M3 railway bridge at Cannistown seems to be missing

Victor

One or two fields west there were a number of minor archaelogical finds

http://www.m3motorway.ie/Archaeology/Section3/

IIMII

It seems that Eurolink took on the contract for the M3 and agreed to design and build the M3 including ABP recommendations.

It seems that MCC have "reminded" Eurolink of this and in recent days Eurolink have consulted IÉ in order to redraw plans for a motorway underbridge (road over rail).

MCC claim that the site of the Dunboyne bridge is further advanced than Cannistown, though by looking at the photos that is most definitely not the case.

The implication being that a bridge was always going in, though that is clearly untrue. Why are they redesigning a bridge now when the tar for the M3 was on the melting pot? And why does it need redesigning?

Cannistown is almost ready to be tarmaced, Dunboyne is still a big empty field with no construction on the M3 itself (N3 has been rerouted but not near rail bridge site).



It will be interesting to see how they (IÉ / Eurolink) intend to raise the M3 when the new Cannistown local road bridge over the M3 (above) prohibits a high embankment to take the M3 over the railway.

Does this mean that the railway will have to be sunk below the M3?

They could always put in the motorway equivilant of a "humpback bridge"

Victor

IIMII wrote: »

Does this mean that the railway will have to be sunk below the M3?

Possibly. However there is a stream a few hundred metres south along the railway alignment that sets a certain minimum level.

IIMII

Deleted User wrote: »

They could always put in the motorway equivilant of a "humpback bridge"

I think you might be right. Or maybe a slight raising of the M3 coupled with a minimal cutting. But there isn't great headroom on that new Cannistown road bridge. I wouldn't be surprised if it is for the chop

Victor wrote: »

Possibly. However there is a stream a few hundred metres south along the railway alignment that sets a certain minimum level.

Yes, and the line is rising all of the time anyhow as it climbs from the Boyne valley up to Navan.

Well, they have said now that they are going to build a motorway underbridge as at Dunboyne - let's see how they do it, and if they can do it in a way that does not heap work/cost on IÉ if they ever get around to reopening the railway.

I still blame IÉ - how can they have carried out a "detailed Scoping Study" only six months ago where they must have consulted with the NRA/Eurolink and have ignored this missing bridge?

Sponge Bob

IIMII wrote: »

I think you might be right. Or maybe a slight raising of the M3 coupled with a minimal cutting. But there isn't great headroom on that new Cannistown road bridge. I wouldn't be surprised if it is for the chop

I still blame IÉ - how can they have carried out a "detailed Scoping Study" only six months ago where they must have consulted with the NRA/Eurolink and have ignored this missing bridge?

Only €2m wasted this way , instead of €20m, there's value for ya

IIMII

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Only €2m wasted this way , instead of €20m, there's value for ya

You know, that's a very good point.

DWCOMMUTER above mentioned the line of the new Cannistown road section crossing the allignment at grade now too, we may now end up seeing 3 new bridges.

The M3 rail bridge, a new cannistown/M3 road bridge and a new Cannistown/Rail overbridge.

Sponge Bob

Its all Noel Dempseys fault that Navan will NOT have a direct ( or indirect ) rail line to Dublin , just for the record.

The man is an arrogant clown ....but then again the 'victims' elected him so they deserve not to have a rail line in Navan for Darwinian reasons !

Elect a Pomeranian with fluent German out there next time lads . It may well work out better in the long term.

IIMII

This weeks Meath Chronicle

Dempsey offers reassurance on Govt’s commitment to Navan rail line
23/07/2008

Transport Minister Noel Dempsey has reaffirmed the Government’s commitment to building the Pace to Navan rail line, as a local Fianna Fail councillor warned that he would not support further zoning for housing in the town unless full transport infrastructure was put in place to support an increased population.
The local minister issued his commitment after Fianna Fail party colleague, Councillor Shane Cassells, sought an assurance on the future of the rail project in the context of the review of the Navan Development Plan which is underway and the climate of cost-cutting by the Government.
Cllr Cassells said that the railway must be more than 50 per cent funded by the Government. It was not acceptable to envisage funding it by “mass development”. In that case, the people of Navan would lose out, he claimed.
Navan Area Council discussed submissions on the draft development plan last week. Another Navan councillor, Jim Holloway of Fine Gael, maintained that provision by the Government for construction of an underpass at the intersection of the proposed rail line and the M3 at Cannistown, a necessary move to facilitate development of the line to Navan, would have indicated “serious intent” with regard to the project. However, no funds had been spent on this.
Cllr Holloway maintained that the status of the Dunboyne–Navan section of the line was fundamentally different from that of the section from Dublin to Pace. “The underpass for the railway at Dunboyne is being constructed and is visible for all to see,” said Cllr Holloway. “Nothing of this nature is planned or in place at Cannistown.”
Cllr Cassells, meanwhile, said it would be pointless for councillors and officials to invest huge time and work in reviewing the plan unless the existing commitment to build the Pace to Navan link was confirmed. Cllr Holloway described it as “imperative” that councilors knew that a railway would be delivered to Navan, and soon, in the context of drawing up the town’s new development plan.
Focusing on phase two of the Dublin to Navan rail project, the minister in a statement this week said it was anticipated that this phase would be “opened and in operation in 2015, in accordance with Transport 21”.
Mr Dempsey recalled that Iarnrod Eireann completed a scoping study in December 2007 in which it examined nine routes, concluding that the project was economically viable. “Two of these routes were found to be suitable and are now the subject of a study to produce a comparative business case, which will be submitted to the Department when it is completed,” he said.
The minister also noted a report that work on the M3 motorway had impacted on the proposed rail route. Mr Dempsey said it was a condition of the M3 planning permission that the path of the rail line to Navan would be allowed for and accomodated. “The NRA (National Roads Authority), like everybody else, will comply with its planning permission,” he said.
Construction work on the M3 would allow for the necessary work to facilitate the new Navan rail line, added the Transport Minister. “Work has not yet commenced on the relevant section of the motorway but, when it does, full account will be taken of the terms of its planning permission,” he said.
Voicing concern about the future of the rail line to Navan, Cllr Cassells referred to two Local Area Plans (LAPs), numbers one and two. It was expected that the station for the passenger rail service would be located in one of these. Neither has been adopted yet but these plans would be considered as part of the development plan review process.
Cllr Cassells, describing the rail line as the most crucial aspect of the next development plan, said it would define where future development would occur in the Trim Road area of Navan. “It will define levels of economic growth in the town,” he added.
Cllr Holloway, however, voiced scepticism about the Navan rail project. He said that the scoping study, completed late last year, had come down on the side of using the alignment of the old railway line to Navan, adding that the work currently underway on the M3 in the area of Cannistown made “no provision for an underpass or other mechanism for a proposed intersection of a railway with the motorway”.
He said he had raised this issue at council level last year and was informed of some “embankment” being in place, something he found “unconvincing” then. He said that the absence of a serious plan to address this issue suggested to him that any assurances from Minister Dempsey lacked credibility.
Cllr Holloway said that the only money spent to date had been the outlay on the scoping study. He said it was clear that no money had been spent or was to be spent now on building an underpass at the intersection of the proposed railway line and the M3 at Cannistown which was necessary to facilitate the delivery of the railway to Navan. “To have provided for this in some visible manner would have shown some serious intent,” said the FG councillor.
In response to a direct question on whether the Navan rail line would go ahead, the minister this week replied “yes”.
The first phase of the Navan rail line involves reopening 7.5km of railway line running off the Maynooth line, at Clonsilla, to the M3 interchange at Pace, near Dunboyne. An Bord Pleanála approved a Railway Order on 29th February 2008 - the equivalent of planning permission for a new rail scheme - to construct the 7.5 Kilometre line from Clonsilla on the existing Dublin-Maynooth commuter line to the M3 interchange at Pace, north of Dunboyne.

IIMII

[same edition as article above]
Meath Chronicle, 3rd July, 2008

Proposals to introduce parking charges at the new park and ride facility at the commuter railway station in Dunboyne has met with a furious local reaction.
Angry commuters point out that, between two M3 tolls and parking charges, commuters from north Meath hoping to avail of the new rail link from Dunboyne into the city could face charges of up to €50 a week, or €2,500 a year, making Meath one of the most expensive counties in which to live and commute from.
Last week, CIE confirmed that that it was introducing the charges at dozens of railway station in the commuter area, including Laytow,n and probably the proposed new facility at Dunboyne. Charges are already in place at Gormanston station in east Meath.
Deputy Damien English described the decision as grossly unfair and said it was nothing more than a stealth tax that would hurt commuter families who have no choice but to pay the fees to get to work.
“Not only do workers in commuter towns have to suffer from long commutes, but now they’ll have to fork out an additional €500 a year to CIE. In an economic situation where every penny counts and with inflation skyrocketing, the imposition of additional charges on the workers will do nothing to help struggling families or the struggling economy,” he said.
“This year, Iarnród Eireann received an operating subsidy of €196 million from taxpayers and, if CIE insists on introducing this charge on commuters, then the Minister for Transport should definitely cut their subsidy by whatever amount CIE makes off the backs of hard-pressed commuters. CIE should be focused on improving their efficiencies while reducing their operating costs instead of levying another stealth tax on commuters,” he added.
He said Transport Minister Noel Dempsey should either order CIE to drop this charge or cut the Iarnród Eireann subsidy.
The proposals were described as totally unacceptable by Senator Dominic Hannigan. “Plans to ask people to fork out another eight euro a week for car parking facilities that have been free for years cannot be allowed to proceed,” he said.
“I feel strongly that commuters should be able to claim tax back on these parking charges, just as they are able to do with their train fares. I raised this issue in the Seanad and was told that the Government would consider it, but I feel this change is imperative and needs to be introduced immediately.” He also said that the charges should be well regulated.
“Train fare increases require ministerial approval; however, these parking charges can be raised at will by Irish Rail and we need to avoid a situation where parking charges are at an inflation busting level with no end in sight. Regulation of these charges is the best answer,” he said.
“If these fees are to be introduced, it is very important that any revenue raised at local stations must be spent in local stations, not miles away from the people handing over the money.”
Cllr Joe Reilly said that in a situation where the Govt was trying to encourage people to use public transport, there should be no charges at the proposed park and ride facility at Pace until people got used to using it. He said that the parking charges would force people to use the roads and the combination of parking charges and tolls would make Meath one of the dearest counties to live and work in.
“We are trying to attract industries into Meath but all these charges are a disincentive,” he said.
Cllr Tommy Reilly said he didn’t believe that €2 a day was excessive for somebody travelling into the city for a day but felt there should be good reductions for regular commuters. Cllr Noel Leonard said it was important to keep costs down as much as possible in order to encourage more people to use trains.
He said that the new parking charges at Dunboyne, along with tolls and train fares, would leave commuting from the north of the county via the train at Dunboyne fairly expensive.

IIMII

Cllr Tommy Reilly said he didn’t believe that €2 a day was excessive for somebody travelling into the city for a day but felt there should be good reductions for regular commuters.

€2 parking + c.€3.00 tolls (return) + €5 (?) return train ticket

So about €10 to take the train, on top of you petrol costs etc?

Circa €13 Euros for Kells people?

No chance

DWCommuter

This has turned into absolute farce.

If the M3 is to be raised up onto an embankment to allow the railway underneath, then the new road flyover will have to be demolished. Dempseys statement has avoided the issue. Meath people need to demand real answers here.

The minister also noted a report that work on the M3 motorway had impacted on the proposed rail route. Mr Dempsey said it was a condition of the M3 planning permission that the path of the rail line to Navan would be allowed for and accomodated. “The NRA (National Roads Authority), like everybody else, will comply with its planning permission,” he said.

This is not happening at all.

Construction work on the M3 would allow for the necessary work to facilitate the new Navan rail line, added the Transport Minister. “Work has not yet commenced on the relevant section of the motorway but, when it does, full account will be taken of the terms of its planning permission,” he said.

Total baloney. Work is well underway. But what are the terms of its planning permission. Nobody in control appears to know or want to admit.

Cllr Holloway, however, voiced scepticism about the Navan rail project. He said that the scoping study, completed late last year, had come down on the side of using the alignment of the old railway line to Navan, adding that the work currently underway on the M3 in the area of Cannistown made “no provision for an underpass or other mechanism for a proposed intersection of a railway with the motorway”.

That councillor has it figured out anyway.

He said he had raised this issue at council level last year and was informed of some “embankment” being in place, something he found “unconvincing” then. He said that the absence of a serious plan to address this issue suggested to him that any assurances from Minister Dempsey lacked credibility.

Dempsey should be exposed. Many of us were lead to believe there was a motorway embankment planned in cannistown. Its certainly not there now. Im convinced that this issue could bring Dempsey down unless there's something we havent been told about the favoured route. As I said before the rail alignment is blocked by the M3 and the realigned local road. The only way across is by a massive viaduct. Did IE factor this into their scopping study I wonder?

Victor

I wonder did Dick Fearn know more than we know now?

DWCommuter

Victor wrote: »

I wonder did Dick Fearn know more than we know now?

IE don't actually want to build this line. Back in the late 90s, both themselves and MCC were happy to report that Dunboyne Navan wasn't feasible on the basis of population density between the towns. Their conclusion was Clonsilla - Dunboyne/Pace. T21 factored in the rest of the route because Dempsey kept making promises since the late 90s. The M3 has revealed the truth after both MCC and IE did their best to offset the sewer main fiasco. (ultimately unsuccessful, I might add.) A change of Government would have set it straight and killed it off on the grounds of cost. If the rotten track had been there, then work would be underway as we speak, like the WRC. For many years both MCC and IE have ignored the route in terms of alignment protection. The NRA got free rein. The Government havent a clue and Dempsey talks through his waste pipe. Navna will not happen. It was never going to happen. The M3 tolls would be seriously undermined by a railway. Thats why the P and R at Pace is located within the toll area. Grab all Fianna fail economics. Once the M3 is opened, demand for the railway will die amongst voters as joe public speeds towards the M50. FF knew this and gambled on it. Its over and has been over since before T21 was even announced. Am I the only commentator that knew this.

I will not be walking naked from Drumree to Navan palying a banjo. Can't wait to remind Barry Kenny of IE about our chat on the last word back in June 07.:D

Victor

Approximate layout of alignment and roads.

IIMII

Victor wrote: »

Approximate layout of alignment and roads.

Spot on. The Blackbull overpass 'gap' referred to above where the Trim road bridge is being build to cross the M3, has been filled. The Trim road/M3 embankment now completely severs the railway alignment.

RIP Navan railway project. They hadn't even the decency to pretend they had some intention to open it or even leave accomodation to open in for future generations

DWCommuter wrote: »

Am I the only commentator that knew this.

Ah, no we all knew that they weren't serious about it, like they aren't serious about half of Transport 21. You were just the only one that felt so strongly about the lies that you were prepared to expose your bare @rse, sorry I mean expose the bare facts on the ground relating it!

Sponge Bob

IIMII wrote: »

The Blackbull overpass 'gap' referred to above where the Trim road bridge is being build to cross the M3, has been filled. The Trim road/M3 embankment now completely severs the railway alignment.

Did ABP not stipulate that it should be otherwise ?? I thought they did !

IIMII

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Did ABP not stipulate that it should be otherwise ?? I thought they did !

Not at this site or any of the other spots where the alignment is crossed by local/national/new feeder roads. Their order related only to where the M3 itself severed the allignment and the site of the sizable intersection at Pace (1km south of the Trim road site).

After these two points, the Trim road site is the most threatening encrosion of the M3 projject as a circa 30 foot high embankment is being built (rather is built as of this week) across the alignment to raise the Trim-Dublin road over the M3.

Whilst the M3 obviously travels beneath the Dublin-Trim road at this point, the thoughful people at Meath County Council didn't see fit to similarly accomodate the railway at this point even though the alignment is only 15-20 feet away from the M3

Getting the bridges at Pace and Cannistown were the two most important victories. The third major point was the Trim road, and contigency at every other point where the M3 project encroached upon the alignment should have been designed to accomodate reopening of the line. That is if MCC and the Department of Transport were serious about reopening the line in an efficient, cost effective manner that didn't involve having to close and rebuild sections in the future of the soon to be built M3 project

It didn't and that's why there will never be a Dunshaughlin town centre station if by some miracle the line is ever reopened in the face of MCC attempts to kill it.

Sponge Bob

I would inform ABP forthwith that the Rail Alignment is being interfered with by the M3 construction consortium and to ask them to refer to the evidence of a Ms Joyce who told the ABP inspector that the preservation of the alignment was a design constraint ...IE an absolute .

Ms Joyce represented MCC at the M3 enquiry over the section around the Trim Road , MCC are in contempt of ABP ( technically in contempt of the high Court ) by not acting now to preserve that alignment they swore to the Board they would.

IIMII

Problem is:

'Ms Joyce replied their brief was not to prevent it’s [railway’s] reopening and outlined how they had accommodated the rail corridor, including a proposed crossing of the rail line by the R125 Trim road where they had provided sufficient clearance for the railway to go under the Trim road in the future.’'

http://www.pleanala.ie/documents/reports/MS2/RMS2004-PART2.pdf

It only refers to clearance, not a bridge. It's a solid embankment at this point

Xadtek

IIMII wrote: »

Problem is:

'Ms Joyce replied their brief was not to prevent it’s [railway’s] reopening and outlined how they had accommodated the rail corridor, including a proposed crossing of the rail line by the R125 Trim road where they had provided sufficient clearance for the railway to go under the Trim road in the future.’'

http://www.pleanala.ie/documents/reports/MS2/RMS2004-PART2.pdf

It only refers to clearance, not a bridge. It's a solid embankment at this point

Maybe I'm missing something, but how can there be "clearance" for the railway if there's a 30 foot high solid embankment in its path? Surely "clearance" means there must be a gap or passage of some kind in place?

Still, from looking through that document, there doesn't actually appear to be any reference to the Trim road (R154) at this point. Ms Joyce is actually talking about the new R125 link road near Drumree.

from page 9 of the document:

She said the new R125 Trim Road started at the Dunshaughlin Interchange and ran westwards to the south of the existing R125 to join with the R154 at Merrywell and it crossed over the disused Clonsilla to Navan rail line at Drumree where clearance was allowed for a future re-opening of the rail line, the total length of the new R125 being 2.26 kms.

It would be interesting to see what's going on at that point. Is the construction of that link road providing the necessary clearance?

(I know there's a proposal to pull the rail line right up alongside the M3 at this point so as to bring it as near as possible to Dunshaughlin without actually crossing the M3 but presumably the link road should still be built according to the design outlined by Ms Joyce.)

It seems strange that provision is made for the railway in the design of the R125 link road yet a solid embankment is placed in its way on the R154 Trim road at Blackbull.

from page 44:

Mr. O'Donnell asked what was the difference in level between the existing and new roads and when Ms Joyce said the two were at much the same level, he asked why the road could not have been moved in the other direction where there were no houses. Ms Joyce replied that this had already been explained in a letter to Mrs. Peters and said the land there was the disused railway corridor of the Clonsilla to Navan Railway line and they had to keep that clear under the SPGs

I can't figure out how that statement squares with blocking it just a short distance away at the R154 embankment.

Did the Scoping Study have anything to say about this? I mean how could they arrive at a figure for the cost of the project without taking into account the costs of dealing with these obstructions? Did they take a look at the route at all?

armada104

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm having trouble following this. Could someone please explain to me why ABP aren't in a position to act against the NRA if they haven't built what they were supposed to?

DWCommuter

armada104 wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm having trouble following this. Could someone please explain to me why ABP aren't in a position to act against the NRA if they haven't built what they were supposed to?

Because nobody is actually sure or willing to accurately confirm what was supposed to be built in order to protect the rail alignment at cannistown. Personally, I was not aware of the interference caused by the realigned trim road at black bull, until I saw construction a few weeks back. It appears that ABP weren't aware of it either at any stage of planning the M3. I can find no reference to it. IE would have known and the M3 design team would have known, but all stayed quite. All that remains now is to drag Dempsey and MCC out into the public domain and explain to the people why a railway to Navan will never be built along that route. Then put Navan - Drogheda - Dublin, back in the hunt years later than it could have happened.

Sponge Bob

Good luck with getting Noel Dempsey to ever tell the truth ....or even an approximation to the truth .

Maybe some clear concise Dáil questions need to be fed to a representative from Cavan/Monaghan/Meath for submission to Dempsey .

Judgement Day

Am I missing something here? Has the issue of this bridge been covered on RTE television or the National newspapers and, if not, why not? Only last night there was yet another RTE tv report about the motorway and some nonsense about a Heritage Council scheme - not a mention of the missing bridge! The news this weather is so boring (Lisbon, Global Warming and Barrack....Obama etc) that I try to miss it whenever possible, so I may have missed all the coverage this scandal has had. Anybody know?

Victor

Xadtek wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something, but how can there be "clearance" for the railway if there's a 30 foot high solid embankment in its path? Surely "clearance" means there must be a gap or passage of some kind in place?

In such a context, it could be argued that clearance is dimensional clearance only.

IIMII

Daire O'Brien, Irish IndependentThursday July 24 2008

I would strongly advise all good citizens to be vigilant for attempts to cut back on infrastructure spending and, more heinously, agreed infrastructure projects.
Strategic controlled infrastructure spending is the fiscal equivalent of prudent long-term investment with the added bonus of priming the economy now.
Long-term thinking must not fall victim to political expediency.
Social welfare cuts or public sector pay freezes have a direct negative correlation to the number of Xs put next to Government candidates in ballot boxes.
The electoral ramifications of cutting -- or deliberately slowcoaching -- public infrastructure projects is a vaguer science.
After all, while social welfare and public service cuts stoke anger in all constituencies, shelving expensive infrastructure spreads the pain over a thin geographical (electoral) base.
Don't forget this is no longer Bertieland.
While we might think that the same guys (sorry Mary) have been in charge forever, in the eyes of the current leadership, they have only just begun and, it's fair to assume, everything is on the table including the much vaunted reopening of the Navan rail corridor.
According to the Department of Transport, contracts for the first 7.5km section of the line are to be issued in September.
Hmmm. Many are not so sure. Keen railway watchers point to the absence of any work on the crucial Cannistown Railway Bridge section of the M3.
The M3 is steaming ahead, but without any sign of life at the aforementioned bridge.
If the bridge ain't being built it stands to reason that the rail line ain't being built either.
Surely, as a Meath man, the Transport Minister couldn't let this flagship project be mothballed.
Any news Noel?

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/this-is-no-time-to-apply-the-brakes-on-spending-for-infrastructure-plans-1439127.html

Sponge Bob

IIMII wrote: »

I would strongly advise all good citizens to be vigilant for attempts to cut back on infrastructure spending and, more heinously, agreed infrastructure projects.

Agreed by whom ?? The Navan rail line is a figment of Dempsey's imagination and now...by cruel fate....Cowen gave him a simple task.

Either

1. He lies blusters yahoos and obfuscates until he is moved out of Transport just like Frank Fahey does on the N18 and N17 and N6 Galway Bypass ....although Frank has just started to admit the WRC project will go no further.

2. He provides leadership by burying the project , apologises to the people of Meath for misleading them for years, and admits the project is a dead duck in the current fiscal climate . It will not be delivered by 2025 , never mind 2015 .

Politicians of Dempseys calibre will always follow option 1, Cowen notes this and therefore Dempsey will never be promoted while Cowen is Taoiseach.

IIMII

Sponge Bob

Can anyone confirm whether there is any truth in the rumour that Dempsey personally bought the meathontrack.com domain last month ????

Victor

It seems to be held by a proxy at the moment http://www.who.is/whois-com/ip-address/meathontrack.com/

IIMII

It's only worth having a campaign if it can be won. This generation of politicians have no interest in any public transport projects, and the only party (the Greens) that did have a genuine interest in public transport in Meath went from gamekeepers to poachers, trading their ideals on transport for the environment portfolio.

No point flogging a dead horse either, unless you are prepared to nag the [EMAIL="w@nkers"]w@nkers[/EMAIL] until 2015 and still end up with nothing to show for it - there is no intention on the part of the government to reopen this line at present. The best anyone with an interest in public transport and grid-lock solutions can hope for is that the alignment will be preserved for some future date.

Amd even that modest goal seems unattainable these days

IIMII

Well, there has been no change to the design of the M3 at Cannistown, so as far as I can tell they have just gone against the ABP condition, probably eluding it by strong-arming IÉ.

It's incredible that they would do this, between this and their pipes they have made this project too expensive to build.

w-anchors

Nostradamus

Judgement Day wrote: »

Am I missing something here? Has the issue of this bridge been covered on RTE television or the National newspapers and, if not, why not?

because RTE is a licence payer funded propganda machine for the Irish political and social elite. We are forced to pay them a tax so they can fill us with bull**** which functions as a smokescreen against the real crap being pulled. The likes of Charlie Bird, George 'bi-polar bear' Lee work for political parties, and the big business/trade union cabal. They are employed to tell us arse. Same for all the other media.

Do you really think that RTE's borderline psychotic obsession with the National Pay Deal really amounts to anything tagible or meaninful. RTE is there to HIDE the truth from the people - give them meaningless issues and nobody will notice the real stuff going on. The Navan Rail story is being smothered in non-issues like the National Pay Deal to keep the Irish people in the dark of what really goes on in this country and it makes the worst Haughey stuff look like child's play.

There is no more importance to the National Pay Deal as there is to Brirtnay's Spears hair comeback. They represent the same agenda. Keep the masses worried about nothing and the politicians, big business types and trade union colaborators are it the clear. Global Warming same thing, all made up crap and it goes on and on and on so we ignore the real issues. Gore Vidal has a great quote about polticians being genetically terrified of democracy so they created the media and bogus taxation to keep it at bay.

next time you pay your TV licience think about that.

Nostradamus

IIMII wrote: »

and the only party (the Greens) that did have a genuine interest in public transport in Meath went from gamekeepers to poachers, trading their ideals on transport for the environment portfolio.

Greens, Labour Fianna Fail, Fine Gael all the same. It's only their lies which separates them. Once in the office that we get to see them for what they are and the media is there to tell us that "the Greens sold out" which is not true at all as they are just being what they always were without the lies.

All a big game. Navan needs a mouthy catholic cleric to swing his roasary beads over his head and the Freemasons in Kildare Street will start writing cheques.

Xadtek

I'd pretty much concluded the Navan rail line was dead on the basis of the evidence presented in this thread but then I spotted this article from this week's Meath Chronicle.

http://www.meathchronicle.ie/articles/1/31141/

Plan unveiled to re-route rail line to Dunshaughlin
By Paul Murphy

A radical plan which would see part of the restored rail line between Navan and Dublin located east rather than west of the M3 motorway, taking in the towns of Dunshaughlin and Ratoath, was revealed this week by a consortium of developers and landowners.
Consultants for Iarnrod Eireann and Meath County Council have already carried out a scoping study on a possible route for the rail line, which produced nine options. These have been reduced to two options, one of which (Irish Rail Route 3) takes a direction from Pace, then proceeds directly west of Dunshaughlin before moving on to Kilmessan.
Under this option, the railway station serving Dunshaughlin would be located about a kilometre and a half from the town, and the station would be separated from the town by the Dunshaughlin interchange on the M3.
The proposers of an alternative option – developers Duignan & McCarthy, J Stanley, JH Real Estate (Harris), John O’Meara, Menolly Homes, PJ Molloy, and WJ Murphy – are suggesting a rail route veering right from the Pace-Black Bull area, proceeding east of Dunshaughlin (with a rail station within walking distance of the town), before crossing a bridge over the M3 and then rejoining the westerly route on towards Kilmessan.
Revealing the report on the proposal for an easterly option, consultants Clifton Scannell Emerson Associates, Fitzpatrick & Associates and Tiros Resources, said that the route they proposed would provide a much better rail service to Dunshaughlin, attract an extra 700-900 passengers per day, generate significantly higher revenues for the rail operator, and attract substantial additional section 49 supplementary contributions (estimated at an extra €9.5 million).
They also say that the plan would provide significant environmental benefits, including cuts in greenhouse gases by the increased use of public transport; provide for the orderly development of Dunshaughlin with a coherent urban structure based on the existing built up area, and avoid motorway severance by facilitating the provision of appropriately-located land to enable Dunshaughlin to develop in a sustainable way.
Local county councillor Brian Fitzgerald said this week that he regarded the proposal as “viable, especially from the point of view of the development of Dunshaughlin and Ratoath”.
He added: “Under the proposals for the route suggested by Iarnrod Eireann, a station for Dunshaughlin would be located west of the Dunshaughlin interchange. To attempt to bring potential rail passengers into a situation where they would have to negotiate a vast interchange would be foolish, in my view.”
Town planning consultant Douglas Hyde, acting for the group, told the Meath Chronicle this week that the rail route proposed for east of Dunshaughlin was the most sensible and viable one which would be far more advantageous to the development of the county, and especially Dunshaughlin and Ratoath, than the route proposed for the west of Dunshaughlin. This particular modification of Irish Rail Route 4 would see an overall reduction in costs of €17 million.
“This reduction in capital costs, together with the increased passenger patronage and greater supplementary development contributions, estimated at an additional €20 million and €9.5 million, respectively, means that Route 4 is comparable to Route 3 in terms of overall cost,” he said.
He added that the engineering advantages would be immense, including avoiding the need to bridge the four-lane parallel link road that runs between Pace and Black Bull; using the under-bridge on the Trim Road at Black Bull (now under construction), and avoiding the need to bridge across the Ratoath Road at Black Bull, which would require property acquisition, including houses.
It would also avoid the need to reposition the Dunsany roundabout, avoid the need to acquire dwellings at approaches to the north M3 bridge, eliminate the need for two road bridges at the approaches to the northern M3 bridge, and require shorter bridge crossing of the motorway.

There are some very influential developers involved in that proposal. If they're putting forward plans for the line then it's hard to square that with the idea that the whole project is being secretly sabotaged. The route proposed rejoins the old alignment after Dunshaughlin and continues along through where the Cannistown bridge is supposed to be. So I don't know what's going on but I wouldn't really have expected to see anything like this after reading about the situation with the bridge.

IIMII wrote: »

Well, there has been no change to the design of the M3 at Cannistown, so as far as I can tell they have just gone against the ABP condition, probably eluding it by strong-arming IÉ.

It's incredible that they would do this, between this and their pipes they have made this project too expensive to build.

w-anchors

What actually has happened? Has construction continued exactly as if nothing has changed? Have they it tarmaced now?

I just can't figure out what's going on if these guys are backing the project (even if they're looking for a deviation to the east of Dunshaughlin as part of the plan).

DWCommuter

Xadtek wrote: »

I'd pretty much concluded the Navan rail line was dead on the basis of the evidence presented in this thread but then I spotted this article from this week's Meath Chronicle.

http://www.meathchronicle.ie/articles/1/31141/



There are some very influential developers involved in that proposal. If they're putting forward plans for the line then it's hard to square that with the idea that the whole project is being secretly sabotaged. The route proposed rejoins the old alignment after Dunshaughlin and continues along through where the Cannistown bridge is supposed to be. So I don't know what's going on but I wouldn't really have expected to see anything like this after reading about the situation with the bridge.



What actually has happened? Has construction continued exactly as if nothing has changed? Have they it tarmaced now?

I just can't figure out what's going on if these guys are backing the project (even if they're looking for a deviation to the east of Dunshaughlin as part of the plan).

My poor innocent friend, my heart goes out to you and I'm not been sarcastic or disrespectful. Personally, Ive been hanging around the Navan railway issue for about 10 years now. Its only since 2003 that I became publically vocal about it, thanks mainly to the internet (which also brings along dipsticks, knowalls and twats in general - not directed at anyone here or in particular) but still manages to provide an outlet for informed opinion.
The article you refer to is nothing more than baloney, being spouted by developers, who's agenda is based way beyond reality in the short to medium term and perhaps in closed political ranks longer term. (way beyond 2015) The Navan line (realistically) had to follow the original alignment, which is now decimated by the M3. (FACT) This was the short term and ultimate solution. These developers neither care or actually understand what the Navan rail alignment is, could be or what engineering requirements need to be met in terms of cost etc. They see it as part of a T21 list and decide to use it as a means to decorate their proposals to build in certain areas. THEY DON'T CARE! There are many smaller examples of this around the GDA. Think bandwagon.

The Navan rail line is not happening because there was never any political intention within Meath CC or Government. Both organisations strung people along with proposals and intentions that they knew (deep down) they could not meet. A sewer main was laid on the alignment and they said it wouldn't be a problem. (But it displayed a lack of concern to the project) Later it would be revealed that this sewer main would have to be moved. More recently and perhaps more damning the M3 has torn the heart out of the preferred and recommended alignment (according to IE) at two particular points and in defiance to an An Bord Pleanala ruling at one area. And still the state stays quiet. Im a part time journo with a few mickey mouse free sheets. I tried to give the issue some wings at a national level, but got no takers. But I'll keep posting and writing about it as long as it takes. Some day people will realise what a bunch of conmen our Government is. It might take the cancellation or deferral of bigger projects to make them see sense, but they'll realise it eventually. As for a priest/cleric or whatever being spouted as a positive method to get the Navan line going, well thats just ****e talk that works in certain political quarters. Jesus Christ himself couldn't have got the Navan line built as the bottom line is all about politics and the politics of Navan is not the same as the politics of Mayo, Galway and Clare.

trellheim

Looks like fait accompli then, what's left ?

Xadtek

DWCommuter wrote: »

My poor innocent friend, my heart goes out to you and I'm not been sarcastic or disrespectful. Personally, Ive been hanging around the Navan railway issue for about 10 years now. Its only since 2003 that I became publically vocal about it, thanks mainly to the internet (which also brings along dipsticks, knowalls and twats in general - not directed at anyone here or in particular) but still manages to provide an outlet for informed opinion.
The article you refer to is nothing more than baloney, being spouted by developers, who's agenda is based way beyond reality in the short to medium term and perhaps in closed political ranks longer term. (way beyond 2015) The Navan line (realistically) had to follow the original alignment, which is now decimated by the M3. (FACT) This was the short term and ultimate solution. These developers neither care or actually understand what the Navan rail alignment is, could be or what engineering requirements need to be met in terms of cost etc. They see it as part of a T21 list and decide to use it as a means to decorate their proposals to build in certain areas. THEY DON'T CARE! There are many smaller examples of this around the GDA. Think bandwagon.

Ah, it's just that cost or engineering requirements can sometimes appear trivial if the right players want things to happen. I say this as one of those names mentioned owns much of the land around the Blundelstown interchange (and it didn't need to be built, nor the circuitous and more costly route the M3 takes through the Tara-Skryne valley to get there). Another has a 50% stake in the Hansfield SDZ and it has been suggested that one of the principal reasons the Clonsilla-Pace line is being built was to allow that development to go ahead. I believe another ABP ruling was involved there, one that was clearly a bit more 'watertight' than that relating to Cannistown. One can perhaps be forgiven for thinking that the right developer backing could make the impossible possible.

The increasingly bizarre nature of the whole Navan rail line issue makes it very hard to think clearly and figure out what's going on at times. It is quite surreal to see this type of thing being proposed and reported while at the same time an ABP ruling is being completely ignored, the alignment severed and destroyed and not reported on at all by the same paper. I guess I briefly succumbed to the idea that the last bit couldn't possibly be true for the first part to be taken so seriously and reported at all. Surely such a bizarre situation cannot be sustained for much longer and someone in authority will have to tell it straight sooner rather than later.

Stroke Politics

This deviation to the other side of Dunshaughlin is only kite-flying. Big House & Co has no interest in assisting public transport, this is just a rusze being thrown in to obfuscate, delay and ultimately destroy the Navan-Clonsilla rail route.

All development in Navan and environs is developer-led, and they do not like competition, so we can forget about a train that will complete for business with The Sacred Motorway.....

Xadtek

Ok, thanks for that. I'm surprised they felt the need to even bother with such a ruse. It's not like the Navan line needs any more obfuscation or delaying to kill it. There's surely enough nails in the coffin already if any plan for a Cannistown bridge is now gone. I guess they must feel it advances some rezoning plan for Dunshaughlin, although as far as I'm aware much of that land is already rezoned or likely to be in the future anyway.

Thing that gets me as mentioned earlier is the complete lack of interest in exploring this story by either the local or national media. An ABP ruling is ignored without any satisfactory explanation from IE and no one feels it's worth highlighting. I mean the Navan line is in the NDP, Transport 21 and the Program for Government, the Minister for Transport is from the constituency yet no one feels there's a story there.

Stroke Politics

Xadtek wrote: »

Ok, thanks for that. I'm surprised they felt the need to even bother with such a ruse. It's not like the Navan line needs any more obfuscation or delaying to kill it. There's surely enough nails in the coffin already if any plan for a Cannistown bridge is now gone. I guess they must feel it advances some rezoning plan for Dunshaughlin, although as far as I'm aware much of that land is already rezoned or likely to be in the future anyway.

Thing that gets me as mentioned earlier is the complete lack of interest in exploring this story by either the local or national media. An ABP ruling is ignored without any satisfactory explanation from IE and no one feels it's worth highlighting. I mean the Navan line is in the NDP, Transport 21 and the Program for Government, the Minister for Transport is from the constituency yet no one feels there's a story there.

The only story here is that Dempsey hasn't had the cajones to come out and admit that the railway was never going to, and will never go ahead. FF has a secure 2 seats here until infinity. Bruton was a south Meath representative, which gave the two big developers & their cohorts free reign in the Navan Electoral Area. They've even spiked the LAP's for Navan preventing the development of parks to ensure that they have control over the whole towns development. If there was a credible alternative at all, or if FF's 2 Meath West seats came under threat there might be some movement on it, but it won't happen in our lifetime.....

Xadtek

Is it just that I'm so close to it that the rot seems especially bad in Meath or are things just as bad throughout the rest of the country? I mean Meath just really seems to take this kind of stuff to another level. There's no end to it and the stink rises from just about every project you look at once you start to do the slightest bit of digging.

Today Transparency International released its annual Corruption Perceptions Index in which it stated Ireland was the 16th least corrupt country in the world out of 180 countries. I know things are bad in the Zimbabwe's and Turkmenistans of this world, but I really shudder to think just how bad things are there if we're the 16th least corrupt and this is the carry on throughout the country.

lostexpectation

Stroke Politics wrote: »

This deviation to the other side of Dunshaughlin is only kite-flying. Big House & Co has no interest in assisting public transport, this is just a rusze being thrown in to obfuscate, delay and ultimately destroy the Navan-Clonsilla rail route.

All development in Navan and environs is developer-led, and they do not like competition, so we can forget about a train that will complete for business with The Sacred Motorway.....

so having both rail and motorway isn't a benefit to a development?

Stroke Politics

lostexpectation wrote: »

so having both rail and motorway isn't a benefit to a development?

Having both is a development on the present situation. But having both does not benefit developers enough to sate their greed, hence the kite-flying exercise to delay/frustrat a rail alternative and give people meaningful choice......

lostexpectation

there are probably multiple developers as you said, i still don't know why its not a genuine benefit to the these housing developers to have both rail and motorway, kite flying exercise or no.

Stroke Politics

lostexpectation wrote: »

there are probably multiple developers as you said, i still don't know why its not a genuine benefit to the these housing developers to have both rail and motorway, kite flying exercise or no.

Because the original railway alignment, upon which the re-opened line was to be built on, does not go through their land. Simple as........

spacetweek

Xadtek wrote: »

Thing that gets me as mentioned earlier is the complete lack of interest in exploring this story by either the local or national media. An ABP ruling is ignored without any satisfactory explanation from IE and no one feels it's worth highlighting. I mean the Navan line is in the NDP, Transport 21 and the Program for Government, the Minister for Transport is from the constituency yet no one feels there's a story there.

The lack of interest is probably due to the fact that everything on this thread is just speculation: there's been no official confirmation that any alignment has been severed and after the gov repeating mantra-like that they were gonna reopen Navan, they can't suddenly go "Oh sorry, we built a motorway in the way.". This would be disadvantageous to their political careers and it's all about the political career with these guys.

Xadtek

spacetweek wrote: »

The lack of interest is probably due to the fact that everything on this thread is just speculation:

To be fair, I think there's more than just speculation in this thread. There are several photographs and maps showing that something is clearly amiss.

spacetweek wrote: »

there's been no official confirmation that any alignment has been severed and after the gov repeating mantra-like that they were gonna reopen Navan, they can't suddenly go "Oh sorry, we built a motorway in the way.". This would be disadvantageous to their political careers and it's all about the political career with these guys.

I know the government can't suddenly go and admit that. I wouldn't expect them to. But surely some journalist or opposition politican somewhere can see an opportunity for a story or a chance to have a blast at the government. There is An Bord Pleanala ruling that is being flouted. You'd think that might have some significance, I guess not anymore...

IIMII

spacetweek wrote: »

there's been no official confirmation that any alignment has been severed

Yeah, and that's why they have started laying the tarmac there. Take a drive up, you can't miss it. At what point does denial stop and the truth in front of your eyes become undeniable? There is no bridge, and no planning permission has ever been applied for for an alternatively designed bridge.

So if the haven't built the bridge in the plans, and they haven't applied for permission to build a different one, then no bridge is being built...

In relation to the deviation, I think there is a simple answer to the sudden interest. The M3 tolls will effect already weak house sales and to flog houses you need positive selling points. The only one on the horizon is the railway

Dunshaughlin has been frozen for development under planning guidelines due to lack of services. Developers build and and Estate agents sell. Arguably the sales based on the M3 coming will wither when the reality of the toll becomes known and the only shot in the arm for residential development is the railway

Remember each time the railway is announced, there is a flurry of planning requests etc for places like Kilmessan

This isn't about the railway, it's about house sales. But who cares if it is built, which isn't the case at the moment.

I wouldn't be surprised if the government goes for it, as the developer proposal is to reroute from Pace all the way to the north of Dunshaughlin. Which means that the government would be off the hook from any delays being as a result of the M3 and new roads for this section

90% of the Navan railway line north of Dunboyne had been compromised in the past 3 years - between the M3 at Cannistown, the Dunshaughlin Sewerage Scheme from Drumree to Kilmessan, and the M3 road links from Dunshaughlin to Dunboyne, huge obstacles have been added. That's a impeded stretch running from South Navan to North Dunboyne, approximately 17 miles of the 18.5 miles of the line.

The undeniable reality is that history suggests that this line is not for reopening under this or any other alternative government.