Job losses in Architectural offices

von Neumann

Don't want to scare munger, but heard trough a good friend that one of the large Dublin practices has left 100 go out of 250.

Has anybody else heard this?

Sorry if anybody here was involved.

Mellor

The practice you refer to, (can only be one), left alot go, I don't know if it was 100 though

topcatcbr

gman2k wrote: »

I was let go on Friday, along with one possibly two others..... everyone else got a 10% cut

So if anyone knows of firms hiring :-) let me know!

It'll give me a good bit of time to go and finish my self build down in the South East!

Sorry to hear this

Good luck job hunting

muffler

gman2k wrote: »

I was let go on Friday, along with one possibly two others

As has been posted it is indeed sad news. I hope something turns up really soon for you.

Its getting more and more common to hear about the numbers being laid off and its the same with the auctioneers and solicitors.

Retro-Fit

Boo hoo! sad news indeed, c'mon folks we always knew it was going to come to this, construction is heavily cyclical, architecture doubly so, how long could we go on building houses for builders and turning the island into one vast Bundoran. Stop whingin, all technicians need to be upskilled for the transition to the low energy ecologically sensible future. Don't mind trying to be architects. Technicians can be something more usefull, there is a desire out there for a building professional who can knit together the new technical disiplines of energy, ecology and quality of life. QS/Project managers will always go for the cheapest immediate solution and mechanical engineers just throw oversized erquipment at every problem. If you are out of a job, scream at your old college faculty to provide courses and train you fill the void in the design team.

Ireland, As a small mobile economy can position itselvelf to benefit from the turmoil in liquidity and solvency in the financial markets. We can ackowldge that there will be no bounce and we are seeing the end of expanding markets and the begining of descent economics. We have seen the end of growth, can we have a society that can function without it or thrive because it acknowledges that fact.

RKQ

Sad news indeed. We all knew it would slacken off but nobody saw this coming... not this bad so quickly.
Poor old George is quite surprised at the extent of the credit crunch. Wall street, Europe, The Government and the Banks were all caught out.
Things will get better but it will take a while. The next 18 months is about surviving I'm afraid.

sydthebeat

the questn is... are things in a case of suspended animation....??? or is it full on brake time....???

will the budget pump prime things.. i wouldnt think so, they cant give much away in it...
what i would love to see is banks, under pressure from government, force builders to slash asking prices of available houses... make them take the loss in order to clear the existing backlog... about 100K off every 3 bed semi available... and bring prices back into a realistic 2-3 times average annual income bracket....

maybe??

von Neumann

Retro-Fit wrote: »

Boo hoo! sad news indeed, c'mon folks we always knew it was going to come to this, construction is heavily cyclical, architecture doubly so, how long could we go on building houses for builders and turning the island into one vast Bundoran. Stop whingin, all technicians need to be upskilled for the transition to the low energy ecologically sensible future. Don't mind trying to be architects. Technicians can be something more usefull, there is a desire out there for a building professional who can knit together the new technical disiplines of energy, ecology and quality of life. QS/Project managers will always go for the cheapest immediate solution and mechanical engineers just throw oversized erquipment at every problem. If you are out of a job, scream at your old college faculty to provide courses and train you fill the void in the design team.

Ireland, As a small mobile economy can position itselvelf to benefit from the turmoil in liquidity and solvency in the financial markets. We can ackowldge that there will be no bounce and we are seeing the end of expanding markets and the begining of descent economics. We have seen the end of growth, can we have a society that can function without it or thrive because it acknowledges that fact.

I admire your idealism, but I think people can be forgiven for not having crystal balls.

Mellor

sydthebeat wrote: »

and bring prices back into a realistic 2-3 times average annual income bracket....

maybe??

Maybe i'm showing my age, but 2-3 times the average income,
I doubt that will ever happen (was it ever like that?)
With the current average, that would make an average house 100k

sydthebeat

Mellor wrote: »

Maybe i'm showing my age, but 2-3 times the average income,
I doubt that will ever happen (was it ever like that?)
With the current average, that would make an average house 100k

if the site value was restricted... youd find a lot of accessible dwelings would be in the 120-150k bracket... which would be affodable.

the biggest problem was land values rocketing and 'flipping' earning super profits without any significant change in physical assets. All these profits were based on 'sentiment'... ie that the demand would still be there when they eventually build....

i know a particular piece of land in portarlington that was flipped 3-4 times, each time greater densities were given permission, eventually 3 storey apartment blocks were started, two were built (hardly any apartments sold) and work has ceased, with another block erected but decaying in its timber frame form... a complete eyesore, and a testement to the greed of the developers who kept wanting more and more....

Builderfromhell

Don't want to go too much off topic but many people saw this coming. There are many forums which deal with Ireland's house prices and economy. Anyone who suggested that the future wasn't rosy was accused of 'talking the economy down'.
There were economic reports advising the Government and the people of what was happening. Vested interests kept the hype going and everyone wanted to get on the 'property ladder'. No one wanted to see the reality. Property in Ireland is not worth what it is still priced at.

ConfusedTech

It was written in the sand last year that this would happen, but I think that what is making this worse is that the world economy is up sh creak without a paddle also, so this situation is not neccesarily part of the standard cyclical model for any economy. I think that we are entering a new era and possibly from a recession into a depression. What is most important is how we deal with this and accept it. Moving on is what will create good character.

Builderfromhell, you are totally right, but thats a catch 22 really isnt it? If you talk it down, you can talk it into a recession, if you do the positive thinking and ignore it, you can make very bad decisions, especially if the recession kicks in anyhow. the problem is that the higher powers had no plan for this, and should have been prepared.

Retro fit, re your 'boo hoo' comment, please remember that you speak of people who are or have lost their jobs, people with mortgages, families and in the current situation dont stand a chance of getting a job. Yes the industry is artifically inflated and needs to drop, but there are talks of up to 30% drop in employment in teh constrcution industry up to Christmas and possibly more to follow. I hear of 5 practices lining up their next batch to go already, and have already seen off a number of colleagues to the other side of teh world. It is a quiet depressing time for those of us who have lost our jobs or investments or pensions in the past few months, even though some of us saw it coming...

RKQ

Well said Confused Technician, I agree fully. Nobody saw the world recession / depression.

Some say this has never happened before, we have entered unchartered territory!

sinnerboy

RKQ wrote: »

Well said Confused Technician, I agree fully. Nobody saw the world recession / depression.

Some say this has never happened before, we have entered unchartered territory!

Who knows - maybe something good will come out of it .

We are in for a ****ty 12 months , but I am optimistic for over the medium term .

We did not have the EU in the 30's . We do now .

We also have the potential for a new US president eager to build bridges with the EU

China and the Middle Eastern economies are all heavily invested in Western economies - i.e. what they earn in exports they use to make foreign direct investment in the Western economies

Never before in the history of the Earth have we been so transparently
inter dependant .

Something amazing will come of all this .

Builderfromhell

Fully agree with above posts.
I saw this coming years ago and have invested all my money in farming, forestry, fisheries etc.
I am however resigned to the fact that the old world order is being wrapt up and a new system will have to replace it.
I'm not sure I would want, or do want, the existing capitalist system to be repaired so it can continue to impoverish the majority of mankind.
As a parent, I fear for my childrens future, but still see a need for a major change in how the world uses its resources.
Geting back to the Arch Board side of things, if we had spent the last 10 years designing and building sustainable communities, energy efficient housing, alternative transport systems etc. we would probably be in much better shape today.

topcatcbr

I think we have been at this point several times throught history and the usual result is a war of some sort. Hopefully this will not be the case this time. Totally off topic. Sorry

ConfusedTech

Topcat, you are totally correct, and if you look at the Russian president, very likely in the near future. Dont be sorry, take heart from it though, as it is always a good sign that the building industry will pick up afterwards! Your point is therefore not off the point of topic.

guntermurray

As of now, I (a qualified and experienced arch. tech.) have been made redundant. I have no redundancy pay, no job, a mortgage, an unemployed partner and a child. The company I work for is in serious trouble, and have made the decision as late as it could be made, and don't have the money to pay me this week's wages until next week at the earliest. What am i going to do? Been applying for various jobs, including bar work and cant get anything.:(:confused:

ConfusedTech

guntermurray, sorry to hear that and all I can say is that I am in the same position as yourself. My only advise is to go down to social welfare asap and sign on. They will not pay you for any days before you go to them. Check on line what they require. 2 forms of id, 2 bills your P45 etc, and if you cant get these go down anyway. Then go to the local health board in your area and ask for mortgage asistance forms and advanced payments, which they will assist you on. You paid your PRSI, and that is what it is for. The only problem is that it will take 8 weeks minimum to process you, but other then that, the system works and will take care of you. (The Health Board will give you emergency and advance payments if required) Good luck in your search for work. Your attitude is right. Apply for any job, as there is no point in restricting yourself to the construction industry.

guntermurray

ConfusedTech wrote: »

guntermurray, sorry to hear that and all I can say is that I am in the same position as yourself. My only advise is to go down to social welfare asap and sign on. They will not pay you for any days before you go to them. Check on line what they require. 2 forms of id, 2 bills your P45 etc, and if you cant get these go down anyway. Then go to the local health board in your area and ask for mortgage asistance forms and advanced payments, which they will assist you on. You paid your PRSI, and that is what it is for. The only problem is that it will take 8 weeks minimum to process you, but other then that, the system works and will take care of you. (The Health Board will give you emergency and advance payments if required) Good luck in your search for work. Your attitude is right. Apply for any job, as there is no point in restricting yourself to the construction industry.

Thanks for the support. Just a question, you seem to have done your homework. I haven't looked into signing on at all, cos i stupidly never thought it would come to this. I always sort held up the hope that I'd find something. I spoke to my accountant who was useless. She reckons I may have trouble signing on, because I'm out of college since 2005, I've only been working three years. As I was deducted at source, and each company at this stage now will be paying tax from 2006, so basically my tax aint paid yet! Will that be a problem?

No6

guntermurray wrote: »

Thanks for the support. Just a question, you seem to have done your homework. I haven't looked into signing on at all, cos i stupidly never thought it would come to this. I always sort held up the hope that I'd find something. I spoke to my accountant who was useless. She reckons I may have trouble signing on, because I'm out of college since 2005, I've only been working three years. As I was deducted at source, and each company at this stage now will be paying tax from 2006, so basically my tax aint paid yet! Will that be a problem?

We seem to be straying off tread here so apoligies to the mods but if you were deducted at source ie a paye worker and have been working for three years you should be fine. You company would have to make P35 (I think) returns every few months for PRSI payments so you should be fine, as advised above go to your social welfare office and sign on and bring payslips etc with you. Now if you were self employed on contract then thats a different matter and you'll get nothing!!!

muffler

guntermurray, I am sorry to hear of your plight and good advice has been offered here but unfortunately thats as far as we can go with the issue on this forum.

There are other forums here that can deal with your personal/finanacial circumstances.

Hope all works out OK for you.

Retro-Fit

Confused tech, Guntermurray.

I'm sorry for your predicament guys. I had ten years experience in Architects offices, I gave it all up 2 years ago and went back to college full time. Couldn't get into Masters course with my Dip Arch Tech so I went back to undergraduate Planning/sustainible development. It was like that Adam Sandler movie where he goes back to elementary school. Full of kids but its piss easy for somone with technician background. Thank God there were 4 other mature students in my class. A carpender, an architect an ESB engineer and a hippy. Financially its tough, the grant is only €3.5k and my savings are almost totally eaten up. However as our society and economy is undergoing a teutonic shift, graduates will be well placed to take advantage of a sector that will have huge demand for specially trained staff. I also have been doing courses in Building Energy and doing a couple of Audits every week can help pay the bills. It would be really tough to return to education supporting a partner and child and i'm sure the return to education fund is measily. I'd love to tell you things will get better, but this isn't a cyclical 80's style recession. At least 3 years to get rid of the 75,000 empty units, 3 years to build up banks assetts. Dubai, bahrain and Abu Dabai are going to slow to a stop soon also. Where will Ireland get its income from in the next decade. If you can, bite the bullet and get back into education, you might be allowed start a course that commenced in september.

My cycnicism in an earlier post was directed at those who should be keeping an eye out for staff in the Architecture sector, the RIAI. They were well aware that increased staff levels were unsustainable and didi not address the need to provide specilism skills to technicians. It could be interpreted that Graduate Architects are generalists, Technicians idealy are specialists, in a recession you need generalists. There are niche areas opening up for specialists in the building/retrofitting area, with your backgrounds in building this could be an option to look into these niche areas. Its better to light a candle than curse the darkness as I was told. Best of Luck with all the free time.

ConfusedTech

One last point (Sorry Muffler). Just to clarify some points made. If you paid PRSI as an employee, ie deducted by employer, you may be entitled to job seekers benefit for a period of time (approx €198 pw). If you were self employed/contract, you will be assessed, but still possibly be elligible for benefit. I didnt think I would need it either and regret not going down earlier, as at the end of the day you paid your tax, its now payback... Staying on the point, I am surprised at the amount of job losses and the amount of planned losses. A seperate thread may be a good idea to answer specific questions on this, as many people really dont know what to do, where to go, and what they are entitled to. Many company managers dont know and there is a lot of bad advice out there. ALL of the staff let go in our offices were given different advise from the dole offices and all ended up going back again with further information. FIN!

muffler

Maybe someone can start a thread in the State Benefits forum. There are people there who work for various agencies who should be able to provide some good advice.

I wish we could allow further input here but we really have overshot the runway at this stage so I will have to insist that we leave it at that lads.

Im not even happy with saying that myself but Im sure you will all understand.

guntermurray

muffler wrote: »

Maybe someone can start a thread in the State Benefits forum. There are people there who work for various agencies who should be able to provide some good advice.

I wish we could allow further input here but we really have overshot the runway at this stage so I will have to insist that we leave it at that lads.

Im not even happy with saying that myself but Im sure you will all understand.

Many thanks for all your kind support and helpful advice. I also wish to extend my appreciation to the MODS for their patience in allowing this thread to run as long as it did off topic and I apologise for them having to do that. I was aware when posting that my original question was not specifically ArchTech related, however, I did feel the need to seek helpful advice from my professional peers rather than AN Other.

Again, thanks.

muffler

You have our best wishes as does everyone affected by the current economic climate.

gpjordanf1

Hi

Myself & 4 colleagues were let go with more to follow. we were looking to go to a 3 day week, but it wasn't viable for the amout of staff. I had 12 years of service behind me. Its heart breaking stuff.
I feel bitterly let down by our industry & government.
I will use the time to re-train in a completely different sector. I will never return to CAD again.
Hope everyone else fairs better, good luck guys!

Builderfromhell

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

Hi

Myself & 4 colleagues were let go with more to follow. we were looking to go to a 3 day week, but it wasn't viable for the amout of staff. I had 12 years of service behind me. Its heart breaking stuff.
I feel bitterly let down by our industry & government.
I will use the time to re-train in a completely different sector. I will never return to CAD again.
Hope everyone else fairs better, good luck guys!

Sorry to hear gpjordan,
Hope you survive this difficult time.

topcatcbr

Sorry to hear this jordan

smashey

This thread is beginning to depress me.

gpjordanf1, 12 years is a long time so good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Poor Uncle Tom

I got a serious wake up call myself yesterday. It made me question what I could do as a back up career, not a hell of a lot TBH, I WILL keep going. I've got a family and staff to look after and I believe the work is still out there.

To any employers out there, I know you have a business to run but, please remember your staff were with you in the good times, a little bit of loyalty to them in the tough times is worth a lot.

archtech

Unfortunately its becoming a daily occurrence of late to hear about AT's, architects etc loosing their jobs. one wonders who will be next to be affected.

@poor uncle tom, I totally agree with what your saying and many employers are doing their best to hold onto their staff, but when there's no funds to pay staff nor the prospect of getting any, there comes a time when they have to let them go. I know of a case where the employer has given up their car a 5 Series BMW, to help cut costs among doing other things... Most guys I know find it hard and don't want to have to let staff go.

gpjordanf1

smashey wrote: »

This thread is beginning to depress me.

gpjordanf1, 12 years is a long time so good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Hi Guys

Update

Thanks for the words of encouragement, things are looking up a little bit, spoke to some friends in the field around the country and have confirmed contract work from two of them to start with. Probably one or two jobs a month on average, see how it works out. Also my employer has also expressed an interest in continuing with a little contract work as it comes in. I specialise in Fire safety certs & supervision also.

I'm still going to re-train, so with a bit of work coming in, it should cushion the blow until I make my re-adjustment.

Thanks again & goodluck guys!

Mellor

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

To any employers out there, I know you have a business to run but, please remember your staff were with you in the good times, a little bit of loyalty to them in the tough times is worth a lot.

The down side is, that the longer they hold on to staff at a loss, when the time comes to bit the bullet more staff have to get let go.

Poor Uncle Tom

I don't think that needs to be the case, mellor. What we did here is lined up all the work currently on the books and divided it out, obviously we all work on each job, but we appoint a principal for each first. There is new work coming it, it's just down by about 40% on 8 months ago. We are OK for this year, to be looked at again in February 2009.

Yes, the work would last longer with less staff, but, I will not change the work dynamic for the sakje of posponeing what may be inevitable. We have adapted the Titanic approach, not all go down together, but rather, sing and play on while the ship sinks.

On a much lighter note, I think it is the employers job to secure the workforce as best possible and diversification is always an option. The staff here don't mind going on site and doing hands on Clerk of Works jobs for 6 months at a time if needs be. It will be good experience for them. We have applied for planning permission for 2 houses, one urban, one rural weak structural area, and when they come through, we are going to build through to finish and sell on. Work is work and I've got the sites with a while.

I'll keep you updated.

Mellor

Tom I think you missed the point.
In your case, you appear to have the work until Feb 2009. Obviously work is down and will be reviewed at a later date. I wasn't refering to making cuts to stretch out work (which would be bad imo)
I was refering to when it gets to the stage that the company are in the red, operating at a loss, and yet don't make cuts out of hope/loyalty. The longer they do this, the more they lose, and when it comes to cuts, they will have to take a bigger hit to get out of the whole. Obviously its a good idea in the immediate short term, but not long term viable and would start to have a bad effect the staff as a whole

Poor Uncle Tom

Mellor wrote: »

Tom I think you missed the point.

Yes, I did.
Nobody runs a business to make a loss, long or short term. But I will make the point that I think there are a lot of very talented people out there in employment, maybe not making the very best use of their given talents, employers can see this, believe me. All I'm saying is employers should make use of the resourses they have in front of them, it may not be in front of a computer or on a drawing board........

Mellor

And all I said was a company can only afford to make a loss for so long.

smashey

I'm on a 3 day week from next week.

sydthebeat

smashey wrote: »

I'm on a 3 day week from next week.

feck!!

these are troubled times..

smashey

I'm taking the positives out of it. Three days are better than none.

muffler

smashey wrote: »

I'm on a 3 day week from next week.

Will the boss even notice the difference
















Seriously though Im sorry to hear that

ConfusedTech

Smashey, Sorry to hear that. Glad to hear that you are on a 3 day week, as it at least means that your bosses are trying.

I heard last night that one of the big boys let 13 guys go on Friday last and also just talked with a practice of 9 that liquidated last week.

I have seen some light in the past two weeks and got some potentials across the water for Irish clients, so heads up, a few more months and I think that we will find a level. Think outside the box, as the box is now full!!!

smashey

Thanks guys (including muffler ).

I know another practice here in Letterkenny who have laid off eight workers and the rest are on three day weeks as well.

Bummer.

No6

Sorry to hear that smashey this recession is going to get to all of us one way or another.

Poor Uncle Tom

On a 3 day, after how long? Sorry to hear that.

It's catching us all, I'm nearly full time on accounts right now, trying to spread it over the next few months. I've gotten into waste permit applications, COR's, EPA licence applications, etc., as well.

smashey

I'm only here a couple of years but am the only one left.

C'est la vie.

I'll see if my brother will let me loose in his shop for a couple of days a week.

topcatcbr

Sorry to hear this. Keep the chin up though.:(

sinnerboy

Smashey - sorry to hear this . Hope 3 turns back to 5 soon