: »

jesus is bawling

LOL!

grahambo wrote: »

I know that pburns and zube think the new system is better but its taken away from me my passion for these types of car. A Passion so strong that I am willing to leave the country, my friends, my job (which I really like) and family to get one.

I don't think you guys realize whats been taken away from people like me. Yes I can bitch an moan about it etc etc, but hey... T.I.I. and in the end it will force me to leave.

In all honesty, what's your current tax versus the new tax? €590 versus €2,000. I think the expense of moving country and missing your family and friends will probably negate the additional effort of earning an extra €1,400 per year. A bit of overtime or a few less pints (or being a little more judicious with your right foot) would bridge that gap fairly quickly.

There's a lot of hyperbole going on in this thread from both sides...

Zube

grahambo wrote: »

I can just about comfortably afford to run the one I have. Bu this new Tax means I will NEVER own a new one

As I said earlier, get a grip. If you can afford a €66,000 sticker price, €72,000 is not beyond reach with some extra planning. If you can afford the €10K+ a year such a new car will lose in depreciation, €1500 extra in tax is not that serious.

Beta Ray Bill

True

But you have to remember in places like OZ there is no VRT
Road TAX is cheap
and the Cars are Dirt Cheap as they just import from Japan.

I could have a Evo X over there for around €30,000 compared to the €63,000 its costs here.

Zube

grahambo wrote: »

I could have a Evo X over there for around €30,000 compared to the €63,000 its costs here.

Well, grahambo, if you had put you gripe more directly early on, I think everyone would have entirely agreed with you:

1) As motorists, we are getting shafted
2) Certain other countries are not as bad
3) The new VRT scheme has hit some high performance cars hard
4) It's not a carbon tax.

No argument from me on any of those points.

Traumadoc

Australia has abundant natural resourses and a higher corporation tax, we have low corporation taxes. The government need to get the money from somewhere.
I bet with the current economic situation road tax will be increasing to offset the loss in revenue from VRT.