New car sales a disaster!!!!!!!!!!!

Stevie Dakota · 02-07-2008 4:06pm

grahambo wrote: »

Apologies for the bhp mistake
Theres not point in saying that you're paying for German build quality as all main stream market new cars of that class have excellent build quality and reliability. I could never justify spending that much money on a car like that.

Ditto, I've said it before and I'll say it again, if it is the CAR you are interested in, and not the IMAGE or DEPRECIATION then you would have to be stark raving mad to spend €40K on a stripped out BMW or Merc when for €5K less you could be driving in a fully loaded C5 (for example) which has all the performance, style, comfort and toys you could ever want. I laugh every time I see some nimrod in new base 3 series with tiny wheels...

cjt156 · 02-07-2008 4:29pm

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

I laugh every time I see some nimrod in new base 3 series with tiny wheels...

But its a 318i - the ultimate driving machine!:rolleyes:

-Chris- · 02-07-2008 4:38pm

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

Ditto, I've said it before and I'll say it again, if it is the CAR you are interested in, and not the IMAGE or DEPRECIATION then you would have to be stark raving mad to spend €40K on a stripped out BMW or Merc when for €5K less you could be driving in a fully loaded C5 (for example) which has all the performance, style, comfort and toys you could ever want. I laugh every time I see some nimrod in new base 3 series with tiny wheels...

If it's the car you're interested in, and not the cost, then why aren't you listing "money no object" cars instead of high spec Citroens?

Of course depreciation figures into it, that's how much the car truely costs you, and if you ignore that part of the equation then your "bargain" high-spec car may end up truely costing you dear...

MarkN · 02-07-2008 4:39pm

Those 318 buyers help BMW to come up with cars like the 335, don't knock them.

Stevie Dakota · 02-07-2008 4:55pm

AudiChris wrote: »

If it's the car you're interested in, and not the cost, then why aren't you listing "money no object" cars instead of high spec Citroens?
.

I was referring to people who are considering base BMW's, Merc's, etc. I didn't discount cost/purchase price as in issue. Even you have to concede that the Germans charge a premium for their badge, buying one does not mean you have the better car, it just means you paid more for it.

-Chris- · 02-07-2008 5:25pm

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

I was referring to people who are considering base BMW's, Merc's, etc. I didn't discount cost/purchase price as in issue. Even you have to concede that the Germans charge a premium for their badge, buying one does not mean you have the better car, it just means you paid more for it.

The Germans charge more for their badge the same way Louis Copeland does or Manchester United does.
Is a Man U jersey really worth the price they charge for it compared to a normal football jersey, and if it's not then why do people still buy them? People are prepared to pay extra for something that they identify with, that makes them feel good, that mirrors or enhances their self image.

If people feel happier in a car with a BMW badge and are prepared to pay for it, let them.
If it lets them feel like all their hard work has paid off and now they have their chance to show the neighbours how successful they are (base model or not), let them.
If you want to show to other canny buyers that you bought a car for BMW money that has much higher spec at the expense of the badge, go ahead.

I wouldn't consider anyone described above a nimrod, life's hard enough without depriving yourself of a car that makes you feel good about yourself.

And when you sit back and do the sums, you'll find that the base BMWs, Audis & Mercs can represent pretty good value, just as much as buying an 8 year old LS400 or a top-spec Citroen does.

listermint · 02-07-2008 5:58pm

AudiChris wrote: »

The Germans charge more for their badge the same way Louis Copeland does or Manchester United does.
Is a Man U jersey really worth the price they charge for it compared to a normal football jersey, and if it's not then why do people still buy them? People are prepared to pay extra for something that they identify with, that makes them feel good, that mirrors or enhances their self image.

If people feel happier in a car with a BMW badge and are prepared to pay for it, let them.
If it lets them feel like all their hard work has paid off and now they have their chance to show the neighbours how successful they are (base model or not), let them.
If you want to show to other canny buyers that you bought a car for BMW money that has much higher spec at the expense of the badge, go ahead.

I wouldn't consider anyone described above a nimrod, life's hard enough without depriving yourself of a car that makes you feel good about yourself.

And when you sit back and do the sums, you'll find that the base BMWs, Audis & Mercs can represent pretty good value, just as much as buying an 8 year old LS400 or a top-spec Citroen does.

I agree , and quite well put if i may say.:)

listermint · 02-07-2008 6:07pm

madden23 wrote: »

The new VRT isn't gonna be that bad i found this VRT calculator and checked out the new mini, i cant remember the name of the site but i found it through REMOVED and click vehicle check!

This lad is shamelessly advertising everywhere on this forum.....

Stevie Dakota · 02-07-2008 6:08pm

I like your live and live attitude Chris, and sure enough people can and do whatever they want. However I still reserve the right to view people who choose a badge, be it a BMW or a Pringle jumper, for the sake of the badge (even if it does make them feel good, and it 'completes' them) over something as good but a lot cheaper with a certain degree of disdain.

As for the driver of a 318ES, who went all out to get the badge, does he really feel good about himself? Or is he coveting the guy next to him in a 318SE. Which exactly the point of these base cars.

By the way, I drive a BMW that was bought for reasons other than the badge.

listermint · 02-07-2008 6:10pm

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

I like your live and live attitude Chris, and sure enough people can and do whatever they want. However I still reserve the right to view people who choose a badge, be it a BMW or a Pringle jumper, for the sake of the badge (even if it does make them feel good, and it 'completes' them) over something as good but a lot cheaper with a certain degree of disdain.

As for the driver of a 318ES, who went all out to get the badge, does he really feel good about himself? Or is he coveting the guy next to him in a 318SE. Which exactly the point of these base cars.

By the way, I drive a BMW that was bought for reasons other than the badge.

The ES models make a fortune for the company, Especially as most are bought as company/fleet cars. Means alot of revenue. Interestingly what reasons did you buy your bmw for?

peasant · 02-07-2008 6:12pm

listermint wrote: »

This lad is shamelessly advertising everywhere on this forum.....

not anymore, he isn't

Stevie Dakota · 02-07-2008 8:23pm

listermint wrote: »

Means alot of revenue. Interestingly what reasons did you buy your bmw for?

Sentimental, my grandfather had a 1977 2500, kind of started there.

copacetic · 02-07-2008 8:55pm

grahambo wrote: »

A lot of people are saying how great it is that the C220 diesel is down to 30 something grand, that still very expensive for what is essentially 120PS car

E92 wrote: »

Btw, a C200 CDI has 136 bhp, not 120 bhp as stated earlier.

E92s correction wasn't quite correct as you gave him the correct C200 bhp but he quoted a C220 diesel as his example,grahambo was miles further out on the bhp and also the price.

The C220CDI has 170bhp and base model is 44k not 30 something. Everything else was about as accurate as those details!

Mickk · 02-07-2008 9:10pm

I was out in des cullen cars last week and he was telling me that his sales are up 40% from last year and are growing. They have adjusted their prices inline with the weak sterling and have some very good prices for the car... Also he really kept in contact, updated me on the things that were to be fixed and always returned missed calls ect. I have noticed often dealers have shockingly bad service. Just simple call backs and stuff are missed when you would think they would want the business. For example my gf's mother wanted a new passat and test drove one and liked it. Was told they would contact her about a value for a trade in on her 04 c180, they didn't and she rang them and still nothing. She went to another garage...

RobAMerc · 02-07-2008 9:20pm

I have to say to those who say buy a fully loaded C5 instead of overpaying for a bog standard BMW that maybe buying the BMW might have a lot more to do with the fact the BMW is actually a better drive than the C5 and no amount of toys is going to make up for that.

Admitedly cars as dynamically capable as say a Mondeo makes the argument a little less clear cut, but the BMW is still better to drive, will hold its value better and will give the owner the feel good factor no Ford could muster.

pburns · 02-07-2008 9:45pm

All the talk about top spec C5/Mondeo versus boggo 3-series/A4 is interesting...

There is a third way -

Accord, 159, Legacy Diesel, maybe a 9-3 or small Volvo.

Pluses and minuses to most of these but at least they're a bit different from the default mass-market/prestige choices... I walked out of an Audi showroom when I saw the stuffed shirts lining up to test drive the new A4.

Regarding car sales - I've had my tangles with dodgy dealers but don't envy their position right now - maybe a hundred cars in the yard, depreciating by the week and all the financial pundits talking up a recession and undermining public confidence. Gulp:eek:!

Stevie Dakota · 02-07-2008 10:41pm

RobAMerc wrote: »

I have to say to those who say buy a fully loaded C5 instead of overpaying for a bog standard BMW that maybe buying the BMW might have a lot more to do with the fact the BMW is actually a better drive than the C5 and no amount of toys is going to make up for that.

Admitedly cars as dynamically capable as say a Mondeo makes the argument a little less clear cut, but the BMW is still better to drive, will hold its value better and will give the owner the feel good factor no Ford could muster.

I would agree that no Ford would give the feel good factor of the BMW, and also agree that if by 'better drive than the Citroen' you mean on the limit handling then yes. But having driven both, the C5 was by far the more comfortable with a ride quality that was lacking from the BMW. As I commute on Irish roads, and don't do track days, this to me is more relevant. Feel good factor is different for everyone, but sit in C5 Exclusive and I suspect you may feel it, to me it was far more sumptuous than the rather austere offering from BMW and Audi.

RobAMerc · 02-07-2008 11:20pm

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

I would agree that no Ford would give the feel good factor of the BMW, and also agree that if by 'better drive than the Citroen' you mean on the limit handling then yes. But having driven both, the C5 was by far the more comfortable with a ride quality that was lacking from the BMW. As I commute on Irish roads, and don't do track days, this to me is more relevant. Feel good factor is different for everyone, but sit in C5 Exclusive and I suspect you may feel it, to me it was far more sumptuous than the rather austere offering from BMW and Audi.

I don't think you need to be on the limit to spot the driver appeal the 3 series chassis setup would have over the C5's comfort bias setup. And if lots of toys and bling float you boat over the undeniable build quality of BMW / Audi then thats your perogative, however you'll find you are in the minority - thats why the C5 will fail to sell compared to the 3 series.

I agree that alot of what does sell the plain vanilla 3 series is the badge - but imo the engineering that makes the 335i a blast to drive trickles down to the 318 too and if your the type of person who apprecites quality engineering you'll cough up the extra €€€€ for it too.

we are way off topic btw - sorry OP

E92 · 03-07-2008 12:35am

copacetic wrote: »

E92s correction wasn't quite correct as you gave him the correct C200 bhp but he quoted a C220 diesel as his example,grahambo was miles further out on the bhp and also the price.

The C220CDI has 170bhp and base model is 44k not 30 something. Everything else was about as accurate as those details!

The C200 CDI has 136 bhp, and the C220 CDI has 170 bhp. Merc's website confirms this!

grahambo wrote: »

You are paying for a badge like, and as a second hand buyer I would be more interested in getting a good car than a good name (now im not saying that mercs arent good cars) but its like everything with a "Name" you will pay extra for that little badge on the Front and Back of the car.

As far as accessories go whats standard on the C200 CDI?

I didn't mean to be having pop at you specifically, so sorry if it came across like that;)!

As for standard equipment, the C200 CDI Classic has dual zone climate control, ESP, brake drying, hill start assist, MP3 compatible stereo, front armrest, multifunction steering wheel, part electric seats and a trip computer.

That is a very comprehensive spec list, you don't get brake drying, hill start assist or part electric seats on a €40k Mondeo Titanium X(I just checked).

The 3 series ES has everything bar dual zone climate control as standard.

To answer your question, I wouldn't buy a C200 CDI, or a 318i, because I quite simply will not buy a bottom of the range car. I'd be going for the larger/more powerful engines, because I like cars.

But spending €35k on a big Citroen or Ford is just sheer madness. Depreciation is the biggest cost of running a car. If people want to choose a high spec Mondeo or C5 then I've no problem with that. The Mondeo is a superb car as it has been ever since the word Mondeo entered the lexicon. The new one is arguably better than the 3 series, though I'd need to drive them to be sure. I'd rather be in the back seat of it over the E90 any day of the week. The Citroen also looks fantastic and seems to be getting great reviews.

But don't come crying when you see how little they are worth compared to the BMW, Merc or Audi you could have bought for the same money. And that's the point I'm trying to make. You might pay more now for your premium German saloon but you'll also get far more back when you want to sell it as well. So while I despair at the idea of people aspiring to a 318i or a C180, I would much rather see people buy 6 pot BMWs but no matter, it is still far, far better money wise than spending that kind of money on a Mondeo, 6, C5 etc.

Sorry OP for going off topic

!

pburns · 03-07-2008 9:27am

E92 wrote: »

But spending €35k on a big Citroen or Ford is just sheer madness. Depreciation is the biggest cost of running a car. If people want to choose a high spec Mondeo or C5 then I've no problem with that. The Mondeo is a superb car as it has been ever since the word Mondeo entered the lexicon. The new one is arguably better than the 3 series, though I'd need to drive them to be sure. I'd rather be in the back seat of it over the E90 any day of the week. The Citroen also looks fantastic and seems to be getting great reviews.

I agree fully. However I found the BMW dealer I visited was offering 3.5 grand less:eek: than all the 'mass-market' brands I wa quoted for. He was claiming the BMW was already such a bargain (with the VRT reductions) I couldn't expect any more:rolleyes: (even though this was waaaaay below the book value of my car). He was banking on me rolling over for the 'prestige' of owning a BMW.

I didn't try any other Bimmer dealers because frankly the car didn't really excite me the way I expected. But it nullifies somewhat the apparant advantages of the reduced gap between mass-market/premium prices. The Ford/Citroens et al. will always have considerably more margin to play with. So depreciation-wise it probably all evens out and the choice remains - basic 3-series/A4 or well-loaded C5/Mazda 6... Not as clear-cut as some make out.

I guess I have to admit to a little prejudice against me-too German metal though.

I bought a Legacy, which I view as neither mass-market nor premium. I think I will always look for something a bit different and if Saab or Alfa produced something decent they'd also be right up my street.:)

Anan1 · 03-07-2008 10:08am

pburns wrote: »

I bought a Legacy, which I view as neither mass-market nor premium. I think I will always look for something a bit different and if Saab or Alfa produced something decent they'd also be right up my street.:)

My thinking exactly. That's the new diesel that you ordered, isn't it? Have you got it yet?

pburns · 03-07-2008 10:46am

Anan1 wrote: »

My thinking exactly. That's the new diesel that you ordered, isn't it? Have you got it yet?

No but hopefully collecting it tomorrow. Can't feckin' wait

I might add to the previous discussion - a couple of Mazda dealers I visited both had late-model BMW 3-series. In both cases it was traded for the new Mazda 6 petrol in sport spec- one guy hated the austre nature of his 318. Seeing the boggo 3 next to a bespoilered 6 in Sport spec I could see why...

http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/Mazda/Mazda6/1.8-SPORT/1117823/

http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/BMW/318/i-ES/998322/

RedorDead · 03-07-2008 10:53am

E92 wrote: »

I don't think they were a "disaster" somehow.

2,836 registrations were made yesterday.

See here for more.

Certainly not affecting premium brands anyway. After two reg days Audi have a 7% market share compared to their normal 2.5-3%. I can only imagine what BMW's is like!!!

copacetic · 03-07-2008 11:04am

E92 wrote: »

The C200 CDI has 136 bhp, and the C220 CDI has 170 bhp. Merc's website confirms this!

I know E, thats what I was saying

. The issue is that graham gave the wrong C220bhp, but you corrected him with the C200bhp, not the C220.

Anan1 · 03-07-2008 11:07am

pburns wrote: »

No but hopefully collecting it tomorrow. Can't feckin' wait

If my Forester is anything to go by, you're going to be a very happy man!

E92 · 03-07-2008 11:16am

copacetic wrote: »

I know E, thats what I was saying. The issue is that graham gave the wrong C220bhp, but you corrected him with the C200bhp, not the C220.

My apologies. I thought he said 200, oh well he has 50 bhp out then;)!

@pburns: looks like you bought a nice car;)! They should win a lot of conquest sales as they roll out that diesel in a lot of other cars. I challenge anyone to find a saloon of that size with 150 bhp and all the goodies found in a Legacy for the price!

RedorDead wrote: »

Certainly not affecting premium brands anyway. After two reg days Audi have a 7% market share compared to their normal 2.5-3%. I can only imagine what BMW's is like!!!

Any chance you know how BMW are getting on? 7% is extraordinary for Audi, but I'm sure now that they've gotten so much cheaper we'll see a lot more cars with 4 rings on the front in the future than before.

I'd also love to know how Merc are doing as well, since they caught us all on the hop with pricing, just look at how cheap the E220 CDI now is!

Recession? What recession:D?

TomMc · 03-07-2008 11:51am

But then Subarus in today's world have the same kind of following that Lancia had in their heyday. For those that value engineering and character above image and that is how it should be.

---

The lower a persons self-image the more important possessions become. They falsely perceive it compensates for their shortcomings. Except it is a never ending cycle. When the effect wears off they need something bigger and better to replace it to get their fix. For all those badgeheads who buy pretentious entry level German cars (as Barbie & Ken do not really appreciate as a motoring entity as they are more about costume jewellery / socio-economic affectations) what it actually is saying is how much they have to spend to feel good about themselves, which highlights how inedequate they feel. Not too mention how clueless they are. I mean they are scorned by those in the know and they would only impress the type of people who aren't worth impressing. And they live their lives based on the opinions of these same people, keeping up with the Jones's. It is all a bit naff.

---

The plus side in all this is that the entry level version of a well engineered car, is still a much better option than a top of the range version of a more generic one. This was the case in the past where Merc's and the like were built from granite. Unfortunately most prestige cars today are as mass produced as the next. The gap has closed considerably. Mainstream manufacturers have upped their game big time while the others have dumbed down somewhat. In fact BMW or Mercedes couldn't build a car as good as say a Subaru or a Ford for anything close to the same kind of money. It is not their area of expertise. Each to their own and all that. But it is great that companies like Subaru offer something different and refreshing as do Citroen with their C6. These cars offer great value on the used market and are a best buy for the motoring individualist, who is clued up enough not to follow the crowd.

03-07-2008 8:11pm

pburns wrote: »

No but hopefully collecting it tomorrow. Can't feckin' wait

Picked up mine yesterday - only drove it properly today - its fantastic though it'll take a while to loosen up - to think that I nearly bought an Avensis :eek:

Did I say that it was fantastic?

New car sales a disaster!!!!!!!!!!!

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