Unbelievable.

mayhem#

I submitted a licence application for a Mossberg 500 pump action shotgun 5 weeks ago.
Have been trying to get hold of the firearms officer ever since just to check that everything is in order but as seems to be the standard he is impossible to get hold of.
Yesterday I go a call from the station telling em that "Dublin" had sent back the application and that they required clarification if a "Mossberg 500 pump action shotgun" was a single or double barrel and if the latter was it o/u or side-by-side?
WTF?
After having clarified this I was told that the application would have to be sent back to Dublin and could take another 6 weeks.
Now I rememebr that there was a post in the forum some time ago with the contact details of the person that handles all application in the Phoenix park office. Has anybody got these details or a link to that discussion?

Grizzly 45

That sounds like somone is extracting the Urine out of you in your local station.:rolleyes:.Dublin,Isuppose being more specific the firearms liscense section in the Phoenix park,Garda HQ.Is run by a very nice lady called Mary[2nd name left out for security reasons].Who takes great pride in her work and actually gets at least handgun liscenses turned around within 24 hours.Would say a phone call to her might shed some light on the 6week question.Considering that it is less than 4weeks to liscense issue time again it sounds dubious at best.

jwshooter

mayhem# wrote: »

I submitted a licence application for a Mossberg 500 pump action shotgun 5 weeks ago.
Have been trying to get hold of the firearms officer ever since just to check that everything is in order but as seems to be the standard he is impossible to get hold of.
Yesterday I go a call from the station telling em that "Dublin" had sent back the application and that they required clarification if a "Mossberg 500 pump action shotgun" was a single or double barrel and if the latter was it o/u or side-by-side?
WTF?
After having clarified this I was told that the application would have to be sent back to Dublin and could take another 6 weeks.
Now I rememebr that there was a post in the forum some time ago with the contact details of the person that handles all application in the Phoenix park office. Has anybody got these details or a link to that discussion?

Ring HQ on 016660000 i bet a you tenner they never got your application i used to hear the same crap hear when i started shooting.HQ know what a mossburg pump is

Sparks

I'd say take a deep breath, relax, forget all the crap, then call the FO, find out if the application's been sent to Dublin yet, and if it has, call the Phoenix Park office (01 666 2445, ask for Mary) and politely ask as to the status of it.

Don't let yourself get riled up. It only ever works against you in situations like this. Even if you have to take the Super to the District Court, strive to be polite and restrained when talking to him at all times.

Remember, if it lands in front of a DC judge, your displayed personality will be a factor, and the DC judge's decision is final and unappealable (except on a point of law and that goes straight to the High Court and now you're paying for a barrister's S-class).

pullandbang

Sparks wrote: »

I'd say take a deep breath, relax, forget all the crap, then call the FO, find out if the application's been sent to Dublin yet, and if it has, call the Phoenix Park office (01 666 2445, ask for Mary) and politely ask as to the status of it.

Don't let yourself get riled up. It only ever works against you in situations like this. Even if you have to take the Super to the District Court, strive to be polite and restrained when talking to him at all times.

Remember, if it lands in front of a DC judge, your displayed personality will be a factor, and the DC judge's decision is final and unappealable (except on a point of law and that goes straight to the High Court and now you're paying for a barrister's S-class).

Now there's sound advice..........

I know it's frustrating waiting for the paperwork to go through, but look at it this way. You've been at least 18 years (assuming you're over 18) without the Mossberg, another couple of weeks will make no difference.

IDon'tKnow!

Sure when you look back at the event you will find that the anticipation of getting your new firearm will make finally getting it more pleasurable.

clivej

It took me exactly 12 weeks for my license for a Mossberg 88 6 shot pump to come though.It was up and back from Dublin because "the previous owner was still registered as the present owner" ???????????
But then I got my CZ 22lr license on the same day as the Mossberg 88, 8 weeks wait for the CZ 22.

mayhem#

Lads, I have better things to do than to get worked up about this.
However it just amazes em that they expect someone to take such a stupid question seriously.
Will give Mary a call in the morning, put on my best Barry White voice and see if they ever received the application..

mayhem#

I have been in contact with Mary this week (who was indeed very helpfull). After I explained the situation she had two comments:

• She would never ask such a stupid question
• They haven't received my application at all

Obviously my local station is delaying the application for reasons only known to them. I tried contacting the FO but was repeatedly told he was not on duty until tomorrow.
What should I do now?
Should I contact the Super and tell him politely what is going on?

Sparks

No. You call the super like that and what he'll see is a civilian telling him that a subordinate is breaking the law. Unless you enjoy courts, avoid that.

Do contact your superintendent and ask to meet with him in regard to your application. Make the point that you didn't want to bother him directly, but Superintendent Noel Clarke asked (at the FCP conference, which he did) for everyone to talk to their Superintendent if there was any problem with such applications instead of talking to the FO on the desk. Ask politely what the situation with the application is and if there are any problems. At this point, it's been brought to his attention and he's required by law to progress it, and to be entirely fair, 99% of the time that's precisely what happens.

Meanwhile, keep a private log of all dates/times/phonecalls/correspondance, just in case. But don't ever mention this to anyone - if you do need to use it down the line, you'll mention it to the judge, not the Garda, and if you do have to use it, it won't be an "Ah-ha, I have you now you bounder" sort of moment, it's just a professional thing. The Gardai keep the same logs. It's important that you keep it as impartial as is humanly possible here.

And again, remember that the reality is that about two hundred and forty thousand of these are done every year without problem, if with a small delay. Just exhibit Job-like virtues and keep a firm grip on your temper - and if it helps, read the thread on the case in Donegal and note that the applicant losing his temper there was a primary factor in his case being lost.

Grizzly 45

Get onto the FO tomrrow when he/she is on duty.Tell them exactly what Mary said and what are they going to do about it???If it is according to them[local garda] a load of cobblers and it was a genuine request,take your mobile with you,ring Garda HQ ask for Mary,explain where you are and state the Gardai still say it came from Dublin and maybe Mary and FO would like a word to sort out the crossed wires??And then watch the FO get chewed out!!:)
From what I have heard of that lady,she will not suffer fools gladly,and scuttlebutt has it that she apprently told a Super somwhere that he was a barefaced liar regarding a handgun application.:eek:

If they say well,I'll get right on to it.Say that you expect this matter to be dealt with now by July 31st as it is in the re liscensing timeframe.Also you will be checking now every week with "Dublin" to see thast this is processed.Otherwise you intend to take this further up the chain,as you belive your rights under the Garda charter of customer service[prompt ,corteous and efficent dealing with members of the public] copy to be found in every Garda station, has not been fulfilled.
Be a complate BasT""d on these things.But in the nicest possible way!:D

Adding on of Sparks exellent advice,in the last post.A diary of events is most important.
I personally try and get it sorted out on the lower levels before going up the chain.As it sort of gets the workers off the hook to sort out the mess,before the boss gets involved.
However trying to get to meet your local Super in person.It would be somtimes easier to get a Papal audience:eek:
Again you have one Super saying this should be done in an application process,and all the rest making up their own laws as they go.:(

thehair

the date for everbody to get ther fire arms cert renewd is 31-7-2008
so a lot of paper work for the fo so wait a little bit longer say bey
14-8-2008 and then ask steve:D my 2 cent worth

Sparks

If you're in the 1% - and this is really more just general info than an estimation that you are (personally I think it's far more likely that the FO just got behind on paperwork) - there are some things to keep in mind on what's coming up:

• It's three months from first application without word from the super before you're deemed to have been refused;
• If you are refused before then, you're entitled to be notified that you're refused and why - get both bits of information before going further - if you're not refused before then you won't be notified, you have to go get the reason yourself;
• The next step is effectively the last step - you appeal on form 100.1 to the local district court. You don't have to have a solicitor, but then, you don't have to have airbags in your car either - you'd just be foolish not to.
• Remember some things about the DC appeal:
  • The District Court is a court of local and summary jurisdiction. Meaning, this is it - what the DC judge says is the final decision unless he has a serious error in a point of law (and then you're off to the High Court, not the Circuit Court). It's a one-shot deal. Do it right the first time.
  • The DC judge has to cope on a daily basis with the sort of thing that most of us would regard as psychologically traumatising. Drunken brawls, child abuse, family break-ups, abusive spouses, petty thefts, stupid bickering neighbours, the works. They don't have a lot of patience for faffing about as a result, nor do they tend to look with fondness on fancy arguments citing obscure references. They're still courts of law, but they err more towards the spirit of the law than towards the letter, if you follow me.
  • There are no written judgements freely available as in the High Court - it's pretty much wham, bam, thank you your honour. In fact there have been cases of people having to get court orders to get transcripts from district courts.
  • DC judges see Gardai all the time. They do not see you all the time. Unless you have a solid case, or they have reason to do otherwise, they're more likely to accept the Gardai's take on the situation.

Basicly, don't be in the 1%, it's nowhere near as nice and neat as you'd imagine.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Get onto the FO tomrrow when he/she is on duty.Tell them exactly what Mary said and what are they going to do about it???If it is according to them[local garda] a load of cobblers and it was a genuine request,take your mobile with you,ring Garda HQ ask for Mary,explain where you are and state the Gardai still say it came from Dublin and maybe Mary and FO would like a word to sort out the crossed wires??And then watch the FO get chewed out!!:)

Feck's sake Grizzly. Did we not just see in Donegal that picking a fight with a Garda in his own station doesn't lead to positive results?

Mayhem, whatever else you do, do not try scoring points or one-upping the gardai. You're trying to get a licence for a firearm, not embarress someone else. You've already let Mary know what the situation is just by talking to her and if you think this thread won't eventually work its way back to her, you've misunderstood me when I've said on here repeatedly that the Gardai and DoJ read this site regularly.

And remember - if you do ever have to have an argument with a Garda about what he should or should not do when he doesn't want to do what you want him to, you always have that argument in front of a judge in a court. Having such an argument anywhere else, anytime else, is worse than a waste of breath, it sabotages your chances of eventually achieving your goal.

Just take a deep breath, follow the rules, ignore the fustration and delays as best you can and get through it. It sucks, but there's nothing you personally can do about that while you're standing there in the station on your own - and there's not much the guy standing across the desk from you can do about it either. Fixing the system is something done way over his head.

meathstevie

Mayhem, I can only draw a couple of conclusions :

- your FO needs a lot of training on firearms before he should even call
himself an FO
- his administration skills are more than likely on the shaky side

Count to ten, go back in and resubmit the application and ask for an expected date for forwarding your application to HQ. Tell your FO that if there's any problem with the application you can help with he shouldn't hesitate to give you a shout, same for the Super's office.

Maybe you can put down the following as description of the gun : single barrel, pump action repeater shotgun. At least the FO won't have to ask anymore daft questions.

Oh, and keep a nice friendly poker face all the time while dealing with An Garda's finest. Keep in mind they're not all like that and also that the Super most of the time will follow the advice of the FO. A lot of FO's and rural station sergeants are perfectly likeable intelligent folks who have no problem at all assisting a sports shooter.

Our local man is one of those. He'll ask you for a short description of what you want to buy and what you want it for and when he's happy with that
you can expect a little note in your mailbox a couple of weeks down the line saying that there's a licence for collection in the station.

Sparks

A lot of FO's and rural station sergeants are perfectly likeable intelligent folks who have no problem at all assisting a sports shooter.

Yup. In fact, for "A lot" you can safely read "95% or more". Not much use when you have one of the 5%, I'll grant you, but important to remember anyway.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Feck's sake Grizzly. Did we not just see in Donegal that picking a fight with a Garda in his own station doesn't lead to positive results?

Hardly picking a fight Sparks,when you are asking the two parties with differing views to sort out a conflict of procedures in their same organisation.And you are providing one of them with the means to do so.

Sparks

It is if you go about it by walking into the station and calling up the Park and asking them to berate a Garda in front of you as though both he and they were your lackeys!

Grizzly 45

She can berate him all she wants Sparks,if he is fuking up and passing the buck onto her and rightly so!All you are doing is asking both sides to sort out a problem in an organisation where YOU no matter the outcome are still a CUST_OM_ER!!! That has been fobbed off,you are still entitled to respectful service,not be sent off on a wild goose chase because somone is not doing their job.

Sparks

Certainly she can Grizzly, and more power to her for doing so, but you're missing the point, which is that if Mayhem goes into a Garda station, calls up the Park and asks them to berate the Garda in front of him;

• It won't be well received by the Park because they're not at his beck and call;
• It won't be well received by the Garda because he's not at Mayhem's beck and call (no, he is not, he's a public servant, meaning that he's there to help everyone not one person);
• It's not part of the application process, meaning it's a waste of Mayhem's time on something that won't get him his licence any faster and may cause problems down the line;
• Mary does not require Mayhem to make the call, she is more than capable of dialling the phone herself if she deems it necessary;
• This whole idea smacks of being a twelve-year-old and getting mommy to yell at daddy. Seriously. The words "grow up" are coming to mind here.

Grizzly 45

quote=Sparks;56525146]Certainly she can Grizzly, and more power to her for doing so, but you're missing the point, which is that if Mayhem goes into a Garda station, calls up the Park and asks them to berate the Garda in front of him;

NO Sparks YOU are not getting the point on several issues here.
Read my post again.I said if the Mayhem goes in and says "look lads I was i n contact with Dublin,and they said [1] they never heard of this request,as they know what a Mossberg shotgun is,and [2] They havent recived my appication. So whats the problem?"

Garda,thats a load of BS!Are you saying we are lying?Etc?[In the usual manner of a polite public servant addressing a taxpayer in Ireland.Which BTW is abymasal on an European std]
Mayhem."no I am not saying that,but maybe you would like to to the lady concerned,who stated this and maybe there is some paperwork mix up.Here use my phone as well,so we can get this cleared up here and now and move on."

That sounds like a normal ADULT way of sorting out a problem in an organisationl defects and public service in the rest of the civilised world.Maybe it is different in Ireland???????????

• It won't be well received by the Park because they're not at his beck and call;
• [/QUOTE Never said that they were ,however one dept is blaming the park for a problem that the park has denied exists.And didnt YOU Sparks say that Superintendantsand the Gardai want to hear about delays and hassle in the system???

• It won't be well received by the Garda because he's not at Mayhem's beck and call (no, he is not, he's a public servant, meaning that he's there to help everyone not one person);

In this case he IS dealing[more or less,less by fobbing him off with BS] with one specific person unless Mayhem is dual liscensing the firearm.So sorry pendantism doesnt work here.

• It's not part of the application process, meaning it's a waste of Mayhem's time on something that won't get him his licence any faster and may cause problems down the line;

No ,but it should show that he shouldnt be treated as an inconvience or a fool.But as a taxpayer requesting a certain item and procedure off a public servant.

1st off he has been mistreated by the Gardai under their own customer charter.Go into any station and read it or look it up on line.It states quite clearly that all individual enquiries will be dealt with in a prompt,fair,timely and corteous manner.
No amount of BS will say in this case otherwise.The FO has sent Mayhem off on a wild goose chase for whatever reason,and blamed it on another dept in his organisation.Wether by accident or design[more like design].So instead of saying "look I apologise for not getting your application sorted,we have been snowed in with work,or whatever and I'll get this underway right now.Sorry about this."
Which is what you would get in any other country in the EU.
And would have also been honest,left a good impression on us all reading this thread,and been a credit to the force he is working for .
Instead
He is trying to BS his way out by blaming somone else,hoping it will go away.Typical Irish authorithy stunt!! Sorry,with authorithy comes responsibility,so be prepared to take your lumps.
We go on about customer service alot here but then wont do anything about it because it might "cause problems" later on.THAT sort of an attitude will never get us to be taken sriously.

Mary does not require Mayhem to make the call, she is more than capable of dialling the phone herself if she deems it necessary;

I hope she has done it already,and bollocked him out of it.
However it would be nice for Mayhem to be able to get on with this and be able to have one card available to say "cmon cut the BS here...can we handle this like adults and stop peeing on my shoes and tell me that it is raining?"

• This whole idea smacks of being a twelve-year-old and getting mommy to yell at daddy. Seriously. The words "grow up" are coming to mind here.
• Yes indeedy Sparks,Grow up and accept that if we dont start talking back and expect to be treated like adults and customers here .We will always have ****e service and arrogant public servants,and this sort of tomfoolery handed to us as service.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

That sounds like a normal ADULT way of sorting out a problem

No, it sounds like trying to start a fight. It also sounds like ignoring the most authoritative advice on the problem (no, not from me, from Superintendent Noel Clarke, who said skip the FO and go direct to the Super in such cases).

Never said that they were ,however one dept is blaming the park for a problem that the park has denied exists

Not one department, one person, who don't forget is not the guy that makes the decision. Just skip the scoring points bit, go straight to the super.

And didnt YOU Sparks say that Superintendantsand the Gardai want to hear about delays and hassle in the system???

No, I didn't. I said - and some time ago at that - that the Gardai want to hear about problems from the Firearms Consultative Panel. Not from everyone submitting an application while they're standing in the station accusing the FO of lying. Grizzly, you do realise that if you did what you suggest, the FO has to go into a disciplinary process, right? And that given the thugs your average garda has to deal with on the pointy end of things, there are good reasons to only make such arguments in the right forum, where it stops being a shouting match across a desk and starts being an actual hearing?

Yes indeedy Sparks,Grow up and accept that if we dont start talking back and expect to be treated like adults and customers here .We will always have ****e service and arrogant public servants,and this sort of tomfoolery handed to us as service.

Grizzly, I'll say it once clearly. Perhaps more clearly than I should have to say this to a grown man. :mad:

Argue with a Garda anywhere outside a courtroom and you'll lose.

You cannot, ever force a Garda to do something they don't want to by shouting and yelling at them or trying to embarress them.

If you really, really have a problem with a Garda that has to be dealt with - and picking your battles is a major requirement here - then shut your mouth until you have a solicitor handy. I can guarantee you that you'll do your case harm if you don't.

And if you want an example of what happens if you don't do it this way, read the Donegal judgement just gone, particularly the bit where the applicant had an argument with the Super, laid out how he intended to take the case to court and on what grounds, and the Super then turned about and submitted a carefully prepared statement cutting the applicant's case off at the knees because he didn't just shut up and walk calmly to his solicitor's office. And now we're all facing the prospect of paying for his mistake.

chem

Sparks wrote: »

Argue with a Garda anywhere outside a courtroom and you'll lose.
.

I agree with you Sparks. You might not lose there and then but down the road they will be only to happy stopping you for your broken break light, Tax disc, bald wheel and 1000 other little paper cuts.

BornToKill

'if you want an example of what happens if you don't do it this way, read the Donegal judgement just gone'

I fully agree with Sparks. Marching in with your mobile is a recipe for disaster. Here is the link to last weeks decision and it's well worth reading:

http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/2008/H195.html

Jonty

chem wrote: »

I agree with you Sparks. You might not lose there and then but down the road they will be only to happy stopping you for your broken break light, Tax disc, bald wheel and 1000 other little paper cuts.

+1

dermot_sheehan

Sparks wrote: »

• • The District Court is a court of local and summary jurisdiction. Meaning, this is it - what the DC judge says is the final decision unless he has a serious error in a point of law (and then you're off to the High Court, not the Circuit Court). It's a one-shot deal. Do it right the first time.

This in incorrect, there is what is termed a de novo appeal from the District Court to the local Circuit Court. A de novo appeal is a complete rehearing by the Circuit Judge. From the decision of the Circuit Court there is no appeal on the merits though it may be challenged by judicial review in the High Court and the Circuit Court judge can refer a question on a point of law to the Supreme Court directly (this is quite rare).

Grizzly 45

JEEZE Sparks!!!You DO belive in EXAGGERATING and TWISTING every damn thing I say dont you?????I Never said get into a shouting match !!!Would you just for deal with what is posted not add your twist to things???
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
Nor did I say that they are lying I used that as an example in dialouge.Thats what these things " " are for.READ the post before you reply.
I cant see what the problem is in disscussing somthing between three adults in a friendly manner to sort out a problem,without you trying to turn it that it will turn into a potential verbal Donnybrook.:mad:
Do you think we are all cretins that can just grunt"me want gun..Gun good...Garda...bad...me want gun!" I'm sure Mayhem and anyone else can handle a rational discussion,and know when it is going nowhere with Da man.

Also I dont know what Super you have.But for at least 95% of us it is an impossibility to get to talk to the man short of sending them solicitors letters.So saying glibly go talk to the Super flys in the face of reality for us.Obviously you must have some secret to get to see them at any given time,so please share it with us.

And stop batting on about the Donegal case.We have understood that point.From what we have from that case is from media and court reports.Have we all forgotten what kind of Gardai there are in Donegal???Does MAC BEARTY ring any bells???
Do we actually know the full and intimate details of this case????
Was anyone there when this incident happened???No! So we are surmising ,ASSuming and guessing what might have been said in that interview.Do we even know if the man had his solicitor present?????
NO!! So dont tell US Sparks how it went .As YOU were not there either!!

As for things that might happen down the road,like being caught for no tax or bald tyres.JEEZE Get Real folks!!If you are going to be so cowed by this dreadful prospect.I would suggest you dont dare apply for a firearm at all!
OR make sure your tyres are in order and tax is paid up.Which you are obliged to do anyway.It is also why we have the Garda Ombudsman,to report that kind of carry on of Garda intimidation.

chem

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As for things that might happen down the road,like being caught for no tax or bald tyres.JEEZE Get Real folks!!If you are going to be so cowed by this dreadful prospect.I would suggest you dont dare apply for a firearm at all!
OR make sure your tyres are in order and tax is paid up.Which you are obliged to do anyway.It is also why we have the Garda Ombudsman,to report that kind of carry on of Garda intimidation.

Grizzly. Thats why I posted what I did. Im all for the talking approch but my super is like yours.

CHEM: Hello ive sent my application in for a 9mm pistol and just wondering if it will be approved?

SUPER: your a member of a club and have an alarm fitted, right thats all in order and you have other licenced guns OK thats all good.

CHEM: So are you going to approve it?

SUPER:"if you what that, the only way you will get it is by taking me to court"

CHEM:"but can I just meet with you in person and talk about it?"

SUPER:Listen im not getting into a long drawn out conversation over this, Good day! CLICK

And thats that. My conversation with my super. Waiting 2 months for the letter of refusel.

Its a pitty that alot of people feel that some Gardi might try get you back in some way but that is the way it is. They are not using intimidation. Just inforcing the laws of the country on YOU! cleaver that isnt it;)

IRLConor

OK. Calm down. Relax. I'd say go outside and take a few deep breaths but that's probably where Sparks is right now.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As for things that might happen down the road,like being caught for no tax or bald tyres.JEEZE Get Real folks!!If you are going to be so cowed by this dreadful prospect.I would suggest you dont dare apply for a firearm at all!
OR make sure your tyres are in order and tax is paid up.Which you are obliged to do anyway.It is also why we have the Garda Ombudsman,to report that kind of carry on of Garda intimidation.

I think the implication of "Argue with a Garda anywhere outside a courtroom and you'll lose" was not that they'd keep hassling you about tax, insurance or bald tires but that any good will that you had with the Gardai would be gone. The very same good will that could be the difference between you getting or not getting a firearms certificate.

Grizzly 45

Back up a bit there Chem.
So you are saying if I read this right.You were refused a liscense because you had no tax or a bald tyre??? That should only apply AFTER you got the liscense..:)

Now there would be a prize example of bad customer service,and another Super for the courts,as from your example he has given no reason,delayed the refusal letter,or given you a reason for the refusal.
Plus if you win thats a black mark on his record.Thats making life miserable for you both.

Grizzly 45

Folks,Can U all please get it into your heads.I am not saying argue with the Gardai.I am saying DISCUSS this with a ace up your sleeve!What do we not understand here???

Any good will be negated with one Garda,because he is the one who screwed up your application.
Then he has a vendetta against you,and is risking then some severe disiplinary action at a later state,if you prove it.The Super doesnt care,if you go mad dog with the gun,he is coverd,because a court told him to review the situation.So he isnt going to be botherd about you having your tax out.Their attitude is;give the criminals enough rope and they will hang themselves for you.You are not a criminal,they know this,so it is not worth their while making life difficult for you.You won a legal point,they will live with it.