new medicine entry route quidelines

maggie18x

did anyone read the new quidelines for entering into undergrad medicine 2009 with the new system?it says that all minimum subject reuirements be got in one leaving cert sitting.so that means if anyone repeated and did one of the requirements in the previous year-like maths or english, does that mean they can on longer get in through that route?:eek:

ZorbaTehZ

maggie18x wrote: »

so that means if anyone repeated and did one of the requirements in the previous year-like maths or english, does that mean they can on longer get in through that route?:eek:

Correct, you must fill all the requirements for subjects and points in the same sitting. You can read the brochure here.

straight_As

Interesting read.

Does this new system mean that all combined scores of over 780 will be automatically sufficient for med school entry? It would seem slightly futile if this was not the case as it would eliminate any 480 LCE points applicants, would it not, and consequently render the system obsolete?

Or will the application of places continue as is at present, therefore eliminating the point of the new system and simply making 860 combined the new 600?

I'm not saying that I'm for or against this system, it just appears to be rather pointless to allot a points threshold when the CAO offers places simply through a points-demand mechanism.

Would it not just be better to say the top x number of combined scores will be offered positions on each course?

poppy08

Oh crap! u serious!**** can u really do english in 1 year!?!? wahat are the other requirements apart from science subjects!?!?

ZorbaTehZ

straight_As wrote: »

Or will the application of places continue as is at present, therefore eliminating the point of the new system and simply making 860 combined the new 600.

I used pretty much the same sentence in another thread to describe the new system, and from what I see, that's exactly how it will work out. I wouldn't be impressed at all, but I guess we'll just have to wait an see how it goes.

poppy08 wrote:

Oh crap! u serious!**** can u really do english in 1 year!?!? wahat are the other requirements apart from science subjects!?!?

The requirement regarding english across all med schools here is an ordinary D3. Regardless, I think it's a great idea. No more of these slacker repeaters getting in after dropping subjects so they can pick up the "easy-A1".
If you click the link above, it gives all the requirements per college, including science.

Carsinian Thau

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

The requirement regarding english across all med schools here is an ordinary D3. Regardless, I think it's a great idea. No more of these slacker repeaters getting in after dropping subjects so they can pick up the "easy-A1".
If you click the link above, it gives all the requirements per college, including science.

I also think it's a good idea.
Even if some people say it'll be taxing that's no harm. Medschool and working as a doctor are not going to be easy anyway, may as well get used to the hard work before you even enter.

Piste

straight_As wrote: »

Or will the application of places continue as is at present, therefore eliminating the point of the new system and simply making 860 combined the new 600?

I was so delighted when I heard about the new system, but then I figured out it would end up like this, everyone will still be scrambling for the highest points possible, so tbh I don't see anyone getting medicine with fewer than 550 points


Also there's probably be more applicants with the current system.


What I'm hoping though is that people will think they only need 480 points instead of 570/560 and so more people will aim lower so there's less competition out there.

Carsinian Thau

Piste wrote: »

What I'm hoping though is that people will think they only need 480 points instead of 570/560 and so more people will aim lower so there's less competition out there.

Don't you think every other potential student will work that out too?
I doubt your "competition" is as dim as you hope.

peachystarr

I think its going to be a much better system, those that get in will still need to have high points up around 550/560 but it just means that they dont have to have 600, its that last 30/40 points that are the hardest to get so at least these people will have a chance to make up there points with the other test and the idea of 1 LC sitting is excellent cutting out all the repeaters dropping there harder subjects and picking up easy A1's in new subjects.

Piste

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

Don't you think every other potential student will work that out too?
I doubt your "competition" is as dim as you hope.

Yeah I'm sure most people will have figured it out...but hopefully there's a few out there who wont have...

kellykl

I think the whole point is that HPAT is more of an aptitude test rather than an academic one. It's supposed to be something you can't study or prepare for. So you may have someone with 600 points who scores really low on the aptitide test and someone with 480 who scores really highly. Or, at least, this is what CAO and the department are thinking. In reality, it probably won't really make much difference. You still won't see many people below 550 getting in.

Carsinian Thau

kellykl wrote: »

I think the whole point is that HPAT is more of an aptitude test rather than an academic one. It's supposed to be something you can't study or prepare for. So you may have someone with 600 points who scores really low on the aptitide test and someone with 480 who scores really highly. Or, at least, this is what CAO and the department are thinking. In reality, it probably won't really make much difference. You still won't see many people below 550 getting in.

You're right about the 550 but I think the major problem about the aptitude test is the assumption that people will answer it honestly. Loads of people would easily be smart enough to manipulate the way they answer a test to make them sound more doctory (it's a word!, adjective technically). I think that we're just adding an aptitude test to the mix but keeping the problem the same.
Maybe we should interview them as well. Although, I don't think I'd ever be comfortable telling random strangers (particularly ones that may end up teaching me) something like that about myself. As it is, I've only ever told one person the actual true reason behind it and she had to really earn that right.
Perhaps psychological screening would be the best route to take...

kaki

Psychological screening ftw. Although it could become so bizarre, that the people who were really really deadset on doing medicine could construct and present a doctory (totally a word) persona just for the screening. Because I'm not sure that there is any errectable barrier that cannot be swept aside by sheer bloodimindedness and toil.

But, yeah, I agree with kellykl. I can't see many folks on <550 getting in via the new system. T'was a lovely idea in theory.

LizT

kellykl wrote: »

I think the whole point is that HPAT is more of an aptitude test rather than an academic one. It's supposed to be something you can't study or prepare for. So you may have someone with 600 points who scores really low on the aptitide test and someone with 480 who scores really highly. Or, at least, this is what CAO and the department are thinking. In reality, it probably won't really make much difference. You still won't see many people below 550 getting in.

I did the HPAT to get into University of Ulster, to study Speech and Language therapy. I personally don't see the relevance of it to any profession. I came out thinking i did crap and ended up in the top 7%... It just seems completely random!

ZorbaTehZ

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

You're right about the 550 but I think the major problem about the aptitude test is the assumption that people will answer it honestly. Loads of people would easily be smart enough to manipulate the way they answer a test to make them sound more doctory (it's a word!, adjective technically). I think that we're just adding an aptitude test to the mix but keeping the problem the same.

From what I have seen of the equivalents - BMAT and AMAT tests - I'd be inclined to disagree. If I were to liken them to anything, then it would be to personality or IQ tests, with a strong test of a persons reasoning ability. Also worth noting that there will be no subjective correcting of answers (apart from the essay if they decided to include one) simply multiple choice which dominate the test.

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

Maybe we should interview them as well. Although, I don't think I'd ever be comfortable telling random strangers (particularly ones that may end up teaching me) something like that about myself. As it is, I've only ever told one person the actual true reason behind it and she had to really earn that right.
Perhaps psychological screening would be the best route to take...

Interviewing would be the single best way to judge a candidate's character and what should be ideally introduced - although I don't think one would need to go so far as a psychological screening

LizT

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

From what I have seen of the equivalents - BMAT and AMAT tests - I'd be inclined to disagree. If I were to liken them to anything, then it would be to personality or IQ tests, with a strong test of a persons reasoning ability. Also worth noting that there will be no subjective correcting of answers (apart from the essay if they decided to include one) simply multiple choice which dominate the test.

the HPAT always includes two essays.

ZorbaTehZ

lizt wrote: »

the HPAT always includes two essays.

Do you have a source for that - I had a quick look around before I made that post and all i could find was this which does not make any references to essays, althought it would seem strange if they did not include one tbh.

Piste

I've seen a sample paper for the HPAT (linked to in another thread) and yup there are essays on it. I don't like the look of the essays, for one thing I havent a clue how much to write, and also the titles are so vague and wishy washy...

ZorbaTehZ

And as was said on that same thread "that paper you linked is a sample for the University of Ulster's HPAT, not the HPAT for CAO courses"

Piste

Yeah there's no HPAT-Ireland paper yet because there's never been a HPAT-ireland test before. I'd say the HPAT-Ulster is the closest approximation to what the HPAT-Ireland test will be that we'll see for a while. I hope they put up a HPAT-Ireland sample paper at some point in case they decide to tinker around with the Ulster one and make some changes. That said, the Ulster HPAT looks very easy (though we might get stung on the essays- who knows?!) so they might decide to toughen it up a bit.

lizt wrote: »

the HPAT always includes two essays.

How long are the essays? And in the last section where it says "develop a piece of wiriting in response to one or more of the following statements" How many did you write about?



Maybe they just want the essays to make sure our writing's illegible enough for prescriptions :pac:

Carsinian Thau

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

From what I have seen of the equivalents - BMAT and AMAT tests - I'd be inclined to disagree. If I were to liken them to anything, then it would be to personality or IQ tests, with a strong test of a persons reasoning ability. Also worth noting that there will be no subjective correcting of answers (apart from the essay if they decided to include one) simply multiple choice which dominate the test.

Good point. I'd guess that'd be something like the tests used when applying to UCAS to get medicine. I only ever looked at the samples but they seemed challenging. Kind of what you'd want for medical students to be good at.

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

Interviewing would be the single best way to judge a candidate's character and what should be ideally introduced - although I don't think one would need to go so far as a psychological screening

But then we'd have to consider the difficulties with interviewing e.g time required, possible nepotism, locations, who qualifies to judge/interview candidates etc.
Although that said, you're right about it being the best way.

Carsinian Thau

lizt wrote: »

the HPAT always includes two essays.

Would the judging of essays have the required objectivity to fairly award places to people though?
We'd have to have a fair few people to read the essays and they might have different ideas as to what constitutes the most suitable type of answer.

LizT

As far as I'm aware the HPAT for medicine will follw pretty much the same format as the one I did. The essays - pretty random! The first one I had to do we were given a load of statistics about children exercising and childhood obesity and basically you just have to write an essay containing these facts. The second one I had to do was where I was given about five different quotes all about the passing or time and regrets... I had no clue what to write, basically waffled my way through the two of them and got a good score! There's a time limit as well on each section of the test. The essays were about 30 minutes each I think although I can't be sure!

LizT

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

Would the judging of essays have the required objectivity to fairly award places to people though?
We'd have to have a fair few people to read the essays and they might have different ideas as to what constitutes the most suitable type of answer.

Two different examiners correct the essay part of your test.

Carsinian Thau

lizt wrote: »

As far as I'm aware the HPAT for medicine will follw pretty much the same format as the one I did. The essays - pretty random! The first one I had to do we were given a load of statistics about children exercising and childhood obesity and basically you just have to write an essay containing these facts. The second one I had to do was where I was given about five different quotes all about the passing or time and regrets... I had no clue what to write, basically waffled my way through the two of them and got a good score! There's a time limit as well on each section of the test. The essays were about 30 minutes each I think although I can't be sure!

The childhood obesity essay sounds relevant and a good choice. If they introduce essays for us, I'd like to see stuff like that esp if it was as medically based as that.
The other one may have been examining the abstractness of being a doctor. Dealing with death and the possible emotions etc. Important if you're a doctor.

rainbow kirby

Interesting read - though I can't see it making much of a difference.

turgon

Medicine smells funny.

But its good that people with a genuine interest will now get a chance.

Malmedicine

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

No more of these slacker repeaters getting in after dropping subjects so they can pick up the "easy-A1".

Your heads up your arse mate.

1. No such thing as an easy A1 ever
2. Slacker repeaters - don't think they exist, especially if looking to do medicine.

Carsinian Thau wrote:

The childhood obesity essay sounds relevant and a good choice. If they introduce essays for us, I'd like to see stuff like that esp if it was as medically based as that.
The other one may have been examining the abstractness of being a doctor. Dealing with death and the possible emotions etc. Important if you're a doctor.

But then we'd have to consider the difficulties with interviewing e.g time required, possible nepotism, locations, who qualifies to judge/interview candidates etc.
Although that said, you're right about it being the best way.

Medically based stuff..... Why? You know absolutely diddly squat about medicine and yet you want questions on it or to review stats and answer an essay on it? The other example you put forward is equally absurd.And dear god hope they are not marked by medics!!!!!!

Difficulties with interviewing are as you said neopotism, favouritism, gender issues ( ideally the med schools would like 50/50 and this would be a chance to redress the increase that has occured due to girls getting higher marks in the LC).
The best way is the fairest way IMO and that way is the CAO. You work hard you get it, if you dont get it first time ,repeat (trust me you'll work twice as hard and you'll should have filled all matriculation requirments so you can drop 'subjects that do not interest you and pick up subjects that do'). Oh and apply to UCAS, if your only willing to do medicine in Ireland, you have to ask yourself, 'Do you want it that much then?'

Carsinian Thau

Malmedicine wrote: »

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

No more of these slacker repeaters getting in after dropping subjects so they can pick up the "easy-A1".

Your heads up your arse mate.

1. No such thing as an easy A1 ever
2. Slacker repeaters - don't think they exist, especially if looking to do medicine.

Carsinian Thau wrote:

The childhood obesity essay sounds relevant and a good choice. If they introduce essays for us, I'd like to see stuff like that esp if it was as medically based as that.
The other one may have been examining the abstractness of being a doctor. Dealing with death and the possible emotions etc. Important if you're a doctor.

But then we'd have to consider the difficulties with interviewing e.g time required, possible nepotism, locations, who qualifies to judge/interview candidates etc.
Although that said, you're right about it being the best way.

Medically based stuff..... Why? You know absolutely diddly squat about medicine and yet you want questions on it or to review stats and answer an essay on it? The other example you put forward is equally absurd.And dear god hope they are not marked by medics!!!!!!

Difficulties with interviewing are as you said neopotism, favouritism, gender issues ( ideally the med schools would like 50/50 and this would be a chance to redress the increase that has occured due to girls getting higher marks in the LC).
The best way is the fairest way IMO and that way is the CAO. You work hard you get it, if you dont get it first time ,repeat (trust me you'll work twice as hard and you'll should have filled all matriculation requirments so you can drop 'subjects that do not interest you and pick up subjects that do'). Oh and apply to UCAS, if your only willing to do medicine in Ireland, you have to ask yourself, 'Do you want it that much then?'

I won't address what you said to the other poster but I'd like to say that there's no need to be so agressive.

Out of curiosity, how do you know I know "diddly squat" about medicine?
I know what obesity is and I think analysing the impact of excercise on it is something anyone with a basic interest in medicine and a leaving cert should be capable of.
I also think it appropriate for medical students to have an awareness of death and what would constitute an approximately correct attitude to dealing with it.
I don't think it right to call any suggestion along those lines absurd. Of course, for some reason you strike me as being fairly arrogant and naturally, in such case, wouldn't like to see the introduction of anything that doesn't work for you.

Feel free not to respond to this unless you feel like being more constructive with your feedback.

LizT

I don't agree that the CAO is the fairest way. At all. I come from a medical background and trust me, getting 600 points in no way insures that you will be a good doctor. The UCAS system is much better. If you haven't done work experience, you won't even be considered. This at least shows you actually know what a day's work is like.

sillymoo

lizt wrote: »

I don't agree that the CAO is the fairest way. At all. I come from a medical background and trust me, getting 600 points in no way insures that you will be a good doctor. The UCAS system is much better. If you haven't done work experience, you won't even be considered. This at least shows you actually know what a day's work is like.

Seconded