Something sporty

--amadeus--

superjosh9 wrote: »

i'm sorry about this - but i really question the technical awareness - and indeed the age of some of the posters on this when they actually recommend a lotus...And then what have you?! A lotus?! You would need to be an enthusiast to operate something like that everyday. Maybe you are though, I don't know!
...
Honda s2000 would be 10 times the car. Honda don't operate on a shoe-string for a start
....
Don't buy a Lotus though..

Have you been within 20 feet of a Lotus?

As it happens I don't have an Elise - I need 4 seats - but that is illeducated scaremongering. I run a 40 year old Elan+2 as an everyday car. I do cross country runs and short commutes, pick up and drop off kids and go to the shops. It's docile and easy in traffic and mental and fun on the twisties. Yes it's a bit more work that a Corolla but it's a huge amount more rewarding. Anyone with an ounce of mechanical sympathy can easily maintain the average Lotus and they are genuine "drivers cars".

What on earth do you mean - "And then what have you - a Lotus". Lotus has a marque history that is second only to the likes of Ferrari and Porsche - multiple F1 championships and some of teh most desirable cars ever made.

The S2000 may be a tidy and reliable car with an amazing engine but it'll never be a Lotus.

peasant

warning for climate expert ...that's uncalled for

RobAMerc

superjosh9 wrote: »

And then what have you?! A lotus?!

I would rather have a Lotus than a Honda any day of the week.

superjosh9 wrote: »

Honda s2000 would be 10 times the car. Honda don't operate on a shoe-string for a start.

This is silly tripe - Is it because its Japanese that you think the Honda is better than the Elise ?

superjosh9

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Have you been within 20 feet of a Lotus?

As it happens I don't have an Elise - I need 4 seats - but that is illeducated scaremongering. I run a 40 year old Elan+2 as an everyday car. I do cross country runs and short commutes, pick up and drop off kids and go to the shops. It's docile and easy in traffic and mental and fun on the twisties. Yes it's a bit more work that a Corolla but it's a huge amount more rewarding. Anyone with an ounce of mechanical sympathy can easily maintain the average Lotus and they are genuine "drivers cars".

What on earth do you mean - "And then what have you - a Lotus". Lotus has a marque history that is second only to the likes of Ferrari and Porsche - multiple F1 championships and some of teh most desirable cars ever made.

The S2000 may be a tidy and reliable car with an amazing engine but it'll never be a Lotus.

yeh, I've come across one or two, as such - scare-mongering: guilty. ill-educated? not guilty.

different for you as you are clearly an enthusiast. would be like me recommending an old alfa - irrational. each to their own I suppose. Reckon I've seen your old elan about - stands out these days

superjosh9

RobAMerc wrote: »

I would rather have a Lotus than a Honda any day of the week.




This is silly tripe - Is it because its Japanese that you think the Honda is better than the Elise ?

oh brother, well i'm off

walshy123

colour is a bit mad but.... http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/Opel/Speedster/car/1062938/

i bet the insurance will be less that the elise.

im with allianz through glennons in dublin, first year on my own and its just over 1k fully comp

smash

superjosh9 wrote: »

i'm sorry about this - but i really question the technical awareness - and indeed the age of some of the posters on this when they actually recommend a lotus.

k-series engine is a p.o.s btw...

toyota engine is i'm sure great - but you're spending money.

And then what have you?! A lotus?! You would need to be an enthusiast to operate something like that everyday. Maybe you are though, I don't know!

Honda s2000 would be 10 times the car. Honda don't operate on a shoe-string for a start.

I'd steer well clear of the RX8 for the reasons people have said - and the impending lack of any resale value.

Anyway - best of luck! Don't buy a Lotus though..

you're clueless....

I've driven elise's before and I know a lot of elise and exige owners - most of them use the car as a daily driver!

superjosh9

steve06 wrote: »

you're clueless....

i am not clueless

Ferris

steve06 wrote: »

you're clueless....

I've driven elise's before and I know a lot of elise and exige owners - most of them use the car as a daily driver!

I know two people who've owned S1 elises, both engines needed the head gasket done, one of the cars actually had it done twice. The other also needed a gearbox rebuild.

I'm not Lotus bashing, I defo wouldn't turn down a 111r or a post '04 one, because they're the ones with toyota engines. There is a reason the toyota engined ones are more expensive to buy 2nd hand.

smash

superjosh9 wrote: »

i am not clueless

ok, so where does your knowledge of the elise come from?

cpoh1

steve06 wrote: »

ok, so where does your knowledge of the elise come from?

Its pretty common knowledge that the old rover k series engines are serious dogs. It doesnt matter what heritage it has most lotus up until very recently had "questionable" reliability.

The elise (S2) is a fantastic car but as a daily driver takes serious dedication. Fair play to anyone who uses theirs as one and does anything near 10k miles a year in it because they are not comfortable to drive long distance.

smash

yes but the elise being an enthusiast car is usually well maintained by the owner and looked after well, with problems fixed quickly and parts upgraded.

If you do some research from owners clubs then you'll find a great car no problem.

superjosh9

steve06 wrote: »

yes but the elise being an enthusiast car is usually well maintained by the owner and looked after well, with problems fixed quickly and parts upgraded.

If you do some research from owners clubs then you'll find a great car no problem.

now - why don't you read my original post again.

+1 on what ferris and cpoh said. I'd take a toyota-engined one, but new only.

AFE

In like the way most of the posters on here have never been near an Elise but are experts on how bad the K series is. It is in fact a brilliant engine, innovative, light weight, very, very, fuel efficient, high revving and can be tracked without mercy. The current highest mileage one has over 220,000 miles on the clock.

The K series has one weakness in that about 40% blow the head gasket. Normally there are several warning signs that this is in the process of happening so most people catch it in time. Once fixed and fixed right it should never happen again. Due to the trend for engine swaps K series engines are incredibly cheap on the used market, from free with low miles & history to about £500 for one with upgrades.

Buy one with the head already done and you have a great car for very little money.

One other factor is deprecation. I bought mine for £8400, drove it for 15,000 miles and got back £8400. A year later the same car is still worth about £8400. Deprecation proof motoring, how many cars on your list are like that? How many head gaskets could be done for just one years deprecation on an RX8?

Are Elise’s hard to sell? I sold mine to the first caller for the full money and the next guy to phone fell out with me because it was sold so fast, he was on the way with cash and had to turn back.

Great car, perhaps try out the Lotus section on www.octane.ie for some facts rather than fiction about Elise’s from people that own rather than speculate about them.

Gumbo

good choice of cars, but the Honda S2000 would be my choice every time.

Ferris

The guy I know has spent 6k on his fixing it in Linders, and its still buggered. Thats not cheap motoring.

Oh and it was outside my house last week, I drove in it and it was sounding like a bucket of bolts.

Great car with a toyota engine, 40% failure rate on the K-series, I'd rather not take the risk. That engine in an Elise was a flawed design, pure and simple.

cpoh1

AFE wrote: »

In like the way most of the posters on here have never been near an Elise but are experts on how bad the K series is. It is in fact a brilliant engine, innovative, light weight, very, very, fuel efficient, high revving and can be tracked without mercy. The current highest mileage one has over 220,000 miles on the clock.

The K series has one weakness in that about 40% blow the head gasket. Normally there are several warning signs that this is in the process of happening so most people catch it in time. Once fixed and fixed right it should never happen again. Due to the trend for engine swaps K series engines are incredibly cheap on the used market, from free with low miles & history to about £500 for one with upgrades.

Buy one with the head already done and you have a great car for very little money.

One other factor is deprecation. I bought mine for £8400, drove it for 15,000 miles and got back £8400. A year later the same car is still worth about £8400. Deprecation proof motoring, how many cars on your list are like that? How many head gaskets could be done for just one years deprecation on an RX8?

Are Elise’s hard to sell? I sold mine to the first caller for the full money and the next guy to phone fell out with me because it was sold so fast, he was on the way with cash and had to turn back.

Great car, perhaps try out the Lotus section on www.octane.ie for some facts rather than fiction about Elise’s from people that own rather than speculate about them.

The only thing people are critisicing the elise for is its rover engine, the problems here aren't fiction. 40% failure rate on a mass produced engine is appalling, i may never have come across an elise with a k series but ive crossed paths with loads of rover 620ti's etc. and their owners have no hair left after dealing with them. Most end up parting out the car because their worthless with a blown engine, I got my crx brakes off once such guy a few years back.

--amadeus--

Link to the 40% failure rate?

The K Series engine has a know issue with the head gasket and (according to the Wiki) "most unmodified K-Series engines are expected to suffer head-gasket failure at around 90,000 miles."

The key word is unmodified - some simple work will reduce the potential for failure very dramatically. For anyone who is serious about buying a K Series engined car this is a great read.

Speaking personally I think it's a mistake to compare the owner experince of a car like the Rover 620 to an Elise. They are owned (and maintained) by very different types of people and the issues with the engine are so well known that any enthusiast owner will have had teh mods done already. If you are serious about an Elise then either buy a modified car and drive with a clear mind or use the unmodified state of the car to drive the price down and do it after purchase.

cpoh1

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Link to the 40% failure rate?

The K Series engine has a know issue with the head gasket and (according to the Wiki) "most unmodified K-Series engines are expected to suffer head-gasket failure at around 90,000 miles."

The key word is unmodified - some simple work will reduce the potential for failure very dramatically. For anyone who is serious about buying a K Series engined car this is a great read.

Speaking personally I think it's a mistake to compare the owner experince of a car like the Rover 620 to an Elise. They are owned (and maintained) by very different types of people and the issues with the engine are so well known that any enthusiast owner will have had teh mods done already. If you are serious about an Elise then either buy a modified car and drive with a clear mind or use the unmodified state of the car to drive the price down and do it after purchase.

Which brings us full circle to the original point. As a daily runaround driven by a person with little technical knowledge who simply wants a performance car without the hassle the s1 elise is not a good option. Are we all agreed on that? Not everyone is interested in having their head under the bonnet every weekend playing with cars (I know I would though ) and having an engine as tempermental as the k is not ideal for mr joe soap.

Anyone interested in an elise would be much better off going post 2005 for the toyota engined car, doesnt it have a beams engine in it?

Ferris

cpoh1 wrote: »

Which brings us full circle to the original point. As a daily runaround driven by a person with little technical knowledge who simply wants a performance car without the hassle the s1 elise is not a good option. Are we all agreed on that? Not everyone is interested in having their head under the bonnet every weekend playing with cars (I know I would though ) and having an engine as tempermental as the k is not ideal for mr joe soap.

Anyone interested in an elise would be much better off going post 2005 for the toyota engined car, doesnt it have a beams engine in it?

+1

The mods include double thickness headgaskets, different headbolts, ported waterways in the head, uprated waterpump and a different thermostat. Couple this to the inevitable machining that will need to be done to the head. Joe Soap cannot be expected to know all this just for his car to be moderately reliable. Also now that the only Dublin dealership for Lotus has been withdrawn that leaves the cars with no qualified support (unless there is another Lotus specialist in Dublin).

--amadeus--

We'll have to agree to differ then

From my perspective once the mods are done it can be forgotten about, there's no need to be under the bonnet every weekend at all. And the OP mentioned an RX8, VX220 / Speedster or an Elise. At his budget I think the Toyota engined cars are out of his reach (unless he takes a chance on an insurance stolen / recovered job from the UK, which is not reccomended).

The RX8 is very thirsty, personally I think the VX220 is pig ugly (and it's just an Opel! :P ). He mentioned the S2000 as an afterthought and - again personally - it's not a car that appeals to me, no reason I just don't like it.

Which leaves teh Elise - stylish, quick, fun. Very different. And it's a Lotus, how cool is that! Of his list and with his criteria it's the one I'd buy.

Ferris

You're reasoning is sound, so long as the OP realises that a k-series engined car is probably going to need mods and work doing to it. Like I said the guy I know hates his car now and thats an awful place to be.

Personally I think that the Opel Speedster is the best car suggested if you're after a small roadster as the engine is pretty bulletproof. I like the S2000 but they've started to become popular with the 'wrong' sort in my view so I wouldn't buy one personally.

bp_me

Ferris wrote: »

If you get an elise make sure it has the toyota engine, the K-series rover is a nightmare. Two people I know have had them with the rover engine and both blew head gaskets and one wrecked its gearbox.

The Toyota engined ones arent much better.

They have an alarming habit of chewing 3rd gear. I guarantee this is more expensive to put right than replacing an entire K series gearbox.

Then consider the engine, it has one major weakness. It costs about 2 euro in basic maintenance every 20k miles or so yet its not on any service scheudle I am aware of. This despite the part being on its 3rd design revision! If (when?) the lift bolt breaks you might get lucky and its an easy extraction. If you are unlucky then the shaft will have rotated (not the camshaft) and its a 8hr + main dealer job. Of course there are oil pick up problems too so if you drive it too hard with low oil that could very easily see the end of your (very expensive) toyota engine. Bear in mind that by design 2zz consumes a little oil all the time.

Servicing costs are considerably higher too. A simple oil change will see you pushing the 80euro mark, and thats it you do it yourself. Spark plugs are 60 euro.

As already said, the K series isnt that big an issue once you treat it right. And even if it does go wrong, its fairly cheap to get work done and not all that complicated.

Ferris

bp_me wrote: »

The Toyota engined ones arent much better.

They have an alarming habit of chewing 3rd gear. I guarantee this is more expensive to put right than replacing an entire K series gearbox.

Then consider the engine, it has one major weakness. It costs about 2 euro in basic maintenance every 20k miles or so yet its not on any service scheudle I am aware of. This despite the part being on its 3rd design revision! If (when?) the lift bolt breaks you might get lucky and its an easy extraction. If you are unlucky then the shaft will have rotated (not the camshaft) and its a 8hr + main dealer job. Of course there are oil pick up problems too so if you drive it too hard with low oil that could very easily see the end of your (very expensive) toyota engine. Bear in mind that by design 2zz consumes a little oil all the time.

Servicing costs are considerably higher too. A simple oil change will see you pushing the 80euro mark, and thats it you do it yourself. Spark plugs are 60 euro.

As already said, the K series isnt that big an issue once you treat it right. And even if it does go wrong, its fairly cheap to get work done and not all that complicated.

I wasn't aware that the Toyota engines had so many problems in the Elise. As we have said to treat the K-series right you'd have to have a decent knowledge of engine and how to spot warning signs. Not everyone has this knowledge so really what you're saying is that a novice should steer well clear of an Elise full stop!

Like I said, i'd prefer an Opel Speedster or VX220

bp_me

The gearbox thing seems to be unique to lotus cars. I don't really get why but assume it's to do with the Loti being far more likely to see track time than any toyotas with the same engine/box combination.

I don't see a problem with anyone owning a Lotus or any other enthuasist/performance cars once they understand that the cars need a bit more TLC than, say, a carina....

AFE

Paying €125 an hour is a sure way to burn money. Tell him to give me a shout with such a simple car and engine they are easy to fix.

I now have the Toyota engine, I don't agree. A £500 fix on a car originally retailing at £20,000 plus is not a major factor. How many cars greatest weakness cost only £500 to fix for good.

Ferris

AFE wrote: »

Paying €125 an hour is a sure way to burn money. Tell him to give me a shout with such a simple car and engine they are easy to fix.

True and it applies to any main dealer to be fair. Just shows you what happens when a joe soaps buys such a car, they gets ripped.

AFE wrote: »

I now have the Toyota engine, I don't agree. A £500 fix on a car originally retailing at £20,000 plus is not a major factor. How many cars greatest weakness cost only £500 to fix for good.

If you don't catch the problem, or are ignorant to it then the job is going to cost a lot more, again not for the novice.

bp_me wrote: »

The gearbox thing seems to be unique to lotus cars. I don't really get why but assume it's to do with the Loti being far more likely to see track time than any toyotas with the same engine/box combination.

I don't see a problem with anyone owning a Lotus or any other enthuasist/performance cars once they understand that the cars need a bit more TLC than, say, a carina....

Couldn't agree more, but the OP is a novice. He's more concerned about insurance costs and not by the potentially far greater cost of maintaining the car.

bp_me

Ferris wrote: »

Couldn't agree more, but the OP is a novice. He's more concerned about insurance costs and not by the potentially far greater cost of maintaining the car.

None of the OPs choices are any worse than the other. They will all have their own interesting and unique issues. This is part and parcel of owning interesting cars.

For the OPs budget he would be looking at a S1 elise. Could get a very well sorted one for that kind of money. Remember though, this wont have ABS so you can't brake like the Volvo does. It probably stops better, but not without some degree of skill.

Only the earliest (and possibly ropiest) S2000s will fit into the budget. Nice cars, but very sensitive to alignment and suspension wear. Get a good one and it's fine. Get a bad one and you probably won't have it long.

I didn't think rx-8s were that kind of money yet, but that 25MPG is a fairly accurate figure. And thats not urban economy either

Other cars available for the budget include: mk2/mk3 mk2. VVTLi Celica (same engine/gbox as the toyota loti). Nissan S15. Mid 90s Mitsubishi Evos will be that kind of money too. There is an awful lot of performance metal out there that isnt shifting at the moment, so be prepared to haggle

Ferris

bp_me wrote: »

Other cars available for the budget include: mk2/mk3 mk2. VVTLi Celica (same engine/gbox as the toyota loti). Nissan S15. Mid 90s Mitsubishi Evos will be that kind of money too. There is an awful lot of performance metal out there that isnt shifting at the moment, so be prepared to haggle

Yeah its like the great car sale of '08. Serious cars out there for nearly nowt. We can all thank Gormley for that.

Toiletroll

Lotus Elise S will give you 41 - 51 mpg

170g Co2

0 - 62 mph - 5 seconds

The VRT % is 25% right now, though I could be wrong (Citation needed:cool:)

The Elise is a great little hardy car. The K-Series is bulletproof if you let it warm up to optimal temp before going over a certain rev. Lovely power delivery.

EDIT - Reliability with my K-Series has been fantastic. Its the most reliable car I've had out of 5.