JC Decaux signs start appearing - Shocking.

monument

I'm open to suggestions of others, but the two major problems I see with the proposed bicycle rental system for Dublin is the deal with JC Decaux is a bad one (for DCC at least), and the scale of the system looks to be too small - evening accounting for the difference in the size of Paris and Dublin, the former started off with 10,000 bikes just last year and is now at 20,000 bikes.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This whole bike thing is a scam to get more and more people into an in debt cashless society. Credit card dept alone is a very serious problem in Ireland and we could with less of it and NOT more of it. The vulnerable will be tempted to apply for Visa cards so that they can avail of these.

Forgetting about you're whole scam idea for a second... do you really think it's likely that "the vulnerable" will be tempted to apply for credit cards just so they can use a rental bike system?

Rawr wrote: »

But there are several things that can seriously screw it up for Dublin. Some thoughts:
-It can be real dangerous to cycle in Dublin town

Can you qualify that statement in any meaningful way? What does real dangerous mean?

-The cyclelanes / tracks generally suck.

Yeah, they do. But from my experience of spending most of my time on a bike in Paris on normal roads or in bus lanes, Dublin isn't too far behind.

-Many know this and don't cycle in Dublin
-Tourists don't know this and may suffer seriously as a result

Can you spell out what you're trying to suggest here?... I'm guessing you're not tying to say that tourists can't make up their own minds???

MadsL

Ok Dorset St looks like it is being removed. Now for the next one on Parnell St. This is a poor camphone image but notice the traffic light on the right is obscured except for the red. Which if you think about it means that there is only one effective amber light functioning for the ped crossing. :eek: :eek:

Also any pedestrians crossing behind this sign are hidden from oncoming traffic, the view of drivers turning right out of the carpark is also blocked.



Could someone post better pics if they work/live/drive in the area. Thanks.

Also pics needed of the one by the Bleeding Horse.

Also on the bikes debate - read this analysis on Paris.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4289943.ece

Key points:

Paris’s vélibs are used for 120,000 trips a day, each one averaging 22 minutes. However, the pedal boom has been attended by a jump in cycle deaths and injuries. Three vélib riders have been crushed under the wheels of heavy vehicles and about 70 have been injured since January this year. After a 35-year-old violinist was killed by a municipal bus in a bus lane in May, her father called on the Mayor to suspend the vélib scheme.

About 3,000 of the €400 (£320) bikes have been vandalised or stolen

The city of Paris has made about €30 million profit (Dublin is just giving this away in exchange for 450 bikes)

markpb

monument wrote: »

Can you qualify that statement in any meaningful way? What does real dangerous mean?

Cycle lanes in Dublin are poorly implemented, regularly put cyclists in a more dangerous road position than they would naturally cycle in, often have no legal standing and aren't enforced by the Gardai or DSPS. They are almost never segregated from the rest of the traffic.

Yeah, they do. But from my experience of spending most of my time on a bike in Paris on normal roads or in bus lanes, Dublin isn't too far behind.

True but they're trying. At least some of the bus and cycle lanes are segregated which means they're safer from regular traffic but at more risk from impatient bus drivers.

Can you spell out what you're trying to suggest here?... I'm guessing you're not tying to say that tourists can't make up their own minds???

He's saying that tourists might not realise that if you cycle in a dublin cycle lane drivers are quite happy to move into the lane and crush you. If you sit in the advanced stop boxes, you'll be out of the sight lines of HGVs. If you go at green lights, you're likely to be hit by someone running a red light in the opposite direction. You might mistakenly assume that cycling in Dublin is safe if the LA are being seen to encourage it.

I think DCC are stuck in catch 22. It's not worth spending money on cycle facilities because so few people cycle but it's also not worth getting free bikes because the cycle facilities are so poor. I'm not defending them though, I'd settle for a better deal from JCD (cash + same number of bikes) and them implementing cycle facilities with more than the 2 seconds of thought and planning they currently get.

Run_to_da_hills

monument wrote: »

Forgetting about you're whole scam idea for a second... do you really think it's likely that "the vulnerable" will be tempted to apply for credit cards just so they can use a rental bike system?

It’s just one more excuse for people to want a credit card. Notice in the picture I posted there are advertisements promoting VISA on the side of several bicycles. I’m sure the greedy banks will jump in on the bandwagon and will do great promotions to get 1st year students on to credit cards in their fresher year. i.e. free usage of bicycles for several months in exchange for signing up.

Another thing one must consider is the returning facilities, e.g., When these bikes are returned to a point, what would happen if there was a glut of bikes and not enough docking facilities, You can't just leave your bike or else you will lose your e150 deposit, you will end up cycling around the city looking for another one and walking 1/2 a mile back to the Dart station defeating the whole purpose. This has already being a major problem in Paris.

seamus

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It’s just one more excuse for people to want a credit card. Notice in the picture I posted there are advertisements promoting VISA on the side of several bicycles. I’m sure the greedy banks will jump in on the bandwagon and will do great promotions to get 1st year students on to credit cards in their fresher year. i.e. free usage of bicycles for several months in exchange for signing up.

People know that credit cards are a form of debt. If you're too stupid to manage your money correctly, then it's not the country's business to prevent you flushing it down the drain.

That's a total aside issue. My two main concerns with these bikes would be:

1. You swipe your card, take out the bike, then realise someone has kicked in the wheels, unhooked the brakes and let the air of the tyres. Good luck getting a refund.

2. It's somewhere else for fraudsters to attach their skimmers.

Stark

MadsL wrote: »

Also on the bikes debate - read this analysis on Paris.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4289943.ece

Key points:

Paris’s vélibs are used for 120,000 trips a day, each one averaging 22 minutes. However, the pedal boom has been attended by a jump in cycle deaths and injuries. Three vélib riders have been crushed under the wheels of heavy vehicles and about 70 have been injured since January this year. After a 35-year-old violinist was killed by a municipal bus in a bus lane in May, her father called on the Mayor to suspend the vélib scheme.

To be fair, that sounds like a problem with the city itself rather than the actual bikes. One thing I've found in my experience is that while Irish drivers can be clueless much of the time, French drivers can be complete psychopaths. The HGV accidents call for more cyclist education in my opinion. Countless lives are lost through people simply not realising the danger they put themselves in by sitting in a truck driver's blind spot.

Rawr

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Another thing one must consider is the returning facilities, e.g., When these bikes are returned to a point, what would happen if there was a glut of bikes and not enough docking facilities, You can't just leave your bike or else you will lose your e150 deposit, you will end up cycling around the city looking for another one and walking 1/2 a mile back to the Dart station defeating the whole purpose. This has already being a major problem in Paris.

This is a similar (and often annoying) downside to the system here in Oslo too. There is a city-bike rack near where I live, and another one not far from where I work.

It can very often happen that I'll grab a bike, and head downtown, only to find no docking space for my bike. Lucky, the docks themselves are very big (10+ per advert) and there are many in the area of the city centre. Thus you may end up spending another 2 - 5 minutes before getting to where you are going.

Furthermore, the system here offers a website + mobile phone service to help you find free docking spots and available bikes. The ad company also have trucks going around to regularly rotate the number of bikes at each dock, to ensure that there are always spaces and bikes at each.

The Dublin City-Bikes would at very least have to be run the same way.

Run_to_da_hills

seamus wrote: »

1. You swipe your card, take out the bike, then realise someone has kicked in the wheels, unhooked the brakes and let the air of the tyres. Good luck getting a refund.

I do believe that these bikes are totally incompatible with anything ever made, i.e. everything down to the last nut and bolt is unique to them. they also weigh an absolute ton, so I don't think the bikes nor their parts would be worth robbing, I would say most of them will eventually end up in the Liffey.

The only way that would encourage people to return bikes is to offer some kind of a no quibble reward like what they do with supermarket trolleys. I.e. the price of a packet of fags would be enough to get these bikes returned to a compound.

MadsL

Fresh controversy erupted over Dublin's "billboards for bikes" scheme after one of the new advert panels became an instant traffic hazard.

The sleek electronic "metropanel" was placed directly in front of a set of traffic lights and pedestrian crossing at a busy city junction.

Dublin City Council has ordered advertising giants JC Decaux to immediately remove the structure that outraged locals and councillors.

Calls have now been made for a halt to all work on the scheme until the newly-erected signs are safety-tested.

The 2.5-metre ad panel at the notorious junction of Dorset Street and Synott Place was one of a series of billboards being installed in a scheme backed by Dublin City Council.

The council has now requested the removal of the offending billboard and JC Decaux has undertaken to do so in the next 24 hours.

obstruction

"The sign was an obstruction to the traffic lights and as such its sitting was not in accordance with the terms of the grant of planning permission at this location", a council spokesman said.

"Recent improvement works along Dorset Street has altered the width and alignment of the footpath at this location resulting in the approved sign, which was erected in the correct location, obstructing views for pedestrians and motorists".

He stressed that a safety audit under the terms of the planning permissions granted is being compiled by JC Decaux and where any sign fails the audit they will be removed.

However, Councillor Emer Costello said: "I am outraged by what I have seen, especially as there has been a huge number of incidents at those particular traffic lights".

JC Decaux proposed funding a free bicycle scheme similar to other European capitals in return for around 150 billboards, though this was later dropped to under 100.

Dublin City Council eventually agreed to 72 sites and some were appealed. In February, An Bord Pleanala overturned permission for 18 billboards, but endorsed six of the 2.5-metre high structures.

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/billboards-that-caused-traffic-chaos-1430159.html

*Sigh* journalists...well done for picking it up but the picture doesn't exactly 'tell the story'.

"Sleek"???

He stressed that a safety audit under the terms of the planning permissions granted is being compiled by JC Decaux and where any sign fails the audit they will be removed.

The point (and the story!) is that the safety audit is only being done AFTER construction.

erected in the correct location

No it wasn't

Dublin City Council eventually agreed to 72 sites

No, they agreed too more - individuals paying almost €300 each in taking it to An Bord Pleanala reduced that number.

Who changed the road layout - DCC, who granted permission. DCC.

Hmmm...excuses.

seamus

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I do believe that these bikes are totally incompatible with anything ever made, i.e. everything down to the last nut and bolt is unique to them. they also weigh an absolute ton, so I don't think the bikes nor their parts would be worth robbing, I would say most of them will eventually end up in the Liffey.

The only way that would encourage people to return bikes is to offer some kind of a no quibble reward like what they do with supermarket trolleys. I.e. the price of a packet of fags would be enough to get these bikes returned to a compound.

I'm not talking so much about the users, but just random vandalism.

As anyone who's ever left their bike locked in public on a Friday or Saturday night knows, you're lucky to find a functional bike the next day after drunken scumbags have kicked the **** out of it.

MadsL

In Paris Decaux lost 3000 bikes in the first year

MadsL

There will be an item on this on the Breakfast Show on newstalk tomorrow (Thurs 10th July) at approx 8am.

Please send your comments to breakfast@newstalk.ie or text 53106


Appreciate your further support.

monument

markpb wrote: »

Cycle lanes in Dublin are poorly implemented, regularly put cyclists in a more dangerous road position than they would naturally cycle in, often have no legal standing and aren't enforced by the Gardai or DSPS. They are almost never segregated from the rest of the traffic.

I was really asking about Rawr's unqualified meaning of "real dangerous".

I far too many people over estimate how dangerous cycling is in Dublin and in Ireland in general.

markpb wrote: »

He's saying that tourists might not realise that if you cycle in a dublin cycle lane drivers are quite happy to move into the lane and crush you. If you sit in the advanced stop boxes, you'll be out of the sight lines of HGVs. If you go at green lights, you're likely to be hit by someone running a red light in the opposite direction. You might mistakenly assume that cycling in Dublin is safe if the LA are being seen to encourage it.

I think that's something like saying they stop people from walking in Paris because drivers often zoom past even after the light is showing a green man.

And on the bike rental systems, I think if Paris - with their crazy roads - can do it, we can in Dublin.

markpb wrote: »

I think DCC are stuck in catch 22. It's not worth spending money on cycle facilities because so few people cycle but it's also not worth getting free bikes because the cycle facilities are so poor. I'm not defending them though, I'd settle for a better deal from JCD (cash + same number of bikes) and them implementing cycle facilities with more than the 2 seconds of thought and planning they currently get.

Totally agree with you on that.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

....Another thing one must consider is the returning facilities, e.g., When these bikes are returned to a point, what would happen if there was a glut of bikes and not enough docking facilities, You can't just leave your bike or else you will lose your e150 deposit, you will end up cycling around the city looking for another one and walking 1/2 a mile back to the Dart station defeating the whole purpose. This has already being a major problem in Paris.

That's not such a large problem in Paris where there are so many stations. When you're at a station which is full there's normally another not too far away and/or somebody will come along to rent a bike.

If the stations in Dublin are spread out - and with a far smaller system to start with - this really might be a major problem.

And while this is something that can be a real problem in any system like this, it can be as simple as more docking bays being added to really busy stations.

seamus wrote: »

...That's a total aside issue. My two main concerns with these bikes would be:

1. You swipe your card, take out the bike, then realise someone has kicked in the wheels, unhooked the brakes and let the air of the tyres. Good luck getting a refund.

2. It's somewhere else for fraudsters to attach their skimmers.

As for 1: I'm open to correction on this, but if the Dublin rates is like the one Paris, you simple return the bike.

On 2: Taking into account that stations have far fewer card transactions compared to rentals (even day or week users don't enter their card each time), I think that's also a side issue.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

...I would say most of them will eventually end up in the Liffey.

The only way that would encourage people to return bikes is to offer some kind of a no quibble reward like what they do with supermarket trolleys. I.e. the price of a packet of fags would be enough to get these bikes returned to a compound.

The bike are not - as has been reported - free. You need a subscription, and if the bike is not returned a deposit will be take from you.

Sure, you all ready know you need a credit card to rent the bikes. So, I really don't know how you can back the above up.

monument

MadsL wrote: »

Also on the bikes debate - read this analysis on Paris.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4289943.ece

Key points:

Paris’s vélibs are used for 120,000 trips a day, each one averaging 22 minutes. However, the pedal boom has been attended by a jump in cycle deaths and injuries. Three vélib riders have been crushed under the wheels of heavy vehicles and about 70 have been injured since January this year. After a 35-year-old violinist was killed by a municipal bus in a bus lane in May, her father called on the Mayor to suspend the vélib scheme.

And the next paragraph of the same article...

The authorities are blaming the cyclists as well as the city’s notoriously aggressive drivers, although the overall accident rate has declined by 20 per cent. Many accidents involve inexperienced riders or careless tourists.

EDIT: Reading that (London) Times article fully... LOL!!!

Police are handing out football-style yellow cards this week to cyclists, drivers and pedestrians who commit minor but potentially dangerous offences. Last year 7,000 fines were issued to cyclists, double the previous year. Yet few riders of the vélibs bother to wear helmets or high-visibility attire and more than half do not stop at red lights.

... that's a very UK / Irish / US point of view. You won't see many helmets or high-visibility vests most of Europe, including cycling cultures like Denmark, the Netherlands, Germany etc.

And "and more than half do not stop at red light" looks like a stat picked out of thin air (from the polices' or the reporter's mind)

MadsL wrote: »

In Paris Decaux lost 3000 bikes in the first year

If you're taking that from the Times article, you should note that it's 3,000 vandalised or stolen. And that's out of a reported 20,000 Vélib bikes now in Paris...

JCDecaux, the firm which operates the bicycles in return for concessions in display advertising, acknowledges that it found the scheme tougher than it had expected. About 3,000 of the €400 (£320) bikes have been vandalised or stolen, it said.

Run_to_da_hills

monument wrote: »

The bike are not - as has been reported - free. You need a subscription, and if the bike is not returned a deposit will be take from you Sure, you all ready know you need a credit card to rent the bikes. So, I really don't know how you can back the above up.

I never once said in any of my posts that the bikes were free, infact I disputed the fact that credit cards were necessary to activate an account to hire them. I am talking about the oppertunist thief who nicks one of these to get to the pub and then dumps it, If some scanger then finds it rather than throwing it over the quays he can bring it to a compound and get a small token reward for it. They cannot make the reward too much as it would encourage theft. A Supermarket trolly would be in the reagion of e70 but a simple e2 deposit keeps them returned.

monument

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I never once said in any of my posts that the bikes were free, infact I disputed the fact that credit cards were necessary to activate an account to hire them. I am talking about the oppertunist thief who nicks one of these to get to the pub and then dumps it, If some scanger then finds it rather than throwing it over the quays he can bring it to a compound and get a token reward for it.

What are we talking about here?... stealing a locked bike? Opportunistically?

You seam to be over talking the likelihood of this, and other doomsday scenarios.

Run_to_da_hills

monument wrote: »

What are we talking about here?... stealing a locked bike? Opportunistically?

Read the end of the edited post. Any of the locking stations i have seen around railway stations Central London have a CCTV cam overlooking them. The locks at the docking stations are extremly robust and I dont think anyone would be stupid to risk trying to nick one for the sake of e5 or e10.

monument wrote: »

You seam to be over talking the likelihood of this, and other doomsday scenarios.

Leaving out the "doomsday sinarios" I am totally against the encouragement use of credit cards because they are one of the main causes of leading people into financial debt, Ie people are tempted to buy stuff they cannot really afford. There are plenty of people that have been turned away from future loans and mortgages because of being blacklisted by credit cards. The 3V cards are a good idea because one can only spend on what they have deposited in the account.

monument

If it's not stealing locked bikes, what exactly do you mean by "I am talking about the oppertunist thief who nicks one of these to get to the pub and then dumps it"?

Run_to_da_hills

monument wrote: »

If it's not stealing locked bikes, what exactly do you mean by "I am talking about the oppertunist thief who nicks one of these to get to the pub and then dumps it"?

Somewhere along the line someone will find these unlocked, happens all the time. outside shops,work places, in drive ways, etc. I had several bikes nicked in the past from just being careless. The oppertunist thief is not interested in going out of his way to rob, he will just take something when he sees it handy.

MadsL

Monument - do you think plonking advertising signs in dangerous locations is worth this bike scheme?

Don't get me wrong I support a bike scheme, just not this one, whose value to the city seems to be shrinking day by day.

Do you think it's worth what we are giving away in return?

monument

MadsL wrote: »

Monument - do you think plonking advertising signs in dangerous locations is worth this bike scheme?

Don't get me wrong I support a bike scheme, just not this one, whose value to the city seems to be shrinking day by day.

Do you think it's worth what we are giving away in return?

No, I don't think the billboards-for-bikes scheme is worth it if (1) the locations are dangerous, (2) if they are obstructive to people on already small pavements, or (3) even if they are overly obtrusive (the latter of which is a little more subjective than the first two).

And, to quote my self, as I already said on this thread:

...the two major problems I see with the proposed bicycle rental system for Dublin is the deal with JC Decaux is a bad one (for DCC at least), and the scale of the system looks to be too small - evening accounting for the difference in the size of Paris and Dublin, the former started off with 10,000 bikes just last year and is now at 20,000 bikes.

ardmacha

I am totally against the encouragement use of credit cards because they are one of the main causes of leading people into financial debt

Credit cards no more cause debt than cars cause road accidents, it is the people who use them.

In any case the intention is to use payment cards, I am sure that debit cards like Laser or Visa will do the job just as well.

Run_to_da_hills

ardmacha wrote: »

Credit cards no more cause debt than cars cause road accidents, it is the people who use them..

And just like driving, its the inexperienced that are the most vulnerable.

ardmacha wrote: »

In any case the intention is to use payment cards, I am sure that debit cards like Laser or Visa will do the job just as well.

And also Dublins new integrated transit Smart card as these things have been a great success with JCDecaux in Lyons for a number of years.

http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/articleprint/2013/-1/1

MadsL

Dublins new integrated transit Smart card

Wouldn't hold your breath on that one...

In December 2007 the initial testing of smart card ticketing equipment commenced on buses. In January 2008, smart card readers were installed on 100 buses and more extensive testing commenced. As testing continues, equipment is being progressively rolled out to the entire bus fleet. The system is planned to be commissioned by mid 2008, at which time a range of tickets will be issued on disposable smart cards.

A reloadable smart card, being developed by the RPA for the integrated ticketing system, will be introduced at a later date.

www.dublinbus.ie

Still waiting...integrated ticketing is a joke at this stage.

The long-awaited integrated ticketing system for public transport will not be fully operational until 2010, the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) has told Dublin City Council.

Councillors from all parties last night said they were shocked and disappointed the single ticketing scheme for buses, Dart, Irish Rail, Luas and metro systems will be delayed for at least three years, and that €13 million of the €50 million budget for the project has already been spent.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2007/1109/1194549954679.html

Run_to_da_hills

MadsL wrote: »

Still waiting...integrated ticketing is a joke at this stage.

It is coming, the machines are all compatible with each other, the only thing thats holding it back is red tape. How long did it take all the banks to fully integrate their all their ATM machines?.

Zoney

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It is coming, the machines are all compatible with each other, the only thing thats holding it back is red tape. How long did it take all the banks to fully integrate their all their ATM machines?.

Getting a bit off-topic, but my bank notified me that one of the main banks here has recently withdrawn from the ATM scheme - so in fact you end up using Cirrus or whatever as if you were abroad when you use these ATMs (fortunately my account doesn't charge for that).

Lets hope there doesn't end up being an odd man out being obstinant and not joining the integrated ticketing train.

seamus

MadsL, if that was you on Newstalk this morning, good job. Very clear and no spin

I would have texted in but I was on the bike

As for 1: I'm open to correction on this, but if the Dublin rates is like the one Paris, you simple return the bike.

On 2: Taking into account that stations have far fewer card transactions compared to rentals (even day or week users don't enter their card each time), I think that's also a side issue.

Clearly I need to read up on it a bit more

MadsL

MadsL, if that was you on Newstalk this morning, good job.

Thanks. Appreciate you listening in.

Run_to_da_hills

MadsL wrote: »

Thanks. Appreciate you listening in.

I missed it , do you have a recording of it?

L1011

Zoney wrote: »

Getting a bit off-topic, but my bank notified me that one of the main banks here has recently withdrawn from the ATM scheme - so in fact you end up using Cirrus or whatever as if you were abroad when you use these ATMs (fortunately my account doesn't charge for that).

Lets hope there doesn't end up being an odd man out being obstinant and not joining the integrated ticketing train.

Yeah, National Irish withdrew and Halifax were never in it to begin with. Pain in the hole for those of us with BOI ATM cards who haven't got Laser (never needed it...) and hence don't have Cirrus.