Doctor Who - 30x13 - Journey's End [SPOILERS][MERGED]

entropi

So, now that the episode has been shown, what did you think of it ?

Personally i thought it was brilliant and a fitting end to the series. Again there were lots of cameos and a few revelations which i won't even place in spoiler tags it would be unfair to those that ain't seen it yet

Since they pulled out all the stops on this one, a big thanks to the production team for pulling it off once again Roll on next series, and for those who ain't seen it, watch through the credits you can thank me later haha.

BuffyBot

I'm a bit conflicted about this one. A let down from last weeks promise.

Bad:

The whole reality bomb thing
The cop-out regeneration
The Doctor-Donna thing
The double-Doctor
The parting. Everyone splitting up like that just didn't work.
Donna's ending. She deserved much, much better than that

I'm trying to think of good things..

rossie1977

good:

it mercifully ended after an hour

terrible garbage altogether i thought after last week had promised so much :mad:

ixoy

Well I wasn't disappointed in expecting to be disappointed with this one, was I? I knew there would be no good way out of this with too many elements in play. The trouble here was manifold:
* Technobabble - Seriously what was with the explanations for the planets being used for a reality bomb? It was a barely intelligible mess. Now maybe I missed something but did we get an explanation as to why those particular 27 planets were chosen? Their alignment or something? Because surely it'd have made sense to find some simpler, less defensive planets?

* The whatever key - So Martha's plan was to blow up the earth? Wow, UNIT's authority has certainly gotten increased clout if they can summarily execute every man, woman and child just because they think times are bad. It was a stupid revelation.

* One of your companions dies - Oh you mean in the way Rose did? No, actually this was even worse because the person was still there. A cheap, cop out to the prophecy.

* Double/Triple Doctor - That regeneration stuff? Poor, very very poor. So the Doctor can now chop a limb off after regenerating and not only use it to stave off a future regeneration but also clone himself? Wow that's some loop hole in the regeneration process! The Master should take note. With the now varied ways of creating extra Time Lords introduced this season, the Galaxy should be full of 'em.

* Dalek Defeat - Doctor Donna just flicked a few switches on a console and that stopped it all (with some techno babble)? In 5 seconds that was it for them? And then the Doctor used some further junky techo-babble to destroy the rest based on shared DNA? Grrr

* Farewells - The Doctor/Rose scene in the bay was obviously meant to be sentimental but it didn't work for me. Instead Rose, ever the spoilt brat, seemed to now want two Doctors for herself. Original Doctor lecturing himself on genocide was also rich, given the Doctor previously destroyed Skaro in a genocidal act before. And then Donna gets absolutely nothing? Mean.

* Too much - Too many people running around with not enough to do. People didn't really do anything, including Rose whose return seemed ever more pointless. Although it seems implied that her whole world built a device just so she could reunite with the Doctor? And bringing in Jackie as a fighter? *Gah*

Now I mean there were a couple of things to like - the SFX, Davros was excellent, Tate put in some fine moments - but overall it was a huge car cash, too much going on, too much babble and lack of cohesion and thus I guess a perfect finish to RTD's reign, a showcase for all the issues I've had with his direction and finales. The door's right over there - don't mind if it hits you on the way out as it's only because I'm kicking it closed behind you.

iguana

Really, really poor.

The good: Bernard Cribbens.

The bad: Pretty much everything else.

Propellerhead

Well, I loved it. Big, noisy, silly, completely implausible and a lot of fun.

For your penance watch Time and the Rani.

Venom

What a load of bollocks. Davros was the only thing saving this episode from being worse than Last of the time Lords. Thank **** RTD is gone so maybe we can get some less retarded Who.

Also am I the only one not digging the Cybermen coming back for the X-mas special?

microgirl

My reactions in the order they happened:

1: This is ****.
2: Um......?
3: Squeeeeeee!/Oh dear *facepalm* (depending which bit of my brain I'm listening to)
4: That's not fair!
5: Ok, now I'm really depressed.

Largely, I agree with the OPs comments, but I still liked it overall. Kind of. I think. (the squee/facepalm was over the Bad Wolf Bay scene - I am a Doctor/Rose girl of old, but *only* Nine/Rose; Ten/Rose never worked and Rose was crap throughout. But at the same time, it ticks fangirl boxes, and there was reference to the Doctor's previous incarnation, with hints that he knows damn well it was that one Rose was really in love with).

It was fun, parts were unexpected, I'm *gutted* about Donna, and I think it's really, really mean and unfair the way that ended. But at least the Rose storyline is over and done with for good now.

microgirl

Venom wrote: »

Also am I the only one not digging the Cybermen coming back for the X-mas special?

No, I'm a bit jaded by that aswell.

The Master

watch through the credits you can thank me later haha.

What?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

davros was great

everything else was terrible

one more year of that fat idiot and then hopefully moffat can rescue the doctor.

daithi_student

ixoy wrote: »

Well I wasn't disappointed in expecting to be disappointed with this one, was I? I knew there would be no good way out of this with too many elements in play. The trouble here was manifold:
* Technobabble - Seriously what was with the explanations for the planets being used for a reality bomb? It was a barely intelligible mess. Now maybe I missed something but did we get an explanation as to why those particular 27 planets were chosen? Their alignment or something? Because surely it'd have made sense to find some simpler, less defensive planets?

* The whatever key - So Martha's plan was to blow up the earth? Wow, UNIT's authority has certainly gotten increased clout if they can summarily execute every man, woman and child just because they think times are bad. It was a stupid revelation.

* One of your companions dies - Oh you mean in the way Rose did? No, actually this was even worse because the person was still there. A cheap, cop out to the prophecy.

* Double/Triple Doctor - That regeneration stuff? Poor, very very poor. So the Doctor can now chop a limb off after regenerating and not only use it to stave off a future regeneration but also clone himself? Wow that's some loop hole in the regeneration process! The Master should take note. With the now varied ways of creating extra Time Lords introduced this season, the Galaxy should be full of 'em.

* Dalek Defeat - Doctor Donna just flicked a few switches on a console and that stopped it all (with some techno babble)? In 5 seconds that was it for them? And then the Doctor used some further junky techo-babble to destroy the rest based on shared DNA? Grrr

* Farewells - The Doctor/Rose scene in the bay was obviously meant to be sentimental but it didn't work for me. Instead Rose, ever the spoilt brat, seemed to now want two Doctors for herself. Original Doctor lecturing himself on genocide was also rich, given the Doctor previously destroyed Skaro in a genocidal act before. And then Donna gets absolutely nothing? Mean.

* Too much - Too many people running around with not enough to do. People didn't really do anything, including Rose whose return seemed ever more pointless. Although it seems implied that her whole world built a device just so she could reunite with the Doctor? And bringing in Jackie as a fighter? *Gah*

Now I mean there were a couple of things to like - the SFX, Davros was excellent, Tate put in some fine moments - but overall it was a huge car cash, too much going on, too much babble and lack of cohesion and thus I guess a perfect finish to RTD's reign, a showcase for all the issues I've had with his direction and finales. The door's right over there - don't mind if it hits you on the way out as it's only because I'm kicking it closed behind you.

I don't even Know where to start were we watching the same episode?!
I thought it was brilliant! You complain about technobabble but you also want a bigger explanation for the planet alignment. I think we can just take it for granted that both the doctor and Davros knew why these Planets were unique but didn't want to give a lecture on interplanetary-physics in the middle of the episode...

Yes it does look like UNITs power has grown since the 70s/80s but why shouldn't it? and the osterhagen key seems like a good plot device i mean UNIT know that humans are not alone in the universe so if the destruction of the earth was to save all other species they would probably be the ones to make the call.

The prophacy was made by the Insane Dalek caan who'd been chained up so there was always the chance of it not being 100% accurate! And to add to that there was the cool twist that having seen the destruction the daleks had caused he was lying...

As for the regeneration we dont know if he has actually used a regeneration or not, he might have, i think he did in fact so in that case its not a regeneration loop-hole its just an alternate root if you happen to have a spare body part from a previous regeneration lying around. And the show would get old fast if they never added to its mythology.

THAT goodbye scene on the beach was brilliant! Rose was not acting like a spoiled brat wanting the both of them but it was a difficult concept for her the 2nd doctor was not actually the person she loved and travelled with and even though she got the new one she also knew the doctor had to leave without her and knew how sad he must have been. Her return was anything but pointless she forwarned them about what was coming!

The DNA defeat thing wasnt really that complicated the other doctor created a weapon that would destroy davros DNA and since the the daleks were all clones it destroyed them too.

Now Back to the main point. in case you didnt realise I thought it was a brilliant episode/series finale! It tied up all of the storylines, it was exciting and it was heart-braking (referring to Donna's outcome of course!) and the dreaded reset was nowhere to be found! anyone agree?

Also Starring LeVar Burton

That was just one cop out after another wasn't it?
Last weeks cliffhangers were;

-Sarah Jane about to be wasted
-Ianto and Gwen about to be wasted
-The Doctor re-generating

-Mickey and Jackie miraculously show up to save Sarah Jane
-A crazy forcefield designed by a dead girl save Ianto and Gwen
-The Doctor regenerates as Tennant (again) - not saying that I'm not glad Tennant is still with us, but what a cop-out.

We were promised the death of a companion and yet they're all still alive...

I liked the whole Two Tennants thing - however dumping one of them in a parallel universe is a cop-out - think of what could have happened if the Doctor literally was his own companion - would've been brilliant.

Donna deserved a better exit - funny to think when it was announced a year ago that Tate would be returning for a whole season how everyone was pissed and how she grew on everyone over the last 13 episodes and people are sad to see her go.

Would I be right in thinking that Martha and Mickey will be replacing Tosh and Owen in Torchwood next year? - Possibly the only good thing to come out of that episode, if it does happen.

pixelburp

Whoah, there's a lot of hatorade being drunk here; I figured some people wouldn't have liked this episode, but I didn't expect such brazen & in some places, vulgar, hatred! Ok, it didn't get off to a good start with the cop-out "regeneration" (that wasn't really), but I thought that otherwise that was a rollicking good episode. There were some good set pieces & some quiet moments to break the tension. It also not only rounded off Donna's plot arc, but also Roses'. Hopefully now we won't see Ms. Tyler again and has been given final closure (complete with a happy ish ending).

As for the other companions, it's nice to see that UNIT now have come a long way since faffing about in the middle of England - I thought the idea of having a planet-destroying key, only accessible from Germany, quite sinister. And German speaking daleks! Haha, that was so funny / cool! What I liked about this episode was that unlike (for instance) the series 2 finale, where we saw only glimpses of the epic scale, this time we took in the whole event. I suppose depending on how you feel about each companion, you could say they all got precious little screen time (with the possible exception of Torchwood who got close to zero, which was a great pity), but I thought they all brought a nice little dimension to the action. But the point is there for all to see; the Doctor's influence changes these people & not necessarily for the better.

On that, It was also worth noting that Davros' taunting of the Doctor echoed quite nicely with previous exchanges with the Doctor. Perhaps THIS is why Davros was always such a big opponent of the Doctor - Davros knows precisely the nature of the Doctor's methods & the nature of the man himself. The Doctor knows this to be true & always battles not to respond to Davros' taunts. It took a weird hyrbid clone to see how far the (real) Doctor could potentially go. We see this again when the Doc reminds Rose that this clone is the same style of man she met during his 9th incarnation; battered, violent and hot-headed. Those two exchanges really saved the episode in my eyes - the mixture of comic book action & character development.

But kudos to a crushing ending. Who cares if no companion actually dies? I mean come on people, the day is saved at the cost of genocide, but the Doctor has lost his best friend, his love, and while for one moment he had a full TARDIS of all his closest and dearest friends (and he loved every second), he flies off into the cosmos wet and alone, having watched Donna lose her memories. That last exchange with Bernard Cribbens was quite touching & to see Tennant standing in the rain utterly dejected was the best, most tragic ending of Doctor Who so far in these 4 series.

Yes, Davros was wasted. Yes, Jackie Tyler was utterly pointless. Yes, Rose didn't really redeem herself despite getting closure on her relationship with the Doctor. Torchwood were wasted. The plot was a bit scattershot, but I don't think you can fault the core of the episode. For all the wonder and spectacle the Doctor brings to peoples lives, he is still a manipulator. He still must face loneliness at the end of every tale. Quite tragic, bravo!

As for the Cybermen? Well it's not like they have been over-used like our good friends from Skaro. Aside from the (also dalek centred) finale in series 2, they have only had the one adventure, so I am keen to see how they get on in only their second standalone adventure. Plus setting it in Victorian times really puts an interesting spin on the Earth invasion episodes.

Doctor DooM

pixelburp wrote: »

Whoah, there's a lot of hatorade being drunk here; I figured some people wouldn't have liked this episode, but I didn't expect such brazen & in some places, vulgar, hatred! Ok, it didn't get off to a good start with the cop-out "regeneration" (that wasn't really), but I thought that otherwise that was a rollicking good episode. There were some good set pieces & some quiet moments to break the tension. It also not only rounded off Donna's plot arc, but also Roses'. Hopefully now we won't see Ms. Tyler again and has been given final closure (complete with a happy ish ending).

As for the other companions, it's nice to see that UNIT now have come a long way since faffing about in the middle of England - I thought the idea of having a planet-destroying key, only accessible from Germany, quite sinister. And German speaking daleks! Haha, that was so funny / cool! What I liked about this episode was that unlike (for instance) the series 2 finale, where we saw only glimpses of the epic scale, this time we took in the whole event. I suppose depending on how you feel about each companion, you could say they all got precious little screen time (with the possible exception of Torchwood who got close to zero, which was a great pity), but I thought they all brought a nice little dimension to the action. But the point is there for all to see; the Doctor's influence changes these people & not necessarily for the better.

On that, It was also worth noting that Davros' taunting of the Doctor echoed quite nicely with previous exchanges with the Doctor. Perhaps THIS is why Davros was always such a big opponent of the Doctor - Davros knows precisely the nature of the Doctor's methods & the nature of the man himself. The Doctor knows this to be true & always battles not to respond to Davros' taunts. It took a weird hyrbid clone to see how far the (real) Doctor could potentially go. We see this again when the Doc reminds Rose that this clone is the same style of man she met during his 9th incarnation; battered, violent and hot-headed. Those two exchanges really saved the episode in my eyes - the mixture of comic book action & character development.

But kudos to a crushing ending. Who cares if no companion actually dies? I mean come on people, the day is saved at the cost of genocide, but the Doctor has lost his best friend, his love, and while for one moment he had a full TARDIS of all his closest and dearest friends (and he loved every second), he flies off into the cosmos wet and alone, having watched Donna lose her memories. That last exchange with Bernard Cribbens was quite touching & to see Tennant standing in the rain utterly dejected was the best, most tragic ending of Doctor Who so far in these 4 series.

Yes, Davros was wasted. Yes, Jackie Tyler was utterly pointless. Yes, Rose didn't really redeem herself despite getting closure on her relationship with the Doctor. Torchwood were wasted. The plot was a bit scattershot, but I don't think you can fault the core of the episode. For all the wonder and spectacle the Doctor brings to peoples lives, he is still a manipulator. He still must face loneliness at the end of every tale. Quite tragic, bravo!

As for the Cybermen? Well it's not like they have been over-used like our good friends from Skaro. Aside from the (also dalek centred) finale in series 2, they have only had the one adventure, so I am keen to see how they get on in only their second standalone adventure. Plus setting it in Victorian times really puts an interesting spin on the Earth invasion episodes.

Great post.

I do think however that the simple amount of cop outs here is more than you are allowing for. FFS, the Doctor didn't even have to stop the Daleks, he had a handy clone plot device to kill them all.

What a strange episode, the emotional moments where great, the sci fi was pants. I liked it and hated it.

Stark

daithi_student wrote: »

I don't even Know where to start were we watching the same episode?!
I thought it was brilliant! You complain about technobabble but you also want a bigger explanation for the planet alignment. I think we can just take it for granted that both the doctor and Davros knew why these Planets were unique but didn't want to give a lecture on interplanetary-physics in the middle of the episode...

Yes it does look like UNITs power has grown since the 70s/80s but why shouldn't it? and the osterhagen key seems like a good plot device i mean UNIT know that humans are not alone in the universe so if the destruction of the earth was to save all other species they would probably be the ones to make the call.

The prophacy was made by the Insane Dalek caan who'd been chained up so there was always the chance of it not being 100% accurate! And to add to that there was the cool twist that having seen the destruction the daleks had caused he was lying...

As for the regeneration we dont know if he has actually used a regeneration or not, he might have, i think he did in fact so in that case its not a regeneration loop-hole its just an alternate root if you happen to have a spare body part from a previous regeneration lying around. And the show would get old fast if they never added to its mythology.

THAT goodbye scene on the beach was brilliant! Rose was not acting like a spoiled brat wanting the both of them but it was a difficult concept for her the 2nd doctor was not actually the person she loved and travelled with and even though she got the new one she also knew the doctor had to leave without her and knew how sad he must have been. Her return was anything but pointless she forwarned them about what was coming!

The DNA defeat thing wasnt really that complicated the other doctor created a weapon that would destroy davros DNA and since the the daleks were all clones it destroyed them too.

Now Back to the main point. in case you didnt realise I thought it was a brilliant episode/series finale! It tied up all of the storylines, it was exciting and it was heart-braking (referring to Donna's outcome of course!) and the dreaded reset was nowhere to be found! anyone agree?

Now I didn't really hate the episode or anything but that is some serious fanwanking (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Fanwank)

I think everything ixoy said is accurate. Especially about the whatever key. Martha didn't say anything about the device being used to sacrifice the human race for the good of other species. It was a euthanasia device, designed to put the human race out of its misery if it was to all turn emo in the morning or some other such nonsense.

daithi_student

Stark wrote: »

Now I didn't really hate the episode or anything but that is some serious fanwanking (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Fanwank)

I think everything ixoy said is accurate. Especially about the whatever key. Martha didn't say anything about the device being used to sacrifice the human race for the good of other species. It was a euthanasia device, designed to put the human race out of its misery if it was to all turn emo in the morning or some other such nonsense.

Do you take issue with my whole view of the ep or just the my osterhagen key theory? Even if it was a "euthenasia device" i dont see why UNIT wouldn't have it as their "plan B". And Martha did say something along the lines of "im guessing you need all 27 planets" to davros, so without the earth the plan wouldnt work. I think the rest of my points were valid.

Stark

But it was a euthanasia device so ixoy's point was valid. As were his other points imo. Anyway, god knows if I was an autocratic ruler of Ireland, building a device to blow the place up if it rained too much or if we caused too much hassle for other countries (vote Yes to Lisbon II, OR ELSE!!) wouldn't be too high on my priority list.

Hrududu

I'm absolutely gutted for Donna. I loved her since The Runaway Bride and her character just got better and better as the season went on. I'm glad they didn't kill her off but putting her back to the way she was before TRB was cruel. The offhand way she said goodbye to the Doctor was kind of heartbreaking. She was definitely my favourite companion and I guess there was no way really that they would get CT to sign on for another series.

Stark

Good acting by Tennant, Sladen, Tate and Cribbons. Bad everything else.

Zaph

CaptainNegative wrote: »

We were promised the death of a companion and yet they're all still alive...

Actually Dalek Caan just kept saying "one will die". I took that to be the "clone" Doctor after he revealed that he had only one heart and would die eventually.

iguana

Zaph wrote: »

Actually Dalek Caan just kept saying "one will die". I took that to be the "clone" Doctor after he revealed that he had only one heart and would die eventually.

But they will all die eventually. Even Jack if he really is The Face of Bo. That was an absolute pants episode, with Bernard Cribben's acting being it's only saving grace.

Also, what was the point in Donna becoming Doctor Donna? Dalek Caan planned it, but all she did was thwart the plan that Caan put in motion in the first place. And then, almost immediately afterwards, lose her mind.

Doctor DooM

Something just occured to me.

If Caan figured the evil nature of Daleks out in the time stream, why did he rescue them at all in the first place?

ixoy

daithi_student wrote: »

I thought it was brilliant! You complain about technobabble but you also want a bigger explanation for the planet alignment.

No I want a better explanation - big difference.

Yes it does look like UNITs power has grown since the 70s/80s but why shouldn't it? and the osterhagen key seems like a good plot device i mean UNIT know that humans are not alone in the universe so if the destruction of the earth was to save all other species they would probably be the ones to make the call.

Well gee thanks UNIT. I imagine all the people of earth would be delighted at that... It's an arrogant gesture for one but far more it's too much of a passive euthanasia approach that doe not at all highlight the qualities of persistence and tenacity that the Doctor so admires in humans.

The prophacy was made by the Insane Dalek caan who'd been chained up so there was always the chance of it not being 100% accurate!

So we're allowed then make excuses for it because it's insane? That's a cop out.

As for the regeneration we dont know if he has actually used a regeneration or not, he might have, i think he did in fact so in that case its not a regeneration loop-hole its just an alternate root if you happen to have a spare body part from a previous regeneration lying around. And the show would get old fast if they never added to its mythology.

I believe he staved off regeneration and said as much and thus fear it's a poor loop hole for an event that is always momentous. There's nothing wrong with changing some aspects of mythology but to undermine the process of regeneration, and the sign of sacrifice it normally exhibits for the Doctor, is something the show should not take lightly or toy it for a cheap thrill.

The DNA defeat thing wasnt really that complicated the other doctor created a weapon that would destroy davros DNA and since the the daleks were all clones it destroyed them too.

It's not complicated, merely a weak ending and a cheap cop out. It was resolved too quickly. Also by letting the Alt Doctor complete the action, it absolved the main Doctor from having to deal with more interesting moral quandries. When the Doctor turned the Hand of Omega on the original Skaro in Season 26, it was more powerful and effective because he had a forced conscious decision. Yes Rose is meant to have thought him some elements of compassion, but the Doctor should still be able to make the tough decisions - much as he did in his final punishments in "Family of Blood".

it was exciting and it was heart-braking (referring to Donna's outcome of course!) and the dreaded reset was nowhere to be found!

Well I wouldn't say the dreaded reset was nowhere to be found since Donna was effectively reset

BlitzKrieg

I am going to express imense frustration on one point.


prissy little Rose Tyler breaks between parallel universes and walks with a david tennant f*ck toy.



ARRGH!

can she do something wrong for once. I was really really hoping for something dark linked to her return.


Also the Caan did it all plot doesnt make sense (as someone already said, if he hadnt gone back there wouldnt have been any daleks) and its also regardless of his madness its out of character with the prior seasons seeing as he was the one who killed the Dalek hybrids in season 3, there should have been a least a bit more self loathing in there.


The only thing RTD seems to hit spot on in his finales is reimagining the villians. The Master, Davros, the Cult of Skaro and the Dalek God emporer all made fantastic finale villians, shame he never does anything interesting with them.


I actually liked the doctor/human clone thing, and when he commited genocide there was a good 20 or so minutes left to the episode, I was hoping for a doctor/doctor duel or something.

But please someone put a bullet through Rose Tyler's head if they bring her back again *grumble*

Goodshape

Equal parts good and bad, I thought.

Ixoy makes fair points but it was still an enjoyable and exciting episode.

Ixoy, or anyone else - were the old series' of Doctor Who so much more realistic, scientific and 'smart'? Just wondering (I never watched them much myself) if it's not all rose-tinted glasses.

Mahatma coat

With the old series we were a lot younger, but yeah there were some great storys in the originals, I do remember there being an awful lot of schmaltz as well tho

BuffyBot

can she do something wrong for once. I was really really hoping for something dark linked to her return.

Of course she can't. Rose is the alter ego of RTD. His Mary Sue.

pixelburp

Goodshape wrote: »

Equal parts good and bad, I thought.

Ixoy makes fair points but it was still an enjoyable and exciting episode.

Ixoy, or anyone else - were the old series' of Doctor Who so much more realistic, scientific and 'smart'? Just wondering (I never watched them much myself) if it's not all rose-tinted glasses.

The old series was guilty of having almost 0 quality control - yes there were some great, classic stories that were well written, compelling & occasionally very adult. But there was also a lot of rubbish with plots that would have made RTDs own finale look coherent by comparison!

is_that_so

Stark wrote: »

But it was a euthanasia device so ixoy's point was valid. As were his other points imo. Anyway, god knows if I was an autocratic ruler of Ireland, building a device to blow the place up if it rained too much or if we caused too much hassle for other countries (vote Yes to Lisbon II, OR ELSE!!) wouldn't be too high on my priority list.

Maybe the Daleks are a metaphor for Lisbon. Impressed that it has wandered into a Dr Who thread.
Personally found it all extremely messy, unsatisfying, too convenient with lots of pointless characters just standing around with nowhere to go. It was as if they thought "we've created this thing now how do we get out of it in 50 minutes".

Personally also less than thrilled about yet another Cybermen run-out.

ixoy

pixelburp wrote: »

The old series was guilty of having almost 0 quality control - yes there were some great, classic stories that were well written, compelling & occasionally very adult. But there was also a lot of rubbish with plots that would have made RTDs own finale look coherent by comparison!

Perfectly true - I recently watched some telesnaps of 'The Celestial Toymaker' and I certainly though that was incoherent mindless nonsense. As much as I give out about Rose, it's mainly for the way the show venerates her too much - pretty much what Blitz Krieg has latched on. She is still however preferable to the screeching lungs of someone like Vicki, nor detestable as the "pippy" Melanie Bush.

No the old show has many faults and much of the science was resolved with reversing the polarities of the neutron flow. However, it didn't descend into techno-babble so much and I'm almost of the opinion that little explanation is better than a really bad one.

The old show also didn't exhibit some of the self-indulgence that characterises the "kitchen sink" approach of RTD's reign where he decides to throw in everything he can and make it about not just the end of earth but everything ever. This sort of OTT was primarily limited to anniversary specials (such as "The Five Doctors") and whether it was because of budgetary constraints or just self-restraint, it worked better not doing too much.

And of course there's an element of nostalgia, that's definitely been evident as I'm watching some of the older episodes and struggling to get through them far more than anything in the new series. Which of course does not remove my criticism of the new ones, merely that you hope people would learn from past mistakes and how the sci-fi format has progressed in terms of story telling.

ophilia

I enjoyed it, it was its usual messy self but again disapointed that poor donna got no where. She was a great side kick for the dr, they played well off each other after martha's stiff wooden character. Also glad rose got her man. However I just don't understand the return of the cybermen at christmas "AGAIN" I don't get why the season finales are really good then the christmas specials are so crap. Will his daughter be back for that or is she just floating around until someone remembers that she's there.

ophilia

I just rewatched the credits what did i miss for the second time?? hope its not the crappy looking christmas special you mean:(

Jack B. Badd

Mostly it was gay, mostly.

Plus the alternative Doctor's Tyler Durden

"I look like you wanna look, I **** like you wanna ****"

moment on the beach was just cringeworthy :-s

Stark

That ad reminded me of the ad for "South Park : Bigger, longer and uncut".

Sleepy

Well, it was apparently Moffat who requested that Jenny survive so I think it's safe to assume she won't be resurrected as a character until he takes the helm.

Another Cyberman episode doesn't exactly thrill me either. What's wrong with creating new villains?

pixelburp

Sleepy wrote: »

What's wrong with creating new villains?

Well if new villains are anything like the Rachnoss or Max Capricorn, then I'll pass on the Xmas day new villains thanks

Doctor DooM

Sleepy wrote: »

Well, it was apparently Moffat who requested that Jenny survive so I think it's safe to assume she won't be resurrected as a character until he takes the helm.

Another Cyberman episode doesn't exactly thrill me either. What's wrong with creating new villains?

Old villians get higher viewing figures and appear on the front of English TV magazines. That's what.

BlitzKrieg

Maybe the Daleks are a metaphor for Lisbon.

yeah this was brought up in the prior episode discussion what with there being 27 planets etc

Dinner

I quite enjoyed it, far from the best episode ever but far from the worst. Some bits were a bit pointless (I'm looking at you Jackie) but it was still enjoyable.

I think you're all being a bit harsh by screaming 'cop out' every 5 minutes. Isn't that the point of Cliffhangers? If you took that view on it then nearly every single episode of *insert drama series here* is made up of cop outs. We all knew that Torchwood/Sarah Jane etc would survive yet seem outraged when they did. Just because it wasn't as amazing as you'd hoped doesn't automatically make it a cop out.

So I don't think it's full of cop-outs just because no one died (although I wish rose did). The thing that pissed me off was what they did to Donna. Ruling out the best and most balanced companion The Doctor has had was just RTD being a bastard. Oh well, at least Rose has gone back to her universe to have heaps of mini doctors. Once she stays there. Hopefully Moffat will have enough sense to not drag her kicking and screaming back in.


On a side note, does anybody know who wrote the specials coming up for next year, is RTD not finished yet or is Moffat starting safe with the Cybermen?

BlitzKrieg

still RTD for the christmas i believe

anotherlostie

Well I liked it up to the point at which the Davros story ended - the rest could have been tied up much more quickly - pity Donna had to go but at least she won't be coming back for guest appearances.

Without doubt my best bits were the Daleks' Hitleresque 'Exterminieren' when Martha teleported to Germany, Dalek Caan's gleeful treachery, Davros being maniacal throughout and finally K9's surprise (to me anyway!) appearance.

Ianto and Gwen didn't do anything and were superfluous to the story, and same could be said for Jackie Tyler and especially Martha's mother.

Goodshape

Arabel wrote: »

On a side note, does anybody know who wrote the specials coming up for next year, is RTD not finished yet or is Moffat starting safe with the Cybermen?

RTD is in control of the specials, afaik. He's writing them.

Moffat takes over at the start of the next full season.

BlitzKrieg

just looking at it again, I have to say I like Captain Jack's line when they pointed out there were 3 doctors

popebenny16

Gosh, three threads to merge

I deliberately waited until I had watched it all again on BBC3 before I posted, as the popebenny16 living room was a bit mad last night, three children were literally hopping up and down, crying in delight at some parts, worried as hell at other parts. In that way you have to hold your hand up and take your hat off to RTD : he delivered a very exciting one hour show at peak Saturday evening time which pulled in 9.4 million viewers.

As someone who hasn't always agreed with RTD or what he has done, and, more to the point, his limitations as a writer, I have to admit that if I was in his position this is broadly the two parter I would have done. It's a "B" movie thunderbolt. Biggest Villians, three herioines, two hero's, and all the new people he'd created all playing a major part (apart from Jackie, but I always liked her - then again I'm 37) all ending with a big bang and a happy result for all the characters, maybe even the Doctor. After what he has done for the series (even if i dont subscribe to the RTD brought back the Doctor theory) the man is entitled to his indulgence, so long as it gets lots of views and makes us all excited.

You could say he is entitled to re-hash previous moments of glory (which we noted started last week) by going back to Bad Wolf Bay, to making a good point about the 9th Doctor, by referencing a DNA solution being broadcast through all the Daleks, by noting that Gwen is a decedent of the chamber maid in the Charles Dickens episode, by having a companion dying who doesn't die (Rose in series 28) and, as has been noted, resetting a plot in the same breath, not to mention saving a companion who looked into the time vortex (albeit in a roundabout way with Donna).

RTD is fantastic in setting up a climax, he did it so well last week, he always does it so well. He also latched onto a fantastic aspect of the Doctor - his loneliness - and also another aspect - that others die for him and he goes on. His development of this, coupled with his 9th/Rose relationship was excellent. 9th was a shell shocked Doctor, traumatised by the time war. Its fairly well said he killed all the Daleks and the Timelords by using some ultimate device - which shows us why he has a very introspective moment when Martha tells him of the ousterhausen key.

As noted above, he also has a great way of dealing with villains but I have to say that I loved this Davros. He was understated, and it made him even more menacing. His reality bomb also referenced nicely back to Skaro in Genesis, when he tells the Doctor that he would release that virus and kill everything. In Journey's End he finally gets his chance. No doubt the sealed off vault survived the big bang and Caan and Davros will return.

Yes, there were plot holes to drive a bus through. Yes, Doctor Donna, not to mention Doctor lite were a cop out (but handy for the real doctor not to do the dirty work) and yes, if you took Rose out of this story it wouldn't have affected it one jolt (hope she gets that fecking lip fixed) [as an aside, mrspopebenny is of the belief that Rose is a utterly pathetic lovesick saddo with a daddy complex] and also resetting Donna was a horrible thing to do, we could almost have had a Romana for next year :P

Oh, six people to drive the TARDIS properly???? Feck off!!! Then again, forgivable bit of Writerwank.

So far, so generous of me. Yes, the kids loved it, many many people would have loved it, I think long term Whovians (like some on this board) wouldn't. That's life. I was carried along by the frantic excitement but when the Crucible blew I felt shallow and empty, the big moment had happened, all that remained was to get the rest over with. It reminded me of a one night stand, all the excitement followed by all the desire to mutter as few words as possible, try to be nice to each other, but really, you want to get out of there.

So, I glanced at the clock, it was 7.20. Another 20 mins. When Mickey/Rickey said "I know what happens next" before running off to Torchwood in January I said the same. A parting of the ways in which the shallow greed and neediness of Rose was contrasted with the pathos of Donna's fate. In yet another nod to his own storyline's, both had looked into the Vortex, both needed the Doctor to wipe it from their minds, but Donna went a lot further than Rose and suffered more. Well, at least Rose got Doctor lite, who mush have been well pleased that she ran after the TARDIS.

By the way, how come there isn't a Doctor in her universe?

The ending, though, was very good. Bernard Cribbens did it again, and Donnamum's "I think Mr Smith was just leaving" was truly excellent after what we saw of her in Turn Left.

As for that ending. Not at "What!!??" in sight. Good.

As for Cybermen. I like them. But, how did alternative universe Cybermen end up in Victorian England?

Oh, God no. Not again!!!!!

Doctor DooM

Arabel wrote: »

I quite enjoyed it, far from the best episode ever but far from the worst. Some bits were a bit pointless (I'm looking at you Jackie) but it was still enjoyable.

I think you're all being a bit harsh by screaming 'cop out' every 5 minutes. Isn't that the point of Cliffhangers? If you took that view on it then nearly every single episode of *insert drama series here* is made up of cop outs. We all knew that Torchwood/Sarah Jane etc would survive yet seem outraged when they did. Just because it wasn't as amazing as you'd hoped doesn't automatically make it a cop out.

So I don't think it's full of cop-outs just because no one died (although I wish rose did). The thing that pissed me off was what they did to Donna. Ruling out the best and most balanced companion The Doctor has had was just RTD being a bastard. Oh well, at least Rose has gone back to her universe to have heaps of mini doctors. Once she stays there. Hopefully Moffat will have enough sense to not drag her kicking and screaming back in.


On a side note, does anybody know who wrote the specials coming up for next year, is RTD not finished yet or is Moffat starting safe with the Cybermen?

The problem as I see it is this: Just like in professional wrestling, if cliffhanger after cliffhanger is spoiled with a cop out (or Dusty finish, as it is known in wrestling) the people watching start disbelieving the cliffhanger and stop caring, which is a bad thing.

I mean, people expect this so much from RTD that no one even started a "who is the next doctor?" thread here.

I thought the episode was very good in some ways (the dark side of the doctor, donna's scenes, Davros) but failing to deliver on cliff hangers WILL start to impede on viewing figures- exactly as it has with professional wrestling. (An odd comparison, I know!)

Fysh

There were some genius little bits mixed with some crap bits, I thought. German speaking Daleks are possibly the niftiest thing I've seen on TV in years, but Doctor/Donna was easily the most annoying. The excessive technobabble and lack of depth to the plotline was a let-down, but there were some nice character moments (Captain Jack's comment when the "3 doctors" thing was explained, or Mickey running off to join the Torchwood gang).

Overall it felt far too much like RTD writing a big "see all the cool stuff I did?" episode, but it could have been worse I suppose. I'm curious to see whether Tennant remains the Doctor or not once Moffat takes over...

Edited to add:

While we're making odd comparisons, this episode brought to mind two comparisons to comics. The whole "Donna being killed by her memories of the Doctor" thing was reminiscent of both the "One More Day" storyline in Spiderman recently (as well as the proposed Superman 2000 storyline which was going to be used to split up Superman and Lois Lane in the exact same way); whereas the Doctor's loneliness and using people to fight for him/getting them killed was very similar to John Constantine from Hellblazer. (Yes, there was a movie as well, but the less said about that the better, frankly...)

pixelburp

Actually, the thought just occurs about this kitchen sink plot. Perhaps it's RTDs attempt to tie up all the loose arcs that he created so as to hand a clean slate over to the Moff when he takes over the top spot? Yes, I'm clawing for excuses here people, but hey, sue me

Rev Hellfire

worst. episode. ever.

Well not quite, but still for a session end pretty poor all round. Although I'll agree that Bernard Cribbens was excellent, and too my surprise Davros wasn't as awful as I imagined he would be.

The ending was a complete farce.

Stark

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

worst. episode. ever.

Well not quite, but still for a session end pretty poor all round.

I still think "Last of the Timelords" retains the prize for worst finale ever. At least there were some redeeming moments this time round.

Rev Hellfire

Stark wrote: »

I still think "Last of the Timelords" retains the prize for worst finale ever.

Ohh I don't know if I could agree with that statement. The "last of the timelords" was pure panto and was streets ahead of the conclusion of this mess.

The only decent bit in the whole thing was the very final scene with the doctor alone on the tardis. Then again perhaps we are looking at this too hard, my 6 and half year old loved it. Then again one good thing did come out of it I was nagged into getting the sarah jane adventures for him which have proven much much better than the more 'adult' other shows.

Personally I'd love to see the series fork and have a series with the darker tones which where getting reintroduced in the Mc Coy era where the doctor was not as benign as he is shown now.