new medicine entry route quidelines

Carsinian Thau

lizt wrote: »

I don't agree that the CAO is the fairest way. At all. I come from a medical background and trust me, getting 600 points in no way insures that you will be a good doctor. The UCAS system is much better. If you haven't done work experience, you won't even be considered. This at least shows you actually know what a day's work is like.

Completely agree with this.
The ability to remember an entire shelf of textbooks doesn't make a good doctor. Personality and attitude are way more important.

Malmedicine

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

I won't address what you said to the other poster but I'd like to say that there's no need to be so agressive.

Out of curiosity, how do you know I know "diddly squat" about medicine?

Well would you like me to flounce about and tell you that indeed everything you commented on is correct. Are you a Doctor in disguise/ a med student/ some one who reads the times health supplement???? I'm guessing the third at best hence the diddly squat remark.

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

I know what obesity is and I think analysing the impact of excercise on it is something anyone with a basic interest in medicine and a leaving cert should be capable of.

How do you measure obesity? What are the flaws of this system? How could the impact of exercise be skewed? What defines obesity/exercise/impact? Ok so lets say you do know all of the above, fine good . . . did you do biology? Did the taking of that subject aid you? Maybe your parents are in a medical field or something else down those lines and that has aided you? Is it fair to ask the same question to someone who (a) hasn't taken biology (remember its not a pre requiste for most courses) or (b) doesn't have parents as doctors etc. If you place questions on the exam like that you are benefitting certain students at the detriment of others, something I think you are battling against.

I'm not trying to bash your enthusiasm or interest in medicine.

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

I also think it appropriate for medical students to have an awareness of death and what would constitute an approximately correct attitude to dealing with it.

An awareness of death and how it affects people? The correct attitude to dealing with it? As you said medical students should be able to answer these questions but unless you have had the misfortune to have to deal with these questions, I don't feel prospective med students are in a position to answer these questions truthfully (as opposed to properly). Thats why I thought it absurd to ask prospective students to answer questions about dealing with death and the emotions it entails when hopefully for the vast majority they have not expierianced it and consequently them. Med students learn through the course/experiance how to deal with these questions both internally and externally.

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

Of course, for some reason you strike me as being fairly arrogant and naturally, in such case, wouldn't like to see the introduction of anything that doesn't work for you.

Feel free not to respond to this unless you feel like being more constructive with your feedback.

I know your heart is in the right place but honestly your giving examples that I really believe are just not fair, workable or in the best interest of the majority of students who would be taking it.

The UCAS system is a decent system for the UK(plenty of med schools compared to here, not as big a chance as old school ties or doctors rubbing doctors backs, only 5 here?) but there are plenty of flaws in it also. An essay as a screening tool is highly subjective, and as you said about work expieriance it should be important, but what stops someone from lying?? What would stop a school from having a template year after year for getting students through?

This one really gets my goat though

To Lizt as well,

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

The ability to remember an entire shelf of textbooks doesn't make a good doctor. Personality and attitude are way more important

It might'nt make a good doctor but it sure as hell helps . Personality and attitude will get you so far but if you can't commit to the work involved, it sure does make it hard to progress to actually being in a position for someone to call you doctor. High points do show an ability to be able to handle high workloads which is needed. And there are plenty of people who go into college as a shy retiring wallflower and come out of their shell and develop their personality, something that may have been suppressed in secondary school either by school or peers.

Stepherunie

Essays are a woeful way to go. Especially the topics that are being presented here.

17/18 years olds shouldn't have to have dealt with these types of things. People that age shouldn't be able to be competent in dealing with death. I'm 23 and have seen people die whilst on placement in hospital and it still affects me.

I still remember vividly the first person that I saw about to die when I was doing my radiography placement. I was 19 and I went home that night and cried because it was such a crazy experience. And yet someone suggests that we should see how people would suggest how they cope with it, nothing prepares you for it and asking them to write an essay is asking them to come up with their own beliefs about themselves and then realise that there actual reaction is completely different.

If someone had asked me before that day I would have told them that I would have said a prayer for that man, then collect my thoughts and move on because I thought I was strong enough for it not to affect me. Instead I couldn't get that mans' face out of my head for the rest of the day.


You need to be realistic about these things, when I applied to the UK I had to write about 24 short paragraphs talking about how I had dealt with previous experiences, and they ranged from rows with friends to pressurised situations.

You can learn a lot by peoples past, it is a guide to the future. Hypotheses do not aid you because they don't give you a representation of who those people really are.

Carsinian Thau

Malmedicine wrote: »

Well would you like me to flounce about and tell you that indeed everything you commented on is correct. Are you a Doctor in disguise/ a med student/ some one who reads the times health supplement???? I'm guessing the third at best hence the diddly squat remark.

How do you measure obesity? What are the flaws of this system? How could the impact of exercise be skewed? What defines obesity/exercise/impact? Ok so lets say you do know all of the above, fine good . . . did you do biology? Did the taking of that subject aid you? Maybe your parents are in a medical field or something else down those lines and that has aided you? Is it fair to ask the same question to someone who (a) hasn't taken biology (remember its not a pre requiste for most courses) or (b) doesn't have parents as doctors etc. If you place questions on the exam like that you are benefitting certain students at the detriment of others, something I think you are battling against.

I'm not trying to bash your enthusiasm or interest in medicine.

An awareness of death and how it affects people? The correct attitude to dealing with it? As you said medical students should be able to answer these questions but unless you have had the misfortune to have to deal with these questions, I don't feel prospective med students are in a position to answer these questions truthfully (as opposed to properly). Thats why I thought it absurd to ask prospective students to answer questions about dealing with death and the emotions it entails when hopefully for the vast majority they have not expierianced it and consequently them. Med students learn through the course/experiance how to deal with these questions both internally and externally.

I know your heart is in the right place but honestly your giving examples that I really believe are just not fair, workable or in the best interest of the majority of students who would be taking it.

The UCAS system is a decent system for the UK(plenty of med schools compared to here, not as big a chance as old school ties or doctors rubbing doctors backs, only 5 here?) but there are plenty of flaws in it also. An essay as a screening tool is highly subjective, and as you said about work expieriance it should be important, but what stops someone from lying?? What would stop a school from having a template year after year for getting students through?

This one really gets my goat though

It might'nt make a good doctor but it sure as hell helps . Personality and attitude will get you so far but if you can't commit to the work involved, it sure does make it hard to progress to actually being in a position for someone to call you doctor. High points do show an ability to be able to handle high workloads which is needed. And there are plenty of people who go into college as a shy retiring wallflower and come out of their shell and develop their personality, something that may have been suppressed in secondary school either by school or peers.

Your points about how both systems are flawed are true. But I do prefer the idea of personality being taken into account over academic ability alone. My reasoning behind this is to lessen the possibility that people with bad attitudes would become doctors.
The one trait that I can't stand in doctors is arrogance. Not the type of arrogance that seems to occur in people who work really hard and become so good that they find it difficult to believe that they're not God but the arrogance that comes from doctors who like to think they're better than everyone else because they've been through medical school and have passed their boards exams and have worked in their position for x years.
Unfortuantely I've met quite a few of those type (the worst being a GP who didn't even try to pretend that he didn't think himself to be an entirely separate species to me).
I've encountered students with that type of attitude as well. In far too many of those cases I've heard them say that they intend to study med. Some have gotten it, others haven't. I dread to think that people like that would become doctors.

I'll admit that in the relatively small number of medical students that I do know, I don't see a lot of that trait. Perhaps I'm blind to it though.

I don't think we'll ever find a system that really works. And in the end of the day, provided they're competent it doesn't really amtter what type of doctor you have, provided you have one.

Piste

Malmedicine wrote: »

Carsinian Thau wrote:

The childhood obesity essay sounds relevant and a good choice. If they introduce essays for us, I'd like to see stuff like that esp if it was as medically based as that.
The other one may have been examining the abstractness of being a doctor. Dealing with death and the possible emotions etc. Important if you're a doctor.

But then we'd have to consider the difficulties with interviewing e.g time required, possible nepotism, locations, who qualifies to judge/interview candidates etc.
Although that said, you're right about it being the best way.

Medically based stuff..... Why? You know absolutely diddly squat about medicine and yet you want questions on it or to review stats and answer an essay on it? The other example you put forward is equally absurd.And dear god hope they are not marked by medics!!!!!!

I'd just like to clear up, for the first essay you're not expected to know anything about the topic, and it wont always be medical-based either. You're given various statistics and various forms (bar charts, pie charts, bullet points etc.) and you have to correllate them in an essay. All the information is given to you, you don't have to know anything before hand.

lizt wrote: »

I don't agree that the CAO is the fairest way. At all. I come from a medical background and trust me, getting 600 points in no way insures that you will be a good doctor. The UCAS system is much better. If you haven't done work experience, you won't even be considered. This at least shows you actually know what a day's work is like.

That makes a massive assumption that everyone going to into medicine wants to become a doctor. Of course the vast majority will be entering medicine with the aim to becoming a doctor, but there are other possibilites such as research, medical journalism etc.

I'd also much rather the doctor that knew medicine inside out and could cure me than the doctor that could charm my pants off.

sillymoo

Piste wrote: »

That makes a massive assumption that everyone going to into medicine wants to become a doctor. Of course the vast majority will be entering medicine with the aim to becoming a doctor, but there are other possibilites such as research, medical journalism etc.

Sorry but this just seems a little silly - why spend 5 to 6 years studying medicine and your aim is not to become a doctor? If you want to get into research or medical journalism etc. dont do medicine! There are other mediaclly related courses you can do if that rocks your boat eg biomedical science. Even if your aim is not to become a doctor, and you do medicine, you will still have to practice after qualifying in your intern year, and it wont be fun being on call with very little sleep if you really want to be a journalist! At the end of the day, the worst doctors I have come across are the ones that were pushed into doing medicine and do not enjoy their job.

Piste

The really serious medical research at the top level would require a medical degree at least. But I realise that most people that do medicine want to be doctors, I don't think we should cherry-pick the people that have the best personalities though.

For things like surgery where the only contact you'll have with your patient is explaining the procedure eforehand and mybe saying how it went afterwards skill is far more important than personality.

sillymoo

Piste wrote: »

The really serious medical research at the top level would require a medical degree at least.

Actually surprisingly no - for example most of the researchers who are doing reserch in RCSI actually started by doing science degrees in Trinity.

For things like surgery where the only contact you'll have with your patient is explaining the procedure eforehand and mybe saying how it went afterwards skill is far more important than personality.

People forget how important a good personality is, yes to be a surgeon you need to be skillful however you also need to be able to talk to the patient and earn their trust before eg. open heart surgery where the patient will be terified. Besides the relationship with the patient, you also need to be able to relate to their families, and with other staff. Nobody wants to work with somebody who has terrible interpersonal skills!

Piste

I agree that nobody wants to deal with someone who has terrible interpersonal skillz, but those people are few and far between, I'd prefer someone who was polite, maybe a little shy but told me what I needed to know and was technically brilliant rather than someone who was lovely and made me feel completely at ease but left their scalpel inside me!

I think more emphasis needs to be put on section 2 of the HPAT, that's the part that's mostly about relating to people. That'd weed out the people who are socially retarded but academically brilliant.

sillymoo

Piste wrote: »

I agree that nobody wants to deal with someone who has terrible interpersonal skillz, but those people are few and far between, I'd prefer someone who was polite, maybe a little shy but told me what I needed to know and was technically brilliant rather than someone who was lovely and made me feel completely at ease but left their scalpel inside me!

I think more emphasis needs to be put on section 2 of the HPAT, that's the part that's mostly about relating to people. That'd weed out the people who are socially retarded but academically brilliant.

Fair enough! Mind you the majority people I know doing medicine are great and have the best personalities yet are still academically brilliant - I suppose you had to be to get into the course before the new guidelines! Thats the ideal combination really. And id happily let them leave a scapel in me

Piste

I suppose you'd get so much from suing them that it'd be worth it...


I'd imagine that most people who start out in medicine are grand and all, but once they begin to realise they can play God and tinker around with people's bodies they get more arrogant. Can't see that changing with the new system!

sillymoo

Piste wrote: »

I suppose you'd get so much from suing them that it'd be worth it...


I'd imagine that most people who start out in medicine are grand and all, but once they begin to realise they can play God and tinker around with people's bodies they get more arrogant. Can't see that changing with the new system!

Well we will see how it goes....... Guess your headed for medicine then? Bumpy long road but pleasent surprises on the way

Anyway I think this thread has gone WAY off topic!

ZorbaTehZ

Malmedicine wrote:

Your heads up your arse mate.

1. No such thing as an easy A1 ever
2. Slacker repeaters - don't think they exist, especially if looking to do medicine.

1,380 views of this thread, and you're the only one that disagrees with me. All your replies have been extremely trollish so far, so I'll leave it at that.

I'd like to point out again that there's yet to be any sources provided for what's been said so far in the thread regarding the essays, with the only HPAT-Ireland sources indicating there wont be any essays at all.

Piste

The HPAT-Ulster test contains two essays, it's likely that the HPAT-ireland test will be modelled on the HPAT-Ulster because it's tried and tested. I think most of the comments on this thread in relation to essays have been hypothetical- IF there were essays on the HPAT-Ireland exam.


ZorbahTehZ don't cry troll just because someone's opinon differs from yours, I can see nothing trollish in Malmedicine's posts, s/he just disagrees with you is all.

LizT

Piste wrote: »

That makes a massive assumption that everyone going to into medicine wants to become a doctor. Of course the vast majority will be entering medicine with the aim to becoming a doctor, but there are other possibilites such as research, medical journalism etc.

I'd also much rather the doctor that knew medicine inside out and could cure me than the doctor that could charm my pants off.

I don't believe it does make that assumption. One would simply state that their aim is to eventually become a medical journalist or whatever in their personal statement.

Piste

What personal statement?

LizT

Piste wrote: »

What personal statement?

For UCAS you have to write a personal statement. that was the point I was trying to make - that's why the British system is better for medicine applicants. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

poppy08

well i want to do med. just did leaving cert, didn't get points, got 520. Applyed to Ucas tho, had a jaw droppingly good personal statemnet ( <thats my careers cousellors words, not mine), full of medical charity/training (order of malta etc.). aptitutude was normal. still didn't get in?. Apparently i don't match "social criteria". Although i think the irish system tough with high marks, atleast u know what you need to get in to med. in Britian they just pick and choose whoever they want- no exactly a better system IMO

Carsinian Thau

poppy08 wrote: »

well i want to do med. just did leaving cert, didn't get points, got 520. Applyed to Ucas tho, had a jaw droppingly good personal statemnet ( <thats my careers cousellors words, not mine), full of medical charity/training (order of malta etc.). aptitutude was normal. still didn't get in?. Apparently i don't match "social criteria". Although i think the irish system tough with high marks, atleast u know what you need to get in to med. in Britian they just pick and choose whoever they want- no exactly a better system IMO

Sorry to hear that.
But seeing as you're at 520, repeating sounds like a good option.
Cut out subjects like English etc. and things could get easier. Good luck with whatever you decide to do. But if you decide to reapply to UCAS, it may be a good idea to get more than one guidance counsellor to take a look at your personal statement.

poppy08

yea, i have already bookd my place in a grind school as i am determined to study med, Don't think i'll bother reapplying to UCAS, only a couple of colleges will consider repeat students and only in rare cases have they been accepted . And with the new irish requirements for med. i need to resit eng, irish,french, maths. This year i got A1's in all 3 science subjects but my problem is i'm not so hot only the others!. i think all over the country there are peole who know they want med. and for whatever reason they can't get into it. Ultimately i suppose those who keep at it and finally qualify as a doctor will learn alot from their struggle and make them better doctors in the end!.....atl east thats what i tell myself to help me sleep at night:o

sillymoo

poppy08 wrote: »

yea, i have already bookd my place in a grind school as i am determined to study med, Don't think i'll bother reapplying to UCAS, only a couple of colleges will consider repeat students and only in rare cases have they been accepted . And with the new irish requirements for med. i need to resit eng, irish,french, maths. This year i got A1's in all 3 science subjects but my problem is i'm not so hot only the others!. i think all over the country there are peole who know they want med. and for whatever reason they can't get into it. Ultimately i suppose those who keep at it and finally qualify as a doctor will learn alot from their struggle and make them better doctors in the end!.....atl east thats what i tell myself to help me sleep at night:o

Good luck Poppy wishing you all the best. Keep at it, what is for you wont pass you by.

Malmedicine

poppy08 wrote: »

And with the new irish requirements for med. i need to resit eng, irish,french, maths.

Yes but they require you to get an ordinary level D3, in them. Maybe try looking into just barely doing enough to get this grade, in 2 or 3 of them and then try picking up a new subject or 2. Its a lot of work, it won't be easy but if you feel you have no chance in them, it might be worth looking into.

520 this year congrats, just remember that its still only 40 away from the top achievable mark next year, so if your HPAT goes really well you may be in luck but I wouldn't rely on this but best of luck

poppy08

ok i am still confused about the requirements here,

i have just done leaving cert, if i wait a year, take HPAT in feb can i be accepted?

does the HPAT and LC have to be done in the same year?

pathway33

poppy08 wrote: »

ok i am still confused about the requirements here,

i have just done leaving cert, if i wait a year, take HPAT in feb can i be accepted?

does the HPAT and LC have to be done in the same year?

i could give you the answer i'm 95% sure is correct but not gonna so i advise click the link to undergraduate medicine 2009 on www.cao.ie

Piste

The medical entry route guidelines for 2009 hERE say only that the LC points have to come from the same sitting of the Leaving Cert as the matriculation requirements and that the HPAT and LC have to be taken in the 2 years preceeding admission to the course, it doesn't say that the LC and HPAT have to be taken in the same year.

nedward

poppy08 wrote: »

well i want to do med. just did leaving cert, didn't get points, got 520. Applyed to Ucas tho, had a jaw droppingly good personal statemnet ( <thats my careers cousellors words, not mine), full of medical charity/training (order of malta etc.). aptitutude was normal. still didn't get in?. Apparently i don't match "social criteria". Although i think the irish system tough with high marks, atleast u know what you need to get in to med. in Britian they just pick and choose whoever they want- no exactly a better system IMO

I remember I was told when I was applying for UCAS that they look for certain keywords in your reference like "good in teams" "hardworking" "good people skills" "compassionate" that kind of stuff. Personal statements coming from the Brits are, in general, amazing. In the same way we have grind schools (they have them as well) they have special courses designed to set your PS for medicine.

I was looking on these other forums (medschoolguide.co.uk) I think is the address, where people would post their statements for reviewing, that's how I know by the way. I remember one guy had all the relevant work experience, he did St Johns Ambulance, he had done day courses designed to be relevant to medical students and doctors, had done courses that basically did a day in a doctor's life (fake trauma, lots of tomato ketchup and what would you do in this situation)

Anyway, I didn't get UCAS and ended up repeating in a grind school after getting 520, and got the points for medicine, so best of luck=)

molliesassy

I know I am too old for this forum but I have been following this thread and I can see that there are very knowledgable people here that might be able to answer my query. My daughter got 505 and really wanted medicine. As poppy08 says, can she apply for the HPAT in Feb and re-apply through CAO in 09 with this year's results? What if she accepts the course she has been offered this year? can she still re-apply to medicine next year?

Gone West

Wow, I can't believe so many people want to go into medicine.
I mean, you lose your 20s as a junior doctor/intern working silly hours. Thats not up for question really. Then you are still just an intern after so many very harsh years of professional qualifications.
The pay is good but not great, considering the hours.
So you work hard in leaving cert for 2 years, plus the heavy years that training to be a doctor takes. Then you're just an intern.

And its not glamorous. Its not ER or third watch. Its people spitting blood, piss, crap, vomit, and other bodily fluids. You will be looking at urine samples, and will see people most days who will die soon. Deaths happen all the time, and you would be in work as an intern on 30k (maybe 60k after overtime), working 36 hour shifts and being barely awake seeing all this crap going on.

I wouldn't wish being a doctor on my worst enemy
Sure, the status and prestigue of being a doctor is cool, but I really value my 20s more.

There are other jobs, where you can take as many holidays as you like and earn 60k+ easily without the hassle and hardship of being a doctor.

That is unless you really, really want to make a difference and to help sick people get better and help very sick people die easier. In which case, kudos.

PurpleFistMixer

Fuzzy, don't put them off! It's just like the dentists... we need as many other people to do those horrible jobs as we can, so we don't have to.

Gone West

Sorry disregard last post.

yvan eht nioj!

Seriously though, it is a very noble and worthwhile occupation and fair play for all of you for going for it.