Help with RC heli (HBK2)

nas_matko

I am quite new in RC heli community (6 month) and now I am expereincing some problems with my Honey Bee King Heli.

Is there a kind person in Cork area that might look at my heli and help me solve the problem?

StRiKeR

what problem are you having?

I moved up to a Trex 450 from the HBK2 after I learnt to fly, maybe I could give you some help.

nas_matko

At the moment almost everything on the heli is upgraded, stock are only servos, frame and head assembly.

I am running 3100 brushless, DX7 + ar6200, logictech 2100 gyro, extreme turnbucle and extreme belt pulley.

I understand basic principles but still beginner. What happened was this:

In the middle of hover I started to loose tail authority (no crash, I just changed fresh battery). I adjusted belt tension, changed belt, nothing helped so as a last trial I changed belt pulley to extreme 43t.

Tail authority is back, but now I can't lift heli more than 40-50 cm off the ground. Battery is unusually hot and short living. It feels like I have not enough head speed, but I can't prove it since I don't have tachometer.

I asked people on different forums, got several advices but nothing helped. Maybe it is something stupid I can't see, that's why I am looking for somebody willing to look at it.

syl77

In the middle of hover I started to loose tail authority

how much control did you loose, complete losse where by heli spins around or a wagging or drifting affect.

I adjusted belt tension, changed belt, nothing helped so as a last trial I changed belt pulley to extreme 43t.

did you check to see if the pinion (that drives the belt) was slipping before changing it to a 43t. Also is the 43t correct for this heli

Another thing to check is if it is CCPM, check to see if your getting the correct pitch.
I would guess alot of your power is going to the tail and not the head.....

StRiKeR

have you checked the gap between the pinion and the main gear?, there should be a very slight gap, use a piece of paper between the pinion and the main gear, don't need to push them together very hard, just check it by stopping the motor turning and moving the main gear to feel just that slight gap bewteen them, if they are too tight together, that would explain the battery running hot and not enough to lift off. also is your ESC running hot as well?

the 43T pulley belt is great for gaining tail authority, but the tail box on the HBK2 isn't great really, the stock belt actually runs smoother than the xtreme belt. the tail box was really annoying when I had it.

are you running the gyro in rate mode or HH mode? if you had the gyro setup properly in HH mode then change to rate mode, the tail will drift to one side, depending on which side you trim it to, to get the HH mode set up with no creep on servo.

I would look at it for you but I'm in listowel so I'm a good bit away from you, I'm actually in the progress of rebuilding the HBK2, a little bit every now and then, I think I lost interest on the HBK2 since I got the Trex450

by the way, when you change over to xtreme pulley and belt, did you change the belt guide behind the tail gear as well? I wouldn't say the power would have been taken from the tail causing the heli not able to lift any higher than 50cm, as they are both on the one main shaft, both are being turn at the same rpm.

what are the pitch and throttle setting on your Tx? and what degree of pitch have you set it to at what throttle stick position? using normal or idle up? are there any different if you use both? what are the settings on both normal and idle up if you use both?

I do think you have the pinion to tight to the main gear since your battery is running unusually hot and runs down quicker than it used to providing that you have a good battery, are you still using the esky charger and battery? did that only happened after you upgrade the motor? I would have though you got the motor upgraded no more than 2 weeks from your first day, as the stock motor doesn't last, mine lasted a week and burned out. then ESC burned out, famous problem with Esky

try give the gear and pinion a check, if thats what it was, you have your problem solved there. oh also did you get the proper Esky metal upgrade or did you get the copies off ebay? I bought a set from ebay before, and I ended up getting the Esky one again after a few weeks, as they have a little play from new, and got worst very quickly, heli has never been crash and still hasn't, just bad quality parts, better pay a little extra and stick to original.

let us know how you get on, but if you want to travel over I don't mind giving you a helping hand. and I can test your battery for you as well using the IMAX B6 balancing charger and a multimeter and test the setup of your heli with my batteries instead while balance charging yours, I know mines are good as I always balance charge them and test voltages on each cell after charge every now and then, the best part is that they hardly feel warm after flight.

nas_matko

Thanks for your advices. Listowel is only 150 km from Cork so if I am really desperate I might come over with the heli.

I think the gap between pinion and main gear is ok, I put sheet of paper in between when I was tightnig up the motor. But I will double check that. I am running 3100 esky motor and 10t pinion, it was working fine for almost two month post upgrade.

Throttle curve is 0, 35, 65, 85, 100.

Pitch curve is 48, 58, 65, 79, 100 with mechanical setup where 0 is -11 deg and 100 is +11 deg.

I am still using plastic head, no cnc metal upgrades.

StRiKeR

if the gears are fine, check the tension on the belt, try push the boom in a tiny bit, that should still give enough tension on the belt and not too hard on the motor, too much tension on the belt can also make the motor, ESC and battery to work harder, therefore they get hotter. I'm not home at the moment so I can check my setting, I can post up my setting later if you want, as my Trex 450 is also using 11 to -11 pitch setting, but more on progressive throttle curve. I don't know what my normal curve is nowadays as I never use that anymore, I think I have it set to 0 pitch at center stick, because I switch to idle-up-1 once I get to center stick before take off. then idle up 2 for even more power if the wind is strong.

nas_matko

Now what is happening - when I put stock 1000mAh 10C battery I can clearly see drop in RPM in about 20-30s and heli is hardly lifting off the ground.

2nd battery 1500mAh 20C is abe to lift the heli on max throttle, but there is not much power left to maneuvre.

It looks like something is draining too much power so the low discharge rate battery is not able to provide it, higher discharge rate battery is able, but is working on the edge.

Could it be that 43t pulley is the cause of extra load, or could it be faulty electronics (servo, ESC)?

syl77

Could it be that 43t pulley is the cause of extra load, or could it be faulty electronics (servo, ESC)?

Well the issue did start when you put in the new pully. Have you tried replacing it with the original one to see if it will lift (even with a poor tall).

StRiKeR

did you try to losen up the tension a little on the belt? the problem is not because you change the pulley and belt, because 90% of HBK2 owners I know are running xtreme pulley and belt. mine is working fine.

also are the belt guides set up properly?

nas_matko

syl77 wrote: »

Well the issue did start when you put in the new pully. Have you tried replacing it with the original one to see if it will lift (even with a poor tall).

I haven't because tail was so poor that as soon as heli lifted 1 inch off the ground it was uncontrolable.

nas_matko

StRiKeR wrote: »

did you try to losen up the tension a little on the belt? the problem is not because you change the pulley and belt, because 90% of HBK2 owners I know are running xtreme pulley and belt. mine is working fine.

also are the belt guides set up properly?

I did loosen it uo, not much cahnge.

I left the original belt guides on, because I couldn't see any difference between the new one and olf one.

StRiKeR

they are different, the original one is shorter. the edge of the belt could be rubbing off the bottom of the guide, it can do damage over time. hmmm... it's strange that you lossing head speed and its not the pinion or a belt over tighten, gonna have to see it, try post some close up clear pics if you can. might help. or a vid even

nas_matko

StRiKeR wrote: »

they are different, the original one is shorter. the edge of the belt could be rubbing off the bottom of the guide, it can do damage over time. hmmm... it's strange that you lossing head speed and its not the pinion or a belt over tighten, gonna have to see it, try post some close up clear pics if you can. might help. or a vid even

I'll try to shoot some video and post it here. Thanks for your effort to help me.

nas_matko

No video yet, but here are my other observations, maybe you could make something out of it.

43t belt pulley, I have good tail control but:
- 1000 mAh esky green battery 10C is not able to lift heli at all, you see drop in RPM after maybe 20s of spinning
- 1500 mAh 20C is able to lift heli, stil reasonable tail control, but every movement of rudder is transferred to loss of altitude and I have to fly on almost full throttle

I put back orginal esky pulley and I lost tail control completely.

StRiKeR

when you use the 43T belt, did you notice any wear on the belt very quickly?

turn the rotor by hand slowly and check the gears are moving properly on the tail shaft.

I had a problem before with the tail shaft gear, it wasn't matching with the belt, on the 43T, it had to be tighten to turn the tail blades, but too tight for the motor. stock belt works well, but tail control isn't great, but it was still there.

also are you having these problem in rate mode or HH mode? i.e. your tail control is lost in rate mode or HH mode, or both?

nas_matko

Actually, I haven't seen much wear on the belt while using 43t pulley, but on the other hand I wasn't using it long enough.

Tail is lost in both, HH and rate, but worse in rate.

This weekend I am planning (weather permitting) small trip to Dingle, and I was just wondering, maybe I could see you with my heli for a few minutes as a part of the trip.

Would you be free during weekend or is it a bad idea?

StRiKeR

I don't have a problem helping you out, but unfortunately I am away for a month or 2, but I can meet you another time, if you're still stuck, the HBK2 tail is a tricky little bugger, it used to drive me mental every now and then, nearly every week I had to re set the tail. you can mod the Trex 450 or other 400 size heli's tail box to fit, some fit straight on, and they do a much better job, nearly everyone I know flying HBK2 has mods on theirs

but if you ever think about getting another one might be a bigger heli, I would recommend you to go for a 600E, i.e. Trex 600E I'm after myself, the 450 is very well built and never give any hassle, but its still feels very small. its bigger, but not by that much.

nas_matko

OK, no luck this time, maybe some other time then

Tomorrow I am going to try my friend's Align ESC to rule out problem there. Then I might try new motor (which I have to order) and if any of it doesn't help, I am going to bin HBK2

What batteries do you need for 600E and how expensive are spare parts?

nas_matko

I did couple of more experiments and here are the results:
I replaced ESC for Align 35A from my friend's T-rex and observations are like this. On green 1000mAh 10C heli's headspeed was oscilating. (don't mind ESC just hanging out of the heli, I was lazy to remove mine and replace it with new, so they are both on the heli)See this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S44BSfljKTs

On 1500 mAh 20C I didn't observe those oscillations, but tail was behaving like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0_lpSDdFnQ

air

From the video it looks like the first battery pack is not able to supply enough current to run the heli, this is the only possible explanation since the pack is the only thing you changed between the two flights.
On the second flight, your tail is not set up correctly mechanically so you have no chance of controlling it.
I'm not familiar with the logitech gyro but in case it's of any relevance, for a Futaba 401 it goes like this:
1. Adjust the length of the tail servo control linkage until the heli hovers in rate mode without correction (obviously it will only work at a constant head speed but get it there or there abouts).
2. Switch to heading hold and away you go

Where abouts in Cork are you? I'll be there this weekend if you want me to have a look.
StRiKeR, give me a PM when ur back around.

nas_matko

The first battery pack is rated as 10C, the second one 20C. Before this problem started, I could easily fly on both pack. It looks like something (motor?) is suddenly drawing too much power so the 10C battery cannot cope with it.

As for the mechanical setup, I can't position servo any further towards the heli, because there will be no movement left (mechanically) for servo arm.

I am living very near South Infirmary Hospital on Old Blackrock Road, but this particular weekend I am on call in Mercy Hospital. We could meet there on Saturday, or I should be out of hospital for few hours Sunday (12-15). Will any of these places suit you?

air

The 10c battery could be shagged from being over discharged (either discharging to too low a final voltage, or it just mightnt be up to the discharge rate).
There's not a lot other than bad bearings that I can think of that would cause a brushless motor to suddenly draw more current and the heli seems to be pretty vibration free so I dont think it's anything else mechanical.

On the tail, can you remove the servo horn, rotate it and replace it in a different position in order to get the throw required.
Alternatively, can you shorten the servo control rod perhaps?

Will pm you regarding the weekend.

nas_matko

air wrote: »

Will pm you regarding the weekend.

OK. I'll PM you my mobile, could be faster if anything will change.

nas_matko

StRiKeR wrote: »

I don't have a problem helping you out, but unfortunately I am away for a month or 2, but I can meet you another time, if you're still stuck,

Any chance that you are back? I am still stuck.