Show the Gardai a letter and you're grand!

Alanstrainor · 09-07-2008 8:27am

Hanley wrote: »

Are you sure about the on the sport fine?

I was pretty sure it could only come after a court date.

:eek:, No court date needed. The fine is a minimum, and can be handed out on the spot.

Snakeblood · 09-07-2008 9:27am

Alanstrainor wrote: »

:eek:, No court date needed. The fine is a minimum, and can be handed out on the spot.

The fine is a maximum of 1000.
http://www.rsa.ie/Home/upload/File/Changes%20to%20the%20Driver%20Licensing%20System%20Effective%2030%20June%202008%20rev.pdf
for each offence, and as it's a penal offence, there has to be a trial.

In Irish and British law the accused men, like all defendants in criminal proceeding, are presumed innocent until proved guilty. The proof must be adduced at the eventual trial, which it is anticipated will take place next year.

In point of fact the presumption of innocence is not particular to Britain and Ireland. The United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights reads:

Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence

Alanstrainor · 09-07-2008 10:01am

Penal Offences are being created for certain breaches of traffic law by learner
drivers. These offences are punishable by a fine of a minimum of €1,000 for a first
offence.

Right you are about the penal offence, apologies.
But i now have 2 RSA documents saying opposites????
Changes to driving licnesing system

Shazbot · 09-07-2008 10:03am

Snakeblood wrote: »

In Irish and British law the accused men, like all defendants in criminal proceeding, are presumed innocent until proved guilty. The proof must be adduced at the eventual trial, which it is anticipated will take place next year.

In point of fact the presumption of innocence is not particular to Britain and Ireland. The United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights reads:

Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence

I would assume that the garda that pulled over an unaccompanied driver would be able to declare them guilty right there and then. What more evidence would you need to issue a fine for driving alone.

If it were to go to trial it would be the garda's word against the driver's. The judge would most likely side with the garda.

So regardless of trial or not, still a big dent in the wallet.

Snakeblood · 09-07-2008 10:07am

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Right you are about the penal offence, apologies.
But i now have 2 RSA documents saying opposites????
Changes to driving licnesing system

Well...

I've checked the page document info, and yours is dated two weeks earlier than mine, so possibly mine is right, because it's revised information. Possibly yours is right because they left two conflicting docs up and don't really know what they're doing.

Honestly, I don't know. I wouldn't bet against them messing it up, and whether it's up to a grand, or a grand or over, I'd say it's still a decent disincentive.

Snakeblood · 09-07-2008 10:09am

Shazbot wrote: »

I would assume that the garda that pulled over an unaccompanied driver would be able to declare them guilty right there and then. What more evidence would you need to issue a fine for driving alone.

If it were to go to trial it would be the garda's word against the driver's. The judge would most likely side with the garda.

So regardless of trial or not, still a big dent in the wallet.

Not for a penal offence, a garda can't. A garda wouldn't need evidence, he needs the right to declare someone guilty. I mean, that's why we have judges, not Judge Dredd.

The judge probably would side against the defendant. I'm pointing out what actually happens, for accuracies sake.

Alanstrainor · 09-07-2008 10:10am

Snakeblood wrote: »

Well...

I've checked the page document info, and yours is dated two weeks earlier than mine, so possibly mine is right, because it's revised information. Possibly yours is right because they left two conflicting docs up and don't really know what they're doing.

Honestly, I don't know. I wouldn't bet against them messing it up, and whether it's up to a grand, or a grand or over, I'd say it's still a decent disincentive.

Just noticed yours was the revised edition now, but this is ridiculous, how is anyone supposed to have a clear idea of what the law is regarding this issue if they themselve keep going back and forth.

wil · 09-07-2008 11:05pm

RSA

Declan Naughton, Acting Chief Executive, RSA.1/7/2008 11:04:25 wrote:

The information provided is for guidance and is not an interpretation of the law.

Q: What is the penalty if a learner driver drives unaccompanied?
A: It is a penal offence and is punishable by a fine not exceeding €1,000 for a first offence.

Declan Naughton, Acting Chief Executive, RSA. 13/6/2008 21:58:29 wrote:

Q: What is the penalty if a learner driver drives unaccompanied?
A: It is a penal offence and is punishable by a fine of a minimum of €1,000.

Good thing he is only acting.

So that would appear to be minimum of €1000 unless it is a first offence, where it is a maximum of €1000

BTW the previous information is still on the Government County Council sites
http://www.wexford.ie/wex/Departments/MotorTax/DrivingLicences/Thefile,6749,en.doc

Gov wrote:

"Penal Offences are being created for certain breaches of traffic law by learner drivers. These offences are punishable by a fine of a minimum of €1,000 for a first offence.

Q: What is the penalty if a learner driver drives unaccompanied?

A: It is a penal offence and is punishable by a fine of a minimum of €1,000
"

I havent located the actual law yet, if someone has a link, save me the bother of looking.
Is it actually written or being made up as they go along?

Or did someone get to them and order a rewrite.

xIsabelx · 10-07-2008 12:20pm

A guy I work with, who is on his second provisional, was stopped the other day at a Garda checkpoint in Greystones. He still has his L Plates up, but he was in the car with his friend who is only on a first provisional. The Garda asked them both for their licences, but said absolutely nothing afterwards and just let them go on. He didn't even give them a warning or make any reference to this new law. Wicklow Gardaí = annoyingly inconsistent with these new rules. :mad:

DRice · 10-07-2008 3:00pm

on a provisional and need the car for lots of reasons and dont know what to do:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Just been away on two weeks hols had a great time and now have to come back to this <SNIP>. There should be a big sign at Dublin airport WELCOME TO HELL:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

JP Liz · 10-07-2008 3:05pm

Laurs_civic wrote: »

cant be true , cause if u go to your test now without a fully licence driver you automaically fail.

Is this true????????

Snakeblood · 10-07-2008 3:11pm

JP Liz wrote: »

Is this true????????

No. It won't make a tester look favourably on you if he knows you don't have someone with you, but he's not allowed fail you on a test for something outside the test.

Hanley · 10-07-2008 3:50pm

JP Liz wrote: »

Is this true????????

No. That person has no idea what they're talking about. If it was true there'd have to be a grade 3 box for arriving unaccompanied. And there isn't.

Besides, who's to say your driver is out taking a walk, or having a cigarette. Or in the canteen of one of the larger centers...

Stark · 10-07-2008 3:54pm

DRice wrote: »

on a provisional and need the car for lots of reasons and dont know what to do:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Just been away on two weeks hols had a great time and now have to come back to this <SNIP>. There should be a big sign at Dublin airport WELCOME TO HELL:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Go to some other country if Ireland's too strict for you. See how you get on with the laws there...

Alanstrainor · 10-07-2008 4:58pm

DRice wrote: »

on a provisional and need the car for lots of reasons and dont know what to do:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Just been away on two weeks hols had a great time and now have to come back to this <SNIP>. There should be a big sign at Dublin airport WELCOME TO HELL:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Consider yourself warned for the swearing.

techdiver · 10-07-2008 5:04pm

prodigal_son wrote: »

It takes 6 to 8 weeks

If you believe that you'll believe anything!

Alanstrainor · 10-07-2008 5:07pm

techdiver wrote: »

If you believe that you'll believe anything!

Numerous posters on this forum have gotten tests well under that time, so i dont see your point.

techdiver · 10-07-2008 5:14pm

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Numerous posters on this forum have gotten tests well under that time, so i dont see your point.

Mine is the 7th of August - 15 week wait.

Girlfriend tomorrow - 16 week wait

2 guys at work - 16 & 17 weeks

All post June 30th when we were promised no more than 10 week waits.

I would have been waiting longer only for I spent days trying to call the RSA to get assigned a date for my test which they hadn't done up to that point.

I'm obeying the law and not driving, but I'm entitled to complain when my end of the bargain is being held up and theirs isn't! Plain and Simple!

To accept it is another indictment of the Irish peoples inability to give a crap about a decent public service.

I think the recession will be good for Ireland, it will put more juice in the tank of discontent and forge a new standard for what we expect.

Boggles · 10-07-2008 5:27pm

techdiver wrote: »

I would have been waiting longer only for I spent days trying to call the RSA to get assigned a date for my test which they hadn't done up to that point.

Sorry Techdiver, did you get any sort of letter before you complained. I know someone who applied online a couple of weeks ago and did't get any sort of correspondance even to say that payment had been recieved and processed and they would be notified of the test.

By the way from people I know I think the 6-8 weeks wait is the exception to the rule and 12+ is more realistic, will only likely increase further with the amount of applicants in the past number of weeks.

Mont · 10-07-2008 5:58pm

Say if you have your L-plates down and tell the Garda that you dont have your Driving Licence with you - what happens then - do u get 2 weeks to drop it in to a cop shop or what?

Also say if you dont drop it in until say 4 weeks time (as i have my test in 3 weeks) with a full driving license what happens then - presume they check the issue date ?

Just curious as i have to drive to Clare this evening from Dublin
and have my plates down

TheNog · 10-07-2008 6:18pm

Mont wrote: »

Say if you have your L-plates down and tell the Garda that you dont have your Driving Licence with you - what happens then - do u get 2 weeks to drop it in to a cop shop or what?

You get 10 days to produce your licence and/or insurance, Not 2 weeks

Mont wrote: »

Also say if you dont drop it in until say 4 weeks time (as i have my test in 3 weeks) with a full driving license what happens then - presume they check the issue date ?

Just curious as i have to drive to Clare this evening from Dublin
and have my plates down

You will be summonsed to court for failing to produce your licence, driving while unaccompanied, driving without a licence and driving without L plates. If you are prosecuted for all four summons the fines could be a maximum of €3000.

My advice to you is dont drive unaccompanied at all. Get a bus or get a friend who has a licence to accompany you. By the way your passenger can also be demanded to produce their licence within 10 days also so they cannot say I have a full licence but forgot to bring it with me.

wil · 10-07-2008 10:06pm

DRice wrote: »

There should be a big sign at Dublin airport WELCOME TO HELL:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Yes the weather has been a bit rubbish lately.

Still, at least learning to drive is something you can do outdoors without getting wet.
I assume you didnt try to rent a car while on holiday.

You realise Ireland is currently the only place you can get to drive, accompanied or not.
You have a very mild view of hell.

wil · 10-07-2008 10:21pm

Boggles wrote: »

By the way from people I know I think the 6-8 weeks wait is the exception to the rule and 12+ is more realistic, will only likely increase further with the amount of applicants in the past number of weeks.

I beg to differ. 2 of my cousins passed in the last few weeks after reapplying after failing a month previous (proof it is easier that usual) and 2 neighbours got 2 tests each in the last 2 months (failed all, not surprised).

Testers have even been using hotel rooms as offices down the country as they lay on extra tests.
Maybe they should try a few different centres, perhaps theirs is overburdened with so many last minute applicants they just cant cope even with extra testers laid on, hardly the fault of the testers.

Where lies the responsibility of the applicants when they were made aware of this 9 months ago.

<Fingers in ears> Queue long incomprehensible rant.

Boggles · 10-07-2008 11:27pm

wil wrote: »

Maybe you should try a few different centres, perhaps yours is overburdened with so many last minute applicants they just cant cope even with extra testers laid on, hardly the fault of the testers.

What are you talking about, I passed my test 9 years ago.

wil · 10-07-2008 11:39pm

Boggles wrote: »

What are you talking about, I passed my test 9 years ago.

Congratulations. I should have known that.

Errata
for "you" read "they"
for "yours" read "theirs"

Meathlass · 11-07-2008 10:42am

From reading papers, listening to radio etc. I was led to believe that the 8 week wait for your test was only for those on a second provisonal licence, so that may explain why other people are taking much longer. The new law only affects people on their 2nd provisonal licence. Everyone else has been breaking the law the whole time so they can hardly complain now if they haven't organised their test before now.

Wishbone Ash · 13-07-2008 2:04am

Mont wrote: »

- what happens then - do u get 2 weeks to drop it in to a cop shop or what?

Also say if you dont drop it in until say 4 weeks time (as i have my test in 3 weeks) with a full driving license what happens then - presume they check the issue date ?

Regardless of when you 'produce' (usually within 10 days) the licence/tax/insurance/NCT will be checked against the date in which the checkpoint took place.

It's irrelevant if you pass a test in the meantime as the Garda will be required to check what licence you held for the date in question.

xIsabelx · 13-07-2008 3:44pm

I was driving through Bray last night and all of a sudden I heard Garda sirens blaring and as I looked over my shoulder, I saw a Garda car speed up right beside me and yer man just stared me out of it totally. I was like "Oh f*ck, I'm done." But then he just turned and went up the Dargle rd. instead. Phew!! :pac:

Then when I was on my way home, I passed another Garda car going the opposite direction and they didn't do anything. I'm hoping that the only time I'll be stuck will be if there is a checkpoint around somewhere.

Hanley · 13-07-2008 5:05pm

xIsabelx wrote: »

I was driving through Bray last night and all of a sudden I heard Garda sirens blaring and as I looked over my shoulder, I saw a Garda car speed up right beside me and yer man just stared me out of it totally. I was like "Oh f*ck, I'm done." But then he just turned and went up the Dargle rd. instead. Phew!! :pac:

Then when I was on my way home, I passed another Garda car going the opposite direction and they didn't do anything. I'm hoping that the only time I'll be stuck will be if there is a checkpoint around somewhere.

Haha that's nasty. I got stuck behind a garda car last Friday on my way to work and I was absolutely BRICKING it.

Then today I was working at the memorial day celebrations and since I was starting early there was no option but to drive up. Of course there were guards EVERYWHERE. At the main gates.... directing... etc etc. Most of driven past 30 of them an no more than 10kph. THAT was nerve-wracking.

DRice · 14-07-2008 3:11am

Hanley wrote: »

Haha that's nasty. I got stuck behind a garda car last Friday on my way to work and I was absolutely BRICKING it.

Then today I was working at the memorial day celebrations and since I was starting early there was no option but to drive up. Of course there were guards EVERYWHERE. At the main gates.... directing... etc etc. Most of driven past 30 of them an no more than 10kph. THAT was nerve-wracking.

did you have plates up?

Show the Gardai a letter and you're grand!

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