Footballers as role models? The Barton problem

--amadeus--

Joey Barton has been found guilty of another assault and there is press speculation that Newcastle may sack him. That would involve writing off a player currently worth 3 - 4 million (he cost almost £6 million) but would save around 3 million a year in wages.

On the face of it Barton deserves it - he's got a track record of violence and no club wants someone with his reputation representing it. Nor can it be good froma commercial perspective - sponsor our club and have a convicted man wear your logo!

But is it fair? After all if Barton worked in a factory he wouldn't lose his job over an assault charge. Being able to kick a ball doesn't automatically qualify you as a role model and few footballers would promote themselves as such. Do we expect to much? And Barton clearly seems to have troubles and issues - rehabilitation and help rather than sacking and more trouble may be more in line to help with what may be deep psychological problems - look at Gazza; footballers are not immune to mental health issues.

Or is he beyond help and should the fact he can play a bit of ball not protect him from the consequences of his actions?

Helix

he shouldnt lose his job, and at the end of the day thats exactly what it is

he is a professional footballer, hes paid to play football. its not his fault that puts him on a pedastal or that it makes kids look up to him. he is under zero obligation imo to do anything other than play football for his club

theres no way he should be paid while hes behind bars tho

CHD

Footballers sign contracts and must abide by the rules.Clubs dont want trouble makers who create bad press and also wouldnt want a player who could be locked up every now and again.

Helix

chdpoker wrote: »

Footballers sign contracts and must abide by the rules.Clubs dont want trouble makers who create bad press and also wouldnt want a player who could be locked up every now and again.

the point is that the rules should be no different for johnny footbally than they are for stevie factory worker

--amadeus--

If Stevie factory worker lost his rag on the production line and smacked teh fella next to him he would lose his job though - it would be conidered gross misconduct. Same as Mutu failing a drugs test, anyone else in any job who tested positive for coke would face the sack.

CHD

--amadeus-- wrote: »

If Stevie factory worker lost his rag on the production line and smacked teh fella next to him he would lose his job though - it would be conidered gross misconduct. Same as Mutu failing a drugs test, anyone else in any job who tested positive for coke would face the sack.

exactly and its the way it should be

Helix

--amadeus-- wrote: »

If Stevie factory worker lost his rag on the production line and smacked teh fella next to him he would lose his job though - it would be conidered gross misconduct

barton never played for city again and was offloaded, no?

had he not been worth such a large amount of money hed have been sacked, but city wanted money for him, and got it which was their call to make for a valuable commodity

if stevie factory worker was worth 5.5m and his factory reckoned they could get it for him, theyd suspend him and sell him, like city did

event

--amadeus-- wrote: »

But is it fair? After all if Barton worked in a factory he wouldn't lose his job over an assault charge.

its written into his contract so its tough

many people who work in the public eye or would be well known would have it in writing that if they do anything to bring the name of their employers into disrepute they will have their contract terminated.

therecklessone

event wrote: »

its written into his contract so its tough

Exactly, they can only sack him in accordance with employment law or his contract.

My contract states that criminal prosecution is a sackable offence, and it cost a few quid to train me so my employer would be writing off a decent chunk of wedge.

MuPpItJoCkEy

It's gross mis conduct and should be sacked but doubt that will happen. He'll be suspended probably or else even kept.

I wouldn't say no club will say no to him because they'll just take a chance on him and say to the press that after long talks, we believe Joey has been rehabilitated and would be a good addition to our club etc.

What I think he should do is go to Vinny Jones for advice on how to get some of them killer roles such as the ones Vinny has had in Lock Stock and Snatch. For some reason, I think it would suit him.

Kildarered

Barton will be out in 3-10 days and will have to wear an electronic tag. Think Newcastle will give him 1 more chance as keegan gets on with him and try and keep him on the straight and narrow. It will be a tough job though

Unearthly

Helix wrote: »

he shouldnt lose his job, and at the end of the day thats exactly what it is

he is a professional footballer, hes paid to play football. its not his fault that puts him on a pedastal or that it makes kids look up to him. he is under zero obligation imo to do anything other than play football for his club

theres no way he should be paid while hes behind bars tho

Refreshing to see this as the first post in this topic

spot on imo

MuPpItJoCkEy

Heard on Skysports Sports News tonight that Bolton are interested in him.

On a guess though, would you think this is the last bit of trouble Mr Barton will get into, has he learnt his leason or is it a matter of time before something else happens?

MuPpItJoCkEy

Unearthly wrote: »

Refreshing to see this as the first post in this topic

spot on imo

Unless his profession is boxing lets say, well then punching a work mate ain't a problem, even under the spotlight with the public all watching. I work in a call centre and don't have half the world watching me or even have to deal with people face to face apart from my collegues.

If I decked someone, that's it, I've got my P45 confirmed quick smart. Why if he is only a pro footballer (just another job), should he not get the same treatment as me in that case?

In Bartons case, he is being watched by plenty of people, some with the mental age of children and others simply being children. These children go out and practice football, deck some other young fella but it's okay because he heard that his favourite footballer done it.

Personally (although I have posted quiet a bit on this subject), I can't say it bothers me all too much what happens but a point is a point. He will be dealt with differently and probably not be sacked because he's worth more transferred. On a business sense, that's what I would do although just getting the point across, that I'd be straight away sacked for the same thing.

themont85

The PL and/or Newcastle should suspend him for 3 to 12 months imo. Being a pro football player entails resonsibilities greater than it just being your job. If it was his first offence then maybe give him another chance before suspension but this isn't exactly that. At the end of his suspension period he should be on a last chance, if he messes up again then banned indefinately. Its tough but in my opinion if you have the gift of being able to play at that level with the money ect the fans expect better and you've got to play by the rules.

Charlie

MuPpItJoCkEy wrote: »

On a guess though, would you think this is the last bit of trouble Mr Barton will get into, has he learnt his leason or is it a matter of time before something else happens?

This is the £4 million pound Q. that KK and Mike Ashley are presently faced with. I think most people would agree that when Barton keeps his head down, and is in form, he is a quality player, and an asset to most teams. However, should they keep him on, and he does let us down again, then it's serious egg on our faces, and we could be left short in terms of a squad position.

Personally, I would give him one more chance. Tony Adams has already offered his support through his Sporting Chance clinic, and KK has turned players around before (Dunney Monster at City). Also, KK said towards the end of the season that Barton had really made an effort to keep his head down and excel at training. Afterall, all these incidents are pre-Keegan, and he should be given a chance to try and turn him around.

I wouldn't agree though with this comparision to factory workers. Many employees in high profile positions have been let go from their jobs after fcuking up in the public eye. If the club decide to let him go, they are fully within their rights, as he has certainly brought the club into disrepute.

If kept, I would like to see Barton take a wage cut with no questions asked. He needs to make a gesture to the club and fans should we put our faith in him.

corcaighcailin9

Like it or not, all pro football players are role models for everyone who pays big money to watch them, week in week out. There is no excuse for them not behaving accordingly.

And one thing I think hasn't been mentioned here (correct me if I'm wrong) is that this isn't a matter of one punch being thrown - by all accounts the first punch he threw knocked the bloke unconscious and even then, the thug continued to attack him while he was defenceless on the ground. What does it say about society today that he got away with a suspended sentence and is now free to go back to football and earn thousands of punds a week with any club that is stupid enough to take him??

SantryRed

MuPpItJoCkEy wrote: »

It's gross mis conduct and should be sacked but doubt that will happen. He'll be suspended probably or else even kept.

He was with City when this happened! They'd hardly sack someone who's worth 5.5 million. Obviously they'd sell him.

Charlie

Yeah, I think people need to remember that this happened at City, and he was transferred in by the Club ith full knowlegde of the events.

For me, the Dabo incident shouldn't really be a factor in the club's decision (if anything it favours Barton as he serves no time for it) as they bought him in full knowledge of it. The incident at Christmas which he is presently serving time for is what the club need to address.

corcaighcailin9

It's interesting how Gary Megson made his interest known so quickly. I can't imagine managers will be falling over each other to sign him tbh.

JerryHandbag

corcaighcailin9 wrote: »

I can't imagine managers will be falling over each other to sign him tbh.

I agree.....if NUFC do sack him, theyre not exactly losing serious quality are they? Players in the past have been welcomed back with open arms (Cantona) or gone on and proved themselves at other clubs (Di Canio) after overcoming controversy, but they were class players, Barton isnt even England B material. Its only today i learned that he kept punching Dabo while he was still on the ground.....frickin animal!

leninbenjamin

corcaighcailin9 wrote: »

It's interesting how Gary Megson made his interest known so quickly. I can't imagine managers will be falling over each other to sign him tbh.

he's a very very good player and if Newcastle cut him loose he'll be available for peanuts. many will jump at that.

it's very hard to know with Barton. I mean all the information we have about these incidents arrives at us via the tabloids. he's had a dodgier upbringing than most from what I can make out, so he may be as much a victim of circumstances. For all his faults though, I'd say Keegan will be as experienced as most when it comes to handling this type of player. I think he'll make the right decision whatever it is but not knowing Barton personally i haven't a clue what that is.

Charlie

leninbenjamin wrote: »

he's a very very good player and if Newcastle cut him loose he'll be available for peanuts. many will jump at that.

it's very hard to know with Barton. I mean all the information we have about these incidents arrives at us via the tabloids. he's had a dodgier upbringing than most from what I can make out, so he may be as much a victim of circumstances. For all his faults though, I'd say Keegan will be as experienced as most when it comes to handling this type of player. I think he'll make the right decision whatever it is but not knowing Barton personally i haven't a clue what that is.

That's about as reasoned a post I have read on any forum on the matter thus far. Not including my on posts of course

PDN

I don't particularly want players to be role models. What kind of moron picks a footballer as a guide for moral behaviour anyway?

However, if a manager wants to instill a good atmosphere in the dressing room then it probably makes sense not to include a nasty psychotic thug in your squad.

--amadeus--

PDN wrote: »

I don't particularly want players to be role models. What kind of moron picks a footballer as a guide for moral behaviour anyway?

Kids do.

When I was at school and we played a bit of ball we played matches. The other day I saw my young lad and a couple of his friends in teh front garden with a ball and they were practising diving - one would run at the other and then fall over and roll around, I kid you not.

With an ever increasing lack of respect on the pitch from players the idea that it is acceptable to argue with authority figures is being quitley re-inforced. So a young lad sees the captain of his club abuse the referee without sanction and it's that tiny bit easier to be smart with a teacher.

The Barton thing is just an extreme example of it - the lad did have a hard time and for his own good I hope that Tony Adams is able to help him. But I also would like to see some form of consequence for his actions. Again it is to show that if you do wrong then you pay a price, you don't get away with it.

Eirebear

This whole thing about footballers being "role models" annoys me a little bit.

Why is it that we are constantly looking for someone to blame the problems of the world on rather than looking a bit closer to home?

Parents need to keep a close eye on their kids and explain to them the good and bad of their so called role models.

Im not a parent myself so i may be completely off the mark here, but i know if i was a kid now and grew up watching Barton and his antics my father would have taken me aside and shown me other footballers, footballers who are every bit as good as the lad on the field, but footballers who treat their skills and proffesion with the respect it deserves.

By all means watch the lad on the pitch, he is a cracking player after all, but that is where the role model side of him ends. His off the field antics should be used as a warning by parents to their kids as an example of how not to conduct yourself.

It all comes down to sensible parenting.

corcaighcailin9

Eirebear wrote: »

This whole thing about footballers being "role models" annoys me a little bit.

Why is it that we are constantly looking for someone to blame the problems of the world on rather than looking a bit closer to home?

Parents need to keep a close eye on their kids and explain to them the good and bad of their so called role models.

Im not a parent myself so i may be completely off the mark here, but i know if i was a kid now and grew up watching Barton and his antics my father would have taken me aside and shown me other footballers, footballers who are every bit as good as the lad on the field, but footballers who treat their skills and proffesion with the respect it deserves.

By all means watch the lad on the pitch, he is a cracking player after all, but that is where the role model side of him ends. His off the field antics should be used as a warning by parents to their kids as an example of how not to conduct yourself.

It all comes down to sensible parenting.

Whoa the whole area of sensible parenting is a totally different issue. Of course in an ideal world, parents would of course monitor who their kids look up to but be realistic, that does not happen.

--amadeus--

I see your point but I think it may be a bit simplistic. As a parent I outline the rights and wrongs and we talk about (for example) WWE wrestling and why one character is doing wrong and how that shouldn't be done "in real life" and what have you (the wee lad is going on 7 BTW). If - and I hope this never happens - he followed NUFC I'd be making it clear that no matter what happens and no matter what he does on the pitch Barton isn't someone you look up to or respect.

But there are two additional factors at play. First is that the younger generation is exposed to more media now than previous generations, so parents voices are more and more drowned out. Like it or not fewer and fewer parents seem able to draw the boundaries of right & wrong for thier kids (but thats all a bit OT for a soccer board).
Footballers are by nature looked up to and immitated (otherwise Nike wouldn't bother with sponsorship). Any player who takes teh sponsorship money with one hand while denying the responsibilities that go along with it is hypocitical and making a tough parenting job harder.

The second factor in that you mentioned parents pointing children away from negative models and towards positive ones. An element of this is "you don't want to do the same things as him" which begs the question "why?". Well look what happened to Barton after the conviction "errrr....nothing!" Not a strong argument, is it?

Back to Barton as a specific his strongest argument is that NUFC signed him with all of this done so they bought the package. As such they probably aren't in the strongest of positions and it would be nice to see rehabilitation work. I supose that - as an idealist - I'd like to see some remorse or gesture that he sees what he did was wrong.

corcaighcailin9

I wouldn't say it's simplistic - basic maybe but very much the way things are. You talk about parents voices being drowned out and that goes for every authority figure a child comes across. I'm speaking as a teacher and I can tell you that the more years go by the less respect kids are showing and it's frightening. My area is primary - I'm not even talking about 15/16 year olds.
Good for you trying to teach your child right from wrong but do you honestly think every parent takes the time to do the same? No way. In their absence, kids look to other role models and rightly or wrongly, it's football players and why not (they think)? Kids wear their soccer jersies every day, spend every spare moment playing football themselves when they're not watching it on tv. Guys like Terry and co are these kids' idols and I don't think we've used that word here. As we know, most big teams have the vast majority shown live or else they're on MOTD. When a decision goes against a team like Chelsea, what happens? The ref is hounded. The players are clearly using swear words and their body language is aggressive and the worst of it is that they are often arguing clear cut decisions.I'm only using Chelsea as an example here. What message does this send to the kids? I often say to the lads have you ever seen a ref change his mind because the players weren't happy? But they don't listen - their heros are doing it and what happens when they go out and play their under 10 matches? They replicate the behaviour they have seen because that's what their idols do.
Just my (longwinded) opinion.

--amadeus--

Sorry corcaighcailin9, cross post.

I agree 100% with you - in an earlier post I said exactly the same thing; every time a child sees a player mouth off to a referee it becomes a tiny bit easier to be smart with a teacher.

My "simplistic" point was a reply to Eirebear saying that parents should monitor thier childrens roe models.

Galvasean

Very hard for a parent to monitor a child's role models. Regardless of what the parents say the kids will like who they like. Heck, if the parents tell them not to follow a particular role model it will more than likely make them want to follow them even more. That's the way kids are.
On top of that if a kid is into football (as an example) they are right in the media's cross hairs. Look at any big club and they have first team players who you'd consider a disgrace. Every football magazine, TV show and newspaper goes on about how great Ronaldo is so kids who support United want to be like him. It used to be Beckham. Now instead of practicing their free kicks and gelling their hair, they are doing step overs and diving and asking for more money (possibly :P).
With all that in mind saying its the parents' fault is a bit of a kop out.

BTW not picking on United, just using them as a high profile example. My team has a couple of scumbags too (Emmanuel Eboue, I'm looking at you...).

Eirebear

corcaighcailin9 wrote: »

I wouldn't say it's simplistic - basic maybe but very much the way things are. You talk about parents voices being drowned out and that goes for every authority figure a child comes across. I'm speaking as a teacher and I can tell you that the more years go by the less respect kids are showing and it's frightening. My area is primary - I'm not even talking about 15/16 year olds.
Good for you trying to teach your child right from wrong but do you honestly think every parent takes the time to do the same? No way. In their absence, kids look to other role models and rightly or wrongly, it's football players and why not (they think)? Kids wear their soccer jersies every day, spend every spare moment playing football themselves when they're not watching it on tv. Guys like Terry and co are these kids' idols and I don't think we've used that word here. As we know, most big teams have the vast majority shown live or else they're on MOTD. When a decision goes against a team like Chelsea, what happens? The ref is hounded. The players are clearly using swear words and their body language is aggressive and the worst of it is that they are often arguing clear cut decisions.I'm only using Chelsea as an example here. What message does this send to the kids? I often say to the lads have you ever seen a ref change his mind because the players weren't happy? But they don't listen - their heros are doing it and what happens when they go out and play their under 10 matches? They replicate the behaviour they have seen because that's what their idols do.
Just my (longwinded) opinion.

corcaighcailin9 wrote: »

Whoa the whole area of sensible parenting is a totally different issue. Of course in an ideal world, parents would of course monitor who their kids look up to but be realistic, that does not happen.

You seem to be contradicting yourself a little here, it is not a seperate issue in the slightest IMO. We are talking about football players being role models, and using the case of Joey Barton as an example of how his behaviours and actions may, or may not affect the children who look up to him.
Seems fairly relevant to me.

You then go on to talk about how many parents dont spend the time that amadeus does with his children trying to teach them the differences between right and wrong, seemingly shrugging it off as if thats just the way the world is.

Yet you see fit to blame football players on TV for kids swearing at a referee during an underage football match?

How does this work exactly?

Charlie

Eirebear wrote: »

You then go on to talk about how many parents dont spend the time that amadeus does with his children trying to teach them the differences between right and wrong, seemingly shrugging it off as if thats just the way the world is.

Yet you see fit to blame football players on TV for kids swearing at a referee during an underage football match?

How does this work exactly?

Exactly.

Could it not be said that Joey Barton had no admirable role models when he was growing up, and thus, is merely a product of what was around him?

It's chicken and egg stuff really. Barton's actions were despicable and he should be held accountable, and it shouldn't be passed off on his upbringing or his own role models. But likewise, he shouldn't be held on a moral pedestal today, and blamed for the problems of today's youth.

Eirebear

charlie mchugh wrote: »

Exactly.

Could it not be said that Joey Barton had no admirable role models when he was growing up, and thus, is merely a product of what was around him?

It's chicken and egg stuff really. Barton's actions were despicable and he should be held accountable, and it shouldn't be passed off on his upbringing or his own role models. But likewise, he shouldn't be held on a moral pedestal today, and blamed for the problems of today's youth.

lol, this conversation could go on for a while!

Once a person reaches adult age then they must be held accountable for their actions. Barton can have no excuses whatsoever.

My main point though was that we cant sit around complaining about what football players/TV/computer games/musicians do to our kids through their behaviour when it seems acceptable that we live in a world where many people cant be bothered spending the time to talk to their kids about these people.

I know its a simplified viewpoint but its fairly logical i think.

--amadeus--

I accept that Barton had a rough childhood. He grew up in Huyton which would be a tough enough area and growing up in the late 80s / early 90s he would have seen his fair share of trouble and "social unrest" in and around Merseyside. Lots of people with his background end up in jail, with drug problems and so on.

But Barton escaped, he's earning tens of thousands of pounds a week and - as an England international - has made it to the very top of one of the most competitive environments there is.

In light of his background and the pressures of modern celebrity culture and high profile elite football there is a case to be made for his breakdowns being understandible.

The difficulty is that Steven Gerrard is also from Huyton, is pretty much the same age and would have an identical background. Like Barton he clearly had "anger issues" early on (his Dad paid a merseyside "fixer" to take care of one problem and he has picked up his share of red cards). Unlike Barton he learned his lesson and is now a fantastic role model. The same could be said for Peter Reid (another Huyton lad) or any one of the dozen other professional footballers from that general area. Or, closer to home, there is Roy Keane - look at how he's matured. At one stage he was a pin up boy for bad behaviour; now he comes across as rational, articulate, calm - a good role model in other words.

So I suppose I agree - Barton is an adult and should be judged the same manner and way as any other adult. Being a footballer doesn't exempt him from that. As it happens I think he also has a moral responsibility (especially considering he is apparently quite religious) to set some form of example, but that's probably just me being naive.

Eirebear

--amadeus-- wrote: »

So I suppose I agree - Barton is an adult and should be judged the same manner and way as any other adult. Being a footballer doesn't exempt him from that. As it happens I think he also has a moral responsibility (especially considering he is apparently quite religious) to set some form of example, but that's probably just me being naive.

But does him being a footballer mean that he somehow has more of a moral responsibility than any of the rest of us?

As i said before, i am not a parent, but i have younger siblings and also 2 very young neices whom i have a resposibility towards morally.

If i was to be jailed for beating up a colleague, these are the people i would be letting down.
In the same way, the only people Barton has truly let down are his own close family and friends, the kids who may or may not look up to him, in my opinion, are not his responsibility.

corcaighcailin9

Eirebear wrote: »

You seem to be contradicting yourself a little here, it is not a seperate issue in the slightest IMO. We are talking about football players being role models, and using the case of Joey Barton as an example of how his behaviours and actions may, or may not affect the children who look up to him.
Seems fairly relevant to me.

You then go on to talk about how many parents dont spend the time that amadeus does with his children trying to teach them the differences between right and wrong, seemingly shrugging it off as if thats just the way the world is.

Yet you see fit to blame football players on TV for kids swearing at a referee during an underage football match?


How does this work exactly?

Don't know where to start here tbh but I (obviously) didn't mean to contradict what I said so I'll try and sort out the confusion.

I'm not sure what I'm perceived to be shrugging off. If it's my opinion that not every parent takes the time to teach their child right from wrong, unlike Amadeus, then I 100% stand over that. And I don't kid myself - that is the way the world is. I'm not making any promises to change the world here. If that's not the contradiction then I apologise - I'm more than a little confused here. As for the cursing at a ref in an underage game, I'm not sure what I said here that has caused you to ask 'how does that work exactly?' Sorry, brain is fried

Eirebear

corcaighcailin9 wrote: »

Don't know where to start here tbh but I (obviously) didn't mean to contradict what I said so I'll try and sort out the confusion.

I'm not sure what I'm perceived to be shrugging off. If it's my opinion that not every parent takes the time to teach their child right from wrong, unlike Amadeus, then I 100% stand over that. And I don't kid myself - that is the way the world is. I'm not making any promises to change the world here. If that's not the contradiction then I apologise - I'm more than a little confused here. As for the cursing at a ref in an underage game, I'm not sure what I said here that has caused you to ask 'how does that work exactly?' Sorry, brain is fried

Sorry im probably a wee bit tetchy today as im trying to quit smoking (your not the first person ive apologised to today!) so i may be coming off as overly aggressive.

I do think i had a valid point somewhere, but ill need to go figure out what it was.....:D

corcaighcailin9

Please do... and get back to me
Good luck with the fags. I quit again about a month ago. I dunno is worth it at all. Have my OH calling me a "spluttering donkey" (I kid you not) as I have the post quit smoking cough. Such fun. Will all be worth it I'm sure. Hang in there and get back to me as I HATE being called contradictory or being told I don't have a relevant point! Seriously, it might keep me awake tonight (that and the coughing )

Corben Dallas

I used to like Barton as a talented player and a bit of a joker. (b4 the team mate and public assault charges) But he wont change, he is and always will be a scumbag. Newcastle should sell him to whoever wants him cause he cant be controled.

Sad thing is that he is a talented player but cant take the 30/40(?) grand a week and act like a professional.

Anyone to rains blows on an unconscious prone team mate should never play Professional Football again.

Charlie

I think the recent takeover talk might not bode well for Barton. The club at present have far too many players on big wages. Joey is making £65,000 pw. If MA does want to sell up, he'll want the likes of Barton off the wage bill to make the books look a bit tidier, and the club more attractive.