Tri Nations 2008: Thread will contain spoilers

Stev_o

So it starts on Saturday and reports say that it goes on till 2011

5 July 2008
New Zealand v South Africa Westpac Stadium, Wellington
Referee: Wayne Barnes

12 July 2008
New Zealand v South Africa Carisbrook, Dunedin
Referee: Matt Goddard

19 July 2008
Australia v South Africa Subiaco Oval, Perth
Referee: Bryce Lawrence

26 July 2008
Australia v New Zealand Stadium Australia, Sydney
Referee: Craig Joubert

2 August 2008
New Zealand v Australia Eden Park, Auckland
Referee: Marius Jonker

16 August 2008
South Africa v New Zealand Newlands Stadium, Cape Town
Referee: Stuart Dickinson

23 August 2008
South Africa v Australia Kings Park Stadium, Durban
Referee: Lyndon Bray

30 August 2008
South Africa v Australia Ellis Park, Johannesburg
Referee: Bryce Lawrence

13 September 2008
Australia v New Zealand Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane
Referee: Jonathan Kaplan


Its a pretty huge fixture list for a pretty boring competition =/

Anywho any thoughts on the first game between South Africa and New Zealand? Teams are as follows

New Zealand: Mils Muliaina; Sitiveni Sivivatu, Conrad Smith, Ma'a Nonu, Rudi Wulf; Daniel Carter, Andy Ellis; Tony Woodcock, Andrew Hore, Greg Somerville, Brad Thorn, Ali Williams, Adam Thomson, Rodney So'oialo (capt), Jerome Kaino.
Replacements: Keven Mealamu, Neemia Tialata, Anthony Boric, Sione Lauaki, Jimmy Cowan, Stephen Donald, Leon MacDonald.

South Africa: Conrad Jantjes; Odwa Ndungane, Adrian Jacobs, Jean de Villiers, Bryan Habana; Butch James, Ricky Januarie; Gurthro Steenkamp, John Smit (capt), CJ van der Linde, Bakkies Botha, Victor Matfield, Schalk Burger, Juan Smith, Joe van Niekerk.
Replacements: Bismarck du Plessis, Brian Mujati, Andries Bekker, Luke Watson, Bolla Conradie, Francois Steyn, Percy Montgomery.


My bet is New Zealand by 10 as that South Africa team looks like muck. Ndungane on the wing ha De Villiers must be taking the p1ss he's a awful player and why he isnt starting Kankowsi is beyond me.

toomevara

Stev_o wrote: »

My bet is New Zealand by 10 as that South Africa team looks like muck. Ndungane on the wing ha De Villiers must be taking the p1ss he's a awful player and why he isnt starting Kankowsi is beyond me.

The politics of quota and race unfortunately. On the strength of the summer tours I'd have picked the Boks to marginally shade it against the patchily brilliant but flakey-under-pressure Kiwis....but that boks squad is a lttle...ahem..'eccentric' shall we say....

Was also impressed with passages of Wallaby play against the (admittedly awful) French last weekend...they play some lovely stuff in the lose, going forward...signs perhaps of a mini-recovery, so I wouldn't write them off entirely...

Pinetree Boy

Yes- some strange SA selections but they have looked very good in early games. Aussie hard to pick. They are always competitive and one of the cleaverest sides in world rugby but Ireland should have beaten them and the French side that came South was pathetic.

Will be interested to see ELVs at international level. Understand will include new lineout numbers rule and collapsing malls. Think these may suit NZ and Aus more than SA.

zAbbo

So they're playing each other 3 times again!

I normally watch a few games, then get bored and forget about it.

Does anyone have a run down of Sky Sports TV Times...

toomevara

zAbbo wrote: »

Does anyone have a run down of Sky Sports TV Times...

5 July New Zealand v South Africa SS1 from 8am Wellington
12 July New Zealand v South Africa SS2 from 8am Dunedin
19 July Australia v South Africa SS3 from 10.30am Perth
26 July Australia v New Zealand SS2 from 10.30am Sydney
2 August New Zealand v Australia SS2 from 8.30am Auckland
16 August South Africa v New Zealand SSX from 1.30pm Cape Town
23 August South Africa v Australia SSX from 1.30pm Durban
30 August South Africa v Australia SS from 1.30pm Johannesburg
13 Sept Australia v New Zealand SS from 10.30am Brisbane

Don't know which channel last two games are on....

zAbbo

Another horrible evening in Wellington.

Anyone else up? roll call?

zAbbo

Bit of a boring lack lustre haka, and now on to the rugby.

copacetic

looked like a spear to me, prob should have been a yellow. conditions are as bad as here, so not expecting a great game..

trout

Wasn't a spear ... it was quite a gentle drop, all things considered.

Some very physical hits, and lots of 'afters' ... no sign of a try ... lots of errors.

trout

Excellent try from Habana ... breakaway, sprint, drop & slide.
Game is starting to get my attention

Smith is off - injured, he's walking off, doesn't look too bad.

copacetic

dunno, he picked him up rotated him so he could drive him down and then dropped him instead, and it was long after the whistle. If you pick someone up like that you can't drop them you have to put him down otherwise it is a spear, thats my understanding anyway.


good try though.

zAbbo

Probably was a spear, in that he didn't return him to the ground, he just let him go mid air, that and the ball wasn't in play should have resulted in a yellow.

Jackz

Monty didn't get much time to release there.

toomevara

zAbbo wrote: »

Probably was a spear, in that he didn't return him to the ground, he just let him go mid air, that and the ball wasn't in play should have resulted in a yellow.

Once again an official exhibits an alarming case of selective blindness in the face of AB foul play...that was a clear yellow card,verging on red for me. Happened right in front of the referee. A classic underhand AB tactic, amply rewarded by supine, cowardly officiating, wrecks my head..Attempt to take out a team's talisman early on in the game..now where have I seen that before...

trout

toomevara wrote: »

Once again an official exhibits an alarming case of selective blindness in the face of AB foul play...that was a clear yellow card,verging on red for me. Happened right in front of the referee. A classic underhand AB tactic, amply rewarded by supine, cowardly officiating, wrecks my head..Attempt to take out a team's talisman early on in the game..now where have I seen that before...

looking at the replays ... yellow, if not red.
Regarding tactics ... in fairness, Carter took a few schmacks early on in the game. I think I counted 3 late hits on him.

I thought there was a lot of afters in the game.

copacetic

agreed, it came from both sides. didn't think it was as toomy is saying but when all 3 officials saw it they should have done something. Similar offence when the french plyer actually looked to put down the player got a yellow in the next game. sth africa stood up to them well enough at that rough stuff and some storming runs from the forwards but didn't really fancy the conditions.

Experiment at captain for New Zealand was a bit of a disaster I thought. Rodney threw 3 or 5 punches off the ball and would have been sent off if any of them had connected the early one when he had a go at Januarie at at ruck was the most blatant loss of control.

Stev_o

copacetic wrote: »

agreed, it came from both sides. didn't think it was as toomy is saying but when all 3 officials saw it they should have done something. Similar offence when the french plyer actually looked to put down the player got a yellow in the next game. sth africa stood up to them well enough at that rough stuff and some storming runs from the forwards but didn't really fancy the conditions.

Experiment at captain for New Zealand was a bit of a disaster I thought. Rodney threw 3 or 5 punches off the ball and would have been sent off if any of them had connected the early one when he had a go at Januarie at at ruck was the most blatant loss of control.

Wasnt a experiment Mccaw was injured and Rodney captains the 'Canes so it was always going to be given to him.

Who got MOTM? I hope it was Ali Williams he was immense for the AB the highlight being his 40 meter touch finder when Carter was at the bottom of the ruck

dub_skav

Didn't see the game or the incident, but just wanted to comment on your discussion surrounding tackles. It is not a "spear" unless you drive the player into the ground which is extremely dangerous, however just dropping a player in the air is also dangerous play and should be sanctioned with a penalty(+warning)/card depending on the exact circumstances.

As I said I didn't see this particular incident just commenting on definitions

toomevara

dub_skav wrote: »

As I said I didn't see this particular incident just commenting on definitions

Through the wonders of sky+ (how did we ever live without it) I've perused the incident at my leisure,sad I know...It doesnt get any better with repeat viewing. Thorn has at least been cited and will miss the next match, but smith is out with a groin strain sustained in the tackle...has justice been done?..Hardly..was a yellow at least...

zAbbo

Did Smit suffer that injury during the incident?

It deserved a yellow on first showing, the ball was dead.

I thought the referee should have stamped his authority on the game early on when things were obviously physical, with a lot of off the ball handbags going on.

toomevara

zAbbo wrote: »

Did Smit suffer that injury during the incident?

Allegedly...From todays Indo's report of the game by Peter Bills:

"The Springboks were unfortunate to lose captain John Smit, forced out of the match and almost certainly this Tri-Nations trip because of a groin damaged in a spear tackle from All Blacks lock Brad Thorn. The Australian referee Stuart Dickinson bottled it in terms of any sanction at the time, a crass desertion of his duties."

copacetic

Stev_o wrote: »

Wasnt a experiment Mccaw was injured and Rodney captains the 'Canes so it was always going to be given to him.

Who got MOTM? I hope it was Ali Williams he was immense for the AB the highlight being his 40 meter touch finder when Carter was at the bottom of the ruck

sure it was, McCaw is out, you need to experiment with a captain for the next time it might happen. They tried Rodney and it was a disaster imo..

Stev_o

copacetic wrote: »

sure it was, McCaw is out, you need to experiment with a captain for the next time it might happen. They tried Rodney and it was a disaster imo..

How they easily beat SA who never looked liked winning they were cynical and powerful and Rodney lead from the front. They dont just give the captaincy to anyone you know and as i said he is the only other player in the squad who captains a Provincial side

ssmith6287

Australia look a good bet to me

zAbbo

There's an existing thread here - http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055327608

Please have a quick scan for a thread topic before posting.

(Australia are pants)

ssmith6287

woops my bad

RuggieBear

no worries. threads merged.

toomevara

ANyone watching this...v interesting game, what a final 5 mins we've got in store...come on the Boks!!!!

toomevara

Go Bokke!!! brilliant victory, super performance....despite the best efforts of yet another rubbish ref....

Stev_o

Was the ref Australian? If he is it would explain alot of things Australia produce woeful ref's.

As for the match it was okay nothing special just very physical Muliania was the only real bright spark for New Zealand most the night making several line brakes. The debate at Nonu at 12 will start now as he conceded way too many turnovers going into contact. Siviatua's form has really plummeted and for once New Zealand look a bit lacking in the wing department.

toomevara

Yeah, The ELVS are a nightmare, the game degenerates really quickly into a shapeless chuck about (basketball anyone)...If thats the shape of things to come for this years 3N, I reckon the Aussies could be in with a real shout, as their lack of power in the scrum utterly irrelevant...

Thought Januaurie gave the best scrum-half display I've seen in union for many a year...shows what a genuinely aggressive, attack minded SH can bring to a team..he tortured the AB's all morning and that try towards the end was out of the very top drawer...for me clear MOTM and the difference between the two, particularly with Matfield's ridiculous binning

Incidentally, I thought one of the major reasons for the intro of the ELV's was to mitigate against the kicking game and endless use of the bomb, but I lost count of the aerials in that game....

EdgarAllenPoo

toomevara wrote: »

Thought Januaurie gave the best scrum-half display I've seen in union for many a year...shows what a genuinely aggressive, attack minded SH can bring to a team..he tortured the AB's all morning and that try towards the end was out of the very top drawer...for me clear MOTM and the difference between the two, particularly with Matfield's ridiculous binning

Funny enough I was just thinking to myself that SA would have been better off starting with Pienaar...and 30 seconds later Januaurie goes and scores that try. Shows what I know:D

Sherifu

Caught the highlights on the news. Great win for SA. Nice individual effort.

DannyMach

toomevara wrote: »

Thought Januaurie gave the best scrum-half display I've seen in union for many a year...shows what a genuinely aggressive, attack minded SH can bring to a team..he tortured the AB's all morning and that try towards the end was out of the very top drawer...for me clear MOTM and the difference between the two, particularly with Matfield's ridiculous binning

Was one of their best players on the day but that might be going a bit far. Was at fault for conceding possession on at least 3 occassions and really surprised that the NZ pillar would fall for the dummy pass since he'd been looking for the break throughout the match. Du Preez is definetly the more complete SH with a far better kicking game being the obvious difference.

Thought the difference between the sides was up front myself. NZ had the better of the play in the backs but their backrow wasn't near as dynamic as the Bok's one with Burger again having a stormer.

Jilm

toomevara wrote: »

Yeah, The ELVS are a nightmare, the game degenerates really quickly into a shapeless chuck about (basketball anyone)...If thats the shape of things to come for this years 3N, I reckon the Aussies could be in with a real shout, as their lack of power in the scrum utterly irrelevant...

Thought Januaurie gave the best scrum-half display I've seen in union for many a year...shows what a genuinely aggressive, attack minded SH can bring to a team..he tortured the AB's all morning and that try towards the end was out of the very top drawer...for me clear MOTM and the difference between the two, particularly with Matfield's ridiculous binning

Incidentally, I thought one of the major reasons for the intro of the ELV's was to mitigate against the kicking game and endless use of the bomb, but I lost count of the aerials in that game....

I agree, for me both 3N matches were a bit of a mess even though I could appreciate indivdual players skills. I thought the point of the ELVs were to remove the more negative aspects of gameplay, except for the most part they haven't, they've only introduced new headaches.

I always considered rugby union to be a bit like chess. However the ELVs seem to have transformed the game into a frenetic game of checkers (though I did like SAs set play from the shortened lineout that led to their first try, I can't see any other opposing team making the same mistake again).

I haven't found any SH criticism yet of the ELVs and I think the schism between hemispheres can only grow.. it's going to get ugly.

toomevara

Jilm wrote: »

I always considered rugby union to be a bit like chess. However the ELVs seem to have transformed the game into a frenetic game of checkers .

Excellent analogy which says it all, going to shamelessly plagiarise you in my many anti-ELV bar stool rants...

copacetic

Jilm wrote: »

I always considered rugby union to be a bit like chess. However the ELVs seem to have transformed the game into a frenetic game of checkers

nah, more like speed chess!

P.C.

Shorry, did not get to watch either game - BUT -

The southern hepisphere teams, playing in their ownn back yards, is the best rugby to watch! THE END!!!!! :D:D

anonymous_joe

Man, I hope you're drunk.

All I'll say is that I'm glad South Africa won. I don't like 'em much, but New Zealand were scumbags in the first game, and as ever they barely get punished. What goes around comes around.

toomevara

For some reason I'm intrigued by tomorrow's game. Two interesting selections and I reckon with the ELV's in place the Aussies could be the surprise package this season...

Australia: Adam Ashley-Cooper, Peter Hynes, Stirling Mortlock (capt), Berrick Barnes, Lote Tuqiri; Matt Giteau, Luke Burgess; Benn Robinson, Stephen Moore, Al Baxter, James Horwill, Nathan Sharpe, Rocky Elsom, George Smith, Wycliff Palu.

Replacements: Tatafu Polota-Nau, Matt Dunning, Hugh McMeniman, Phil Waugh, Sam Cordingley, Ryan Cross, Drew Mitchell.

South Africa: Conrad Jantjes, JP Pietersen, Francois Steyn, Jean de Villiers, Bryan Habana, Butch James, Ricky Januarie, Pierre Spies, Juan Smith, Schalk Burger, Victor Matfield (captain), Bakkies Botha, CJ van der Linde, Schalk Brits, Gurthro Steenkamp

Replacements: Adriaan Strauss, Tendai Mtawarira, Brian Mujati, Andries Bekker, Ryan Kankowski, Ruan Pienaar, Peter Grant.

Jilm

Saffers are going to have to start stringing some away results together to make the 3N interesting.

I'll be watching ..if only to have more anti-ELV ammo to use against my kiwi mates :pac:. . .

zAbbo

And it's starting now

Bokke by 5

copacetic

pretty frantic stuff with no real shape or structure to the game. Have to say imo it is pretty clear that the new rules take more away from the game than they add..

toomevara

This tri-nations is at least showing up the fact that the ELV's dont work. The rugby is pure bubblegum stuff...desperately unsatisfactory to watch...I dont know the number of turnovers from ruck situations yet but it must be astronomical...shocking for a first class fixture..Is there some perceived advantage under the ELV's to not protecting and securing ruck ball?

Its rugby Jim, but not as we know it....

Xavi6

Sell out crowd for the game anyway. Tried to get a last minute ticket but no luck.

zAbbo

Good finish, but it was turn over city in the last 10 minutes.

Lots of pointless kicking, and some strange DG attempts.

copacetic

toomevara wrote: »

This tri-nations is at least showing up the fact that the ELV's dont work. The rugby is pure bubblegum stuff...desperately unsatisfactory to watch...I dont know the number of turnovers from ruck situations yet but it must be astronomical...shocking for a first class fixture..Is there some perceived advantage under the ELV's to not protecting and securing ruck ball?

Its rugby Jim, but not as we know it....

it appears that the you can get away with a lot more when competing for the ball? I thought it was supposed to be a free kick straight away, but the ref let them away with pile of stuff. Possibly no-one is too worried about giving away a free kick so slow everything down, it's not like that wasn't already a problem, reducing the penalty for it seems nuts to me.

Stev_o

zAbbo wrote: »

Good finish, but it was turn over city in the last 10 minutes.

Lots of pointless kicking, and some strange DG attempts.

Awful game though hard to think thats its advertising the ELV's as it just reminds me of the RWC awful awful stuff.

One thing is clear though that to win at the toppest level in international rugby these days you need a true No7 George Smith gave a master class lesson on how operate as one today and that was the difference between the teams.

toomevara

copacetic wrote: »

Possibly no-one is too worried about giving away a free kick so slow everything down, it's not like that wasn't already a problem, reducing the penalty for it seems nuts to me.

Agreed, which fundamentally alters the nature of the contest for the ball, thus fecking about with the essence of rugby union. It's altering the sprit of the game at an essential and basic level, it isn't just a few rule changes...bloody hate it.

NotWormBoy

toomevara wrote: »

Agreed, which fundamentally alters the nature of the contest for the ball, thus fecking about with the essence of rugby union. It's altering the sprit of the game at an essential and basic level, it isn't just a few rule changes...bloody hate it.

After seeing that game - completely structureless, aimless kicking, scrums going down and still playing on, ridiculous number of turnovers - I would completely agree. This is one of the first ELV games I've watched and I really really was not impressed. Shocking game of rugby, am I the only one that actually likes when a team forces a penalty and gets 3 points, instead of just a free kick?

themont85

The ElVs aren't all bad but there is so many crap ones its hard to back the others up. There are portions of the games where the game degenerates into a complete farce, usually begins with a boot down the middle of the pitch as a result of the new 22 rule. The free kick thing is a nightmare, it basically lessons the punishment for cheating. Stevo is right about having a good 7, they are able to do a lot more than before and are an imperative for any team. From my view there is now more free kicks given than there were penalities back before the rules, cos teams can get away with it. The problems in rugby and its flow almost entirely have come down to poor and inconsistant refing, which the IRB are at fault for.

John O'Neil tells us that the ELVs have made the tri nations games all really exciting climaxes, Absolute crap, its only because the teams are so even that there are close finishes. A lot was said about up the jumper rugby and bitching about it, myself included i'll admit at times, but the games so far have been really dissapointing quality wise.