Automatic 'towed' - What damage to expect?

BeardyGit

A work colleagues car ran out of petrol just off the M50/N11 on Wednesday. He walked the few hundred meters to work. When he went back to get it going with a gerrycan at lunchtime, the car had been 'towed' using a winch onto a tilt and slide flatbed truck. This was at the request of the Gardaí apparently, as it was reported to be causing an obstruction by a local resident.

The car is a Vauxhall Omega Auto, and was in 'P' and had the handbrake applied fully. When the owner went to the depot in Kilmacanogue to collect it, he found the front wheels completely out of alignment. Obviously, someone had applied a fair bit of force a steering component - most likely pulling from the front I'd guess. Incredibly, when they went to investigate the complaint, they used a forklift truck to pick the car up so they could look underneath, and then had the utter cheek to say "don't worry, we do that with new cars all the time"! No doubt it was removed from the flatbed in the same manner when it arrived in the yard - Perhaps this was when the steering damage was caused. They also didn't use rubber blocks to effectively jack the car on the forks....

After complaining to the owner of this well known recovery company, the owner of the vehicle has managed to have the car brought to an independent mechanic to have the steering repaired. Apparently it needs new trackrod ends, or perhaps something similar....

I reckon there could easily be more problems to come as a result of this car being dragged onto the back of the truck. I know it was dragged as the recovery company driver admitted this when they were asked if the car was lifted onto the truck or not. It also wasn't towed behind the truck as it was in gear with the handbrake on.....idiots.

What else should the owner be on the lookout for as a result of this gross incompetence? Bearing in mind the vehicle was brought to the garage nominated by the recovery company to do the repairs, I'd like him to have some idea what else might need to be checked. I'm flabbergasted..... Has anyone else had similar experience with this recovery company - You'll know who I'm talking about I'm sure?

Esel

Sounds nasty. No advice, but a free bump....

galwaytt

Theortically, his gearbox/torque convertor could be fubar'd...........you cannot tow/drag autos - full stop.

Pataman

Slightly off topic, If you happened to be there at the time, can it be put in neutral, then towed?

Esel

^ No. Towing in neutral, if the driving wheels are on the road, can still damage the gearbox. Distance and speed of tow are important factors - i.e. short distance low-speed tow will probably be OK. See owner's manual for details.

homer90

Gil_Dub wrote: »

What else should the owner be on the lookout for

Fuel Guage ............

Henry Ford III

Driven wheels must be lifted off the ground when towing. If not drivetrain damage may ensue.

RobbieMc

In the states, recovery companies use a special dolly for the rear of a 4X4 to have the wheels off the ground when towing.
At least in the states nearly all vehicles are automatic, so they are "expert" in recovery.
Over here, recovery jocks are there to just "recover", by any means they can.

I've seen some horrors when it comes to recovery, they would make your OIL boil.

ronnie3585

Excuse my ignorance gents but could someone explain exactly how towing an automatic car damages the drivetrain, thanks.

vibe666

even in neutral a carwith an automatic gearbox is never truly in neutral like a manual car is, they're just designed differently because of the way they work.

per manufacturers advice, towing will either be "not at all" or "only at low speeds for short distances". anything from 30mph for no more than 30 miles to 50mph for 50 miles depending on what exactly you're towing.

the only safe way is to tow it with the driven wheels raised off the ground and stationary, i.e. the front wheels up if it's front wheels drive and the back wheels off the ground if it's rear wheel drive (with the steering locked straight, obviously).

Darragh29

At a low speed for example just pulling the car onto a flatbed, you would be unlucky for any damage to occur, I'd say he will be ok. For damage to occur, fluid pressure would have to build up in the transmission, this doesn't happen at low speeds, so I'd say he'll be grand...

Darragh29

BTW, you can tow an automatic but just not with the driven wheels on the ground.

luckyD

homer90 wrote: »

Fuel Guage ............

:pac::):pac::D:) problem solved!

Wishbone Ash

Gil_Dub wrote: »

A work colleagues car ran out of petrol just off the M50/N11 on Wednesday. He walked the few hundred meters to work. When he went back to get it going with a gerrycan at lunchtime

You work colleague was very irresponsible for leaving a vehicle on a busy road and heading to work. Why didn't he call the Gardai immediately and wait at the car for a tow truck to arrive or, if he didn't have a telephone, he could have called from work and returned immediately to the scene.

galwaytt

Darragh29 wrote: »

At a low speed for example just pulling the car onto a flatbed, you would be unlucky for any damage to occur, I'd say he will be ok. For damage to occur, fluid pressure would have to build up in the transmission, this doesn't happen at low speeds, so I'd say he'll be grand...

Yes, but in Park, with Handbrake on ?? The gearbox is mechanically locked, and the wheels are locked, so how did get up the flatbed? Kicking and screaming ??

Darragh29

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You work colleague was very irresponsible for leaving a vehicle on a busy road and heading to work. Why didn't he call the Gardai immediately and wait at the car for a tow truck to arrive or, if he didn't have a telephone, he could have called from work and returned immediately to the scene.

Whether he was in the car or outside it or a mile away from it, the car still represents the same fairly neglible risk to other careful road users.

If the handbrake was on then the car was dragged up onto the flatbed with no possible damage to automatic transmission. No big deal, it'll very most likely be fine...

Tony Broke

Darragh29 wrote: »

No big deal, it'll very most likely be fine...

How do you figure that?

Darragh29

Tony Broke wrote: »

How do you figure that?

Sorry, thought it was a RWD Merc. Either way, it will probably be fine as per my previous post regarding hydraulic pressure not building up to cause transmission seal damage... The car probably hardly moved 10 feet!

VH

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You work colleague was very irresponsible for leaving a vehicle on a busy road and heading to work. Why didn't he call the Gardai immediately and wait at the car for a tow truck to arrive or, if he didn't have a telephone, he could have called from work and returned immediately to the scene.

fcuk me - this must be a p1sstake surely? or are the high horses working overtime?

no - looks like a p1sstake/troll

Darragh29

VH wrote: »

fcuk me - this must be a p1sstake surely? or are the high horses working overtime?

no - looks like a p1sstake/troll

Unfortunately no, not a piss take...

vibe666

Darragh29 wrote: »

At a low speed for example just pulling the car onto a flatbed, you would be unlucky for any damage to occur, I'd say he will be ok. For damage to occur, fluid pressure would have to build up in the transmission, this doesn't happen at low speeds, so I'd say he'll be grand...

you don't appear to have read the OP's question.

The car was in 'park' and was dragged with all 4 wheels locked stationary along the road and onto the back of a flat bed truck and he has already had it confirmed that it has caused some damage to the steering as quoted by a garage it was taken to.

Additionally, it is quite reasonable to expect further damage t the auto box as result of this.

quite how that can be classed as 'grand' I'm not entirely sure. :rolleyes:

Darragh29

vibe666 wrote: »

you don't appear to have read the OP's question.

The car was in 'park' and was dragged with all 4 wheels locked stationary along the road and onto the back of a flat bed truck and he has already had it confirmed that it has caused some damage to the steering as quoted by a garage it was taken to.

Additionally, it is quite reasonable to expect further damage t the auto box as result of this.

quite how that can be classed as 'grand' I'm not entirely sure. :rolleyes:

Here we go, the reason their is alleged damage to the track rod ends was most likely because the car was taken off the truck using a forklift! I've seen several cars, including automatics, dragged up onto recovery trucks and no damage done.

I think I've said this three times now but I'll say it again. The car hasn't effectively been towed, it was dragged 10 feet. I don't think this will cause transmission damage, I imagine that there will be no damage because I think the car would have to be towed at speed for hydraulic pressure to build up and start damaging seals. At very low speeds, small volumes of hydraulic fluid can get past the seals without causing damage.

The only way the OP will know whether or not there is transmission damage is to start the car and see if it will drive. I'd be more inclined to wait for a problem to emerge than to be pursuing the very worst case scenario. That's one of the rules of thumb, if it ain't broke, leave it alone!

vibe666

you don't see to understand the difference between being towed and being dragged.

you're right that towing an automatic at low speed isn't likely to build up enough pessure to do the transmission any damage but there's no way of knowing what damage might be caused by the pressure on the gearbox of the dragging motion trying to force the wheels to turn when it's in park.

And how exactly is lifting up a car with a forklift supposed to damage track rod ends?

Darragh29

vibe666 wrote: »

you don't see to understand the difference between being towed and being dragged.

you're right that towing an automatic at low speed isn't likely to build up enough pessure to do the transmission any damage but there's no way of knowing what damage might be caused by the pressure on the gearbox of the dragging motion trying to force the wheels to turn when it's in park.

And how exactly is lifting up a car with a forklift supposed to damage track rod ends?

By bending the track rod arms if they come into contact with the fork on the forklift or also by possibly causing them to come apart when the vehicle is being vertically dropped on the ground by the forklift. This could realistically only happen if there was alreaady track rod end wear present. It is hard to see how two track rod ends can be dislocated by dragging a vehicle a few feet onto a flatbed truck.

There is a way to know what damage has been done, start the car and see if it will drive, simple! Either way, if damage is done, damage is done, if it isn't, it isn't, how on earth is anyone here going to know???

vibe666

How big exactly is this forklift supposed to be to get anywhere near enough to the wheel arch on an Omega to damage the track rod ends? :rolleyes:

forklifts are designed specifically with a steady up and down movement in mind for safely moving palettes around, not throwing them. it's HIGHLY unlikely that the kind of movements a forklift would perform would stress anything (other than improper lifting points under the car) beyond normal operating tolerances.

and claiming that it's not possible for it to have either it's track rod ends or transmission damaged by forcefully dragging it along the ground shows an astounding lack of even basic mechanical knowledge.

The icing on the cake though is suggesting 'giving it a go' as an effective means of diagnosing possible problems.

you really will have to let us know where the garage is where you work so we know to avoid it like the plague. :rolleyes: [/sarcasm]

this might be a hard thing for you to take in, but the best way of finding out if you have serious mechanical problems with a car is to have a professional look at it for you, NOT to 'give it a go' and make any possible problems worse by using the vehicle 'just to see'.

"Oh, I think I might have broken my leg. I know I'll just run up and down just to make sure". :rolleyes:

Darragh29

vibe666 wrote: »

How big exactly is this forklift supposed to be to get anywhere near enough to the wheel arch on an Omega to damage the track rod ends? :rolleyes:

forklifts are designed specifically with a steady up and down movement in mind for safely moving palettes around, not throwing them. it's HIGHLY unlikely that the kind of movements a forklift would perform would stress anything (other than improper lifting points under the car) beyond normal operating tolerances.

and claiming that it's not possible for it to have either it's track rod ends or transmission damaged by forcefully dragging it along the ground shows an astounding lack of even basic mechanical knowledge.

The icing on the cake though is suggesting 'giving it a go' as an effective means of diagnosing possible problems.

you really will have to let us know where the garage is where you work so we know to avoid it like the plague. :rolleyes: [/sarcasm]

this might be a hard thing for you to take in, but the best way of finding out if you have serious mechanical problems with a car is to have a professional look at it for you, NOT to 'give it a go' and make any possible problems worse by using the vehicle 'just to see'.

"Oh, I think I might have broken my leg. I know I'll just run up and down just to make sure". :rolleyes:

I'll keep this simple for you as you're obviously more interested in trolling and going down the personal abuse road than you are in discussing anything here.

Only a few weeks ago I had a mechanic who worked for me buy a car that there was no key for, it had been lost, usual set up, handbrake on. The car was being stored in my garage and came in on the back of a recovery truck. The mechanic who bought the car had to drag it off the truck, no problem, no track rod end damage, simply, NO PROBLEM!

Is there any evidence whatsoever that this car has a suffered transmission damage????

No, there isn't. What your effectively suggesting, in the absence of any other useful contribution that you've yet to make here, is that the transmission is taken out of the car and stripped down to check for damage. Then if everything is working, put it back together again and happy days???
Sure we'll just spend a couple of grand checking that out and if it's all well, then fine, there might not have been a problem at all but our customer is happy enough to pay around 2K to be assured of that!?!

Or we could use our heads here and just check if there is any evidence of damage by seeing if the car is driving normally, which is all ANY garage is going to do in order to diagnose a possible problem in the first instance.

You need to stop pretending you know what you're talking about and stop imagining that when an automatic car is towed when it shouldn't be, that there is some cheat sheet or some special little known procedure for undoing that damage before the vehicle is driven again and undoing the damage that has already been done and thereby avoiding an expensive repair.

If hydraulic seals are gone in in an automatic gearbox, the damage is done. End of story. This will be the case whether the vehicle subsequently is driven or not.

MercMad

I agree with Darragh29. This type of dragging, and I dont condone it, is not going to harm the auto box, although it would be possible to damage the "Park" lockout solenoid.

Basically when the 'box is put in "P" a solenoid slots into a rack. It would be possible to break this, or damage the rack but you would notice, since "P" wont work anymore ! This usually only happens if you slam it into "P" whilst still on the move !

If the car was dragged with the selector in "P" and the h-brake on, then its unlikely to have damaged anything. It was obviously a ham-fisted operator who most likely damaged the steering by using a tie rod to hook up to instead of the wishbone or chassis member.

Using a forklift on a vehicle, without rubber blocks is just pure animal !

I would check for floor damage too, and damage to fuel lines, pipes and clips

vibe666

your arguments just don't make any sense. repeating them n an attempt to make them right isn't going to cut it.

you are stating as fact that there is no damage when you have no idea whether there is or not, based solely on your own assumptions of watching someone do something similar when none of us have any idea of what damage may or may not have been caused.

someone has damaged yer mans car and he's gotten them to take it to a garage, personally I'd be demanding that it's checked over properly rather than just giving it a go and keeping my fingers crossed. there's already one confirmed fault as a result (in some way or another) and quite possibly other things as well.

I'm sure you'd rather him find out while he's test driving it along a motorway at 60-70mph but personally, considering it's already at a garage I'd rather make sure it gets looked at properly before anyone drives it to make sure everything is kosher.

apologies for anything you see as a personal attack, I just have a very low tolerance for bull$hit.

Darragh29

vibe666 wrote: »

your arguments just don't make any sense. repeating them n an attempt to make them right isn't going to cut it.

you are stating as fact that there is no damage when you have no idea whether there is or not, based solely on your own assumptions of watching someone do something similar when none of us have any idea of what damage may or may not have been caused.

someone has damaged yer mans car and he's gotten them to take it to a garage, personally I'd be demanding that it's checked over properly rather than just giving it a go and keeping my fingers crossed. there's already one confirmed fault as a result (in some way or another) and quite possibly other things as well.

I'm sure you'd rather him find out while he's test driving it along a motorway at 60-70mph but personally, considering it's already at a garage I'd rather make sure it gets looked at properly before anyone drives it to make sure everything is kosher.

apologies for anything you see as a personal attack, I just have a very low tolerance for bull$hit.

Grand, you can't "check over" an automatic transmission without test driving the car so come back when you know what you are talking about.

BeardyGit

Neither of you are actually contributing anything with the pissing contest.

Darragh29, sorry to say this but you're just coming across an ill-educated back yard mechanic with your replies on this thread. Now, now. I'm not having a go - You're normally spot on, but you're missing the point on this thread.

Vibe666 has picked up on the need for a little care and caution in how the matter should have been handled. Instead of arrogant know it all type responses from the mechanic, a clear demonstration of understanding and care was what the owner needed, given the fact his car had been damaged through inappropriate rough-housing in the first place.

Now, aside from that, you'll note that I never suggested the feckin' tranmission should be pulled apart, so quit with the exageration Darragh. What I actually asked was what else he should have them watch out for....

MercMad's the only one who's actually bothered giving useful advice in his reply, without the hype and chest-puffing rubbish:

I take from his response that the owner should have had them check the "Park" lockout solenoid, floor pan, fuel and brake lines and associated clips.

Useful.

In any case, the car's been repaired. It needed new trackrods, trackrod ends and a steering rack as the original developed a terminal leak after its trauma.

I could clearly see the marks on the underside of the sills from where it was lifted by the forklift. If it were my car, I'd have hammered the recovery company for that bit alone.....

Gil

richardsheil

Gil_Dub wrote: »

Useful.

In any case, the car's been repaired. It needed new trackrods, trackrod ends and a steering rack as the original developed a terminal leak after its trauma.

I could clearly see the marks on the underside of the sills from where it was lifted by the forklift. If it were my car, I'd have hammered the recovery company for that bit alone.....

Gil

Thus proving Darragh to be correct. No damage to gearbox.
as he stated.

Top marks for Darragh for using his cop on.

Richard