Trap to monitor Eircom League

estebancambias

IRELAND boss Giovanni Trapattoni has promised to keep an eye on the performance of Irish clubs competing in European competition this summer.

Last year, eircom League teams played 12 times in Europe but the then senior team boss Steve Staunton failed to attend a single one on his way to a failed Euro 2008 qualification campaign.

But Trapattoni, speaking before a fundraising event for Waterford United yesterday, says that he and his coaching staff will track the European fortunes of Bohemians (Intertoto Cup), Drogheda United (Champions League), Cork City and St Patrick's Athletic (UEFA Cup).

"We plan to go and watch the Irish clubs play in European competition," the Italian legend said.

"We had spoken about it before but the fixtures were only announced on Tuesday, now that we know where the clubs will be playing, I plan to have the games watched.

"Between myself, Marco Tardelli and Liam Brady we will watch those Irish clubs play."

Bohs play Latvian side FK Riga in the second round of the Intertoto Cup next weekend, while St Pats also face Latvian opposition (JFK Olimps) in the UEFA Cup.

So, what do you make of this? Are any of them capable of making the step up?
I think the most likely player to be called up will be Dave Mooney, but this will probably just be a PR move to show that they are considering EL players and they can't ignore the top goalscorer obviously. I personally think he is good enough and believe he should start up front with Keane against Norway.

It would be cool if Trap spotted something in a player that nobody thinks that highly of, but he notices his movement or intelligence on the pitch. Sort of the way he has with Andy Keogh.

Can you see any of the players in EL improving the side? If so what players would be most likely in line?

Is it Brian Murphy or Barry Murphy who many believe should have been called up for the training camp?

_blank_

estebancambias wrote: »

Can you see any of the players in EL improving the side?

No.

estebancambias

Dave Mooney does not have the potential to be better than Doyle? I know(well think) that Doyle played on the wing for Cork but Mooney has done great last season and at the first half of this one.

Fratton Fred

I think it would be fair to say that English league clubs watch the EL pretty closely, so the players that are capable of making the step up do so pretty quickly.

That said, the last few performances under Staunton, 11 players from the EL would at least have had a bit more passion and desire....

sharkDawg

estebancambias wrote: »

Dave Mooney does not have the potential to be better than Doyle?

I presume you ment, does Dave Mooney not have the potential to be better than Doyle? I think he does, and he should definately be in the next Irish squad. We'll never know if he's good enough unless we give the guy a chance.

Dave!

Is he having trouble sleeping?

:pac:

estebancambias

I wouldn' pay any attention to Des, you don't learn much about the EL when your team is playing Sporting Fingal and the likes.

Harsh but so very true.

estebancambias

Dave! wrote: »

Is he having trouble sleeping?

:pac:

That went over my head....:)

Pure Cork

Off the top of my head:
Dave Mooney
Mark Quigley
Keith Fahey
Joe Gamble
Colin Healy
Brian Murphy
Barry Murphy

All those players should be considered for the squad. There's no point in picking token LOI players, but those I mentioned above are class acts. There are a couple more, but they're involved in Ireland's underage teams.

Kevin Doyle started his career at Cork City on the right wing, but it wasn't long until he was starting up front.

If some of those players moved across the water tomorrow they'd be starting for Ireland. Players seem to magically improve overnight when they fly over the Irish Sea. The top teams in the LOI are of a similar standard to the Championship in England. Unless they move to the Premier League, it's not a step up. The Championship can pay better.

Dave Mooney is in great form for Cork City, and it will be a disgrace if he isn't in the squad for the Norway friendly.

It remains to be seen whether this is just pointless PR from the FAI, or if they're serious.

Regardless of where a player plays his football, I'd like to see Trap pick players who really want to play for Ireland, rather than clowns like Keiren Westwood who just want to use international football to further their club career.

_blank_

estebancambias wrote: »

I wouldn' pay any attention to Des, you don't learn much about the EL when your team is playing Sporting Fingal and the likes.

Harsh but so very true.

:eek:

You learn even less about when you don't watch any of it at all.

OhNoYouDidn't

There are 7 full Irish caps in the LoI on top of the dozens of underage internationals.

Gamble
Farrelly
Healy
O'Cearruill
Moore (still there?)
Byrne
Crowe

Of that Gamble, Healy and O'Cearruil still have something to offer IMO. Also the two Murphy's in goals are clearly better than some of the squad keepers picked recently.

Mooney is an interesting one. One of the best products of the Rovers acadamy in ages, he is showing more promise and scoring more goals than Doyle or O'Donavan did at his age.

Also Jason Gavin might be worth a look

We have a convergence here of a strong LoI and a weak Irish squad. I don't think many would make the first XI, but in terms of depth, Trap is dead right to trawl the domestic game.

DSB

Hard to say for sure if any will make the grade but theres definitely potential among them. Similar to taking any unknown player into the squad, aside from the obvious talents. Can go either way and a good few of the players listed previously definitely deserve a few friendlys to try prove themselves.

Kildarered

No player in the eircom league is good enough at the moment. We are trying to improve our international team and the standard of football in the eircom league is way off the mark to even be considered.

Pure Cork

Kildarered wrote: »

No player in the eircom league is good enough at the moment. We are trying to improve our international team and the standard of football in the eircom league is way off the mark to even be considered.

Have you ever seen any of the above players in action?

Kildarered

Pure Cork wrote: »

Have you ever seen any of the above players in action?

Yes, and they are all decent players in the eircom league. The step up to international level is massive. Most of the players in the international set up at the minute are playing in the premier league and most of them are not good enough. Dont think we will see any eircom player playing at international level any time soon and rightly so.

Pure Cork

Kildarered wrote: »

Yes, and they are all decent players in the eircom league. The step up to international level is massive. Most of the players in the international set up at the minute are playing in the premier league and most of them are not good enough. Dont think we will see any eircom player playing at international level any time soon and rightly so.

If Dave Mooney flew across the Irish Seas tomorrow he'd be starting for Ireland, or at very least coming off the bench. He's scored 11 goals in 6 games, and four braces in the last 4 games. What more does he have to do to earn a call-up? He is top class.

I think there is a myth about the quality of international football. Success in international football is achieved with good players playing well as a team. The reason the Irish national team has failed is down to bad management and not playing well as a team. This will be sorted out by Trapattoni.

There shouldn't be any token LOI players included in the squad, but there are a good few who are more than capable of representing Ireland.

SantryRed

Kildarered wrote: »

Yes, and they are all decent players in the eircom league. The step up to international level is massive. Most of the players in the international set up at the minute are playing in the premier league and most of them are not good enough. Dont think we will see any eircom player playing at international level any time soon and rightly so.

What about Kieran Westwood? He was called up to the last squad:rolleyes:

Brian Murphy is as least as good as this player. Oh, Brian Murphy actually wants to play for Ireland to represent his country too.

Kildarered

Pure Cork wrote: »

If Dave Mooney flew across the Irish Seas tomorrow he'd be starting for Ireland, or at very least coming off the bench. He's scored 11 goals in 6 games, and four braces in the last 4 games. What more does he have to do to earn a call-up? He is top class.

I think there is a myth about the quality of international football. Success in international football is achieved with good players playing well as a team. The reason the Irish national team has failed is down to bad management and not playing well as a team. This will be sorted out by Trapattoni.

There shouldn't be any token LOI players included in the squad, but there are a good few who are more than capable of representing Ireland.

If he played in england he probably would be considered because he would be in a better league, playing against better players and better training facilities etc. At the moment I dont think teams like Italy etc would be too worried about Dave Mooney or any other LOI player.

SantryRed

Kildarered wrote: »

If he played in england he probably would be considered because he would be in a better league, playing against better players and better training facilities etc. At the moment I dont think teams like Italy etc would be too worried about Dave Mooney or any other LOI player.

What about the goalkeeper from Peterborough who was in Capello's last squad?

I don't understand why you think a player shouldn't be called up just because he's playing in the Eircom League.

Pure Cork

Kildarered wrote: »

If he played in england he probably would be considered because he would be in a better league, playing against better players and better training facilities etc. At the moment I dont think teams like Italy etc would be too worried about Dave Mooney or any other LOI player.

So Trapattoni shouldn't pick a player if he doesn't play in the EPL or an equivalent league?

From the squad for the Serbia game, we're left with:
Richard Dunne
Paul McShane
Darren O'Dea
John O'Shea
Damien Duff
Stephen Hunt
Aiden McGeady
Liam Miller
Andy Reid
Kevin Doyle
Robbie Keane
Shane Long
Daryl Murphy

I included the Reading players because they'll more than likely leave for a Premier League club.

I dont think teams like Italy etc would be too worried about Paul McShane, Darren O'Dea, Liam Miller, Daryl Murphy, etc.

bohsman

Ireland have a terrible national team, untill theres proper youth academys nothings going to change, relying on England to take the better players on when they turn 15 or so isnt going to change anything.

PDN

Kildarered wrote: »

No player in the eircom league is good enough at the moment. We are trying to improve our international team and the standard of football in the eircom league is way off the mark to even be considered.

I agree. I love watching the Eircom League and am a season ticket holder at Drogheda United. I would much rather watch a live Eircom league match than a Premiership or International game on TV. But, I have yet to see any player in the Eircom League, from any club, who is anywhere close to International standard.

Jivin Turkey

It's good to hear Trap say that he will monitor it. Whether he goes in person will be another matter.

Can't see anyone currently in the LOI making the grade though in the short term.

kerash

In my opinion, Dave Mooney is a fantastic player, and is probably one of a few players in the EL who have huge potential to be great players (given the chance). There is no doubt in my mind that he is good enough to be on the international side. I would love to see him play for Ireland.

estebancambias

bohsman wrote: »

Ireland have a terrible national team, untill theres proper youth academys nothings going to change, relying on England to take the better players on when they turn 15 or so isnt going to change anything.

I hope you mean terrible in that we are not France, Brazil, England, Argentina etc.

We have a good set of players with a few very average players. To think otherwise is nonsense. Faroe Islands are terrible. Hell player wise Norn Iron are average. We have better players by far than them.

estebancambias

DesF wrote: »

:eek:

You learn even less about when you don't watch any of it at all.

What?:rolleyes:

In the last two weeks I have gone to see UCD vs Cork UCD vs Wexford Youths. Pat's vs Finn Harps.

As well as Monday Night Soccer, and games on Setanta.

bohsman

Jivin Turkey wrote: »

It's good to hear Trap say that he will monitor it. Whether he goes in person will be another matter.

Can't see anyone currently in the LOI making the grade though in the short term.

What do you think of Gamble Fahey and Mooney?

bohsman

estebancambias wrote: »

I hope you mean terrible in that we are not France, Brazil, England, Argentina etc.

We have a good set of players with a few very average players. To think otherwise is nonsense. Faroe Islands are terrible. Hell player wise Norn Iron are average. We have better players by far than them.

I mean we should be far far better, players should be getting trained properly the minute they start playing at 7 years old right the way through. Given Dunne and Keane are good players, the rest are average.

Bohs seem to be getting their act together with DCU, this is the sort of thing every club needs to be doing. http://www.bohemians.ie/index.php/bohemian-fc-youth-section/youthera.htm

estebancambias

There is no space for Gamble, unless Cork did very well in Europe and he was putting on out of this world performances. People like Mooney and in some ways Fahey have more use, although you could say Gambles style of play would not be thwarted whatever the opposition where as a player like Fahey who relies on guile would be closed down and just find it tougher.

Ireland have other than Keane no genuine quality striker. Doyle is a nice player but he lacks that killer instinct. Keogh has great strengths and is capable of becoming a very good striker but not at this time. I would hope a player like Mooney could bring this to the team.

estebancambias

bohsman wrote: »

I mean we should be far far better, players should be getting trained properly the minute they start playing at 7 years old right the way through. Given Dunne and Keane are good players, the rest are average.

Bohs seem to be getting their act together with DCU, this is the sort of thing every club needs to be doing. http://www.bohemians.ie/index.php/bohemian-fc-youth-section/youthera.htm

Well agree completely, but I would put McGeady and Duff into the good player category. McGeady is certainly not average but in fairness he's not an example of the youth system in Ireland because he didn't come through the DDSL or anything(although I fully support him in the side)
Personally I wouldn't call Andy Reid's talent average as he has great technique and a wonderful pass. What more can he do? He is the player than can make Robbie Keane work.
Good to see Bohs doing something like that.

SectionF

There seems to be a lot of comparison here between eL and a mythical benchmark called 'international standard'. I think that when people apply that expression in this context they are living in a past in which Ireland could realistically expect to give the France, Holland, or Portugal a game. Face it: in spite of the spoilt-brat media and fan hysteria that has attended our failures in recent years, Ireland simply is not of 'international standard'. We are a Cyprus.

The current Irish team is sub-EPL as it is, and there are no fundamentals going on to suggest that it is going to get any better. We are dredging the bottom of the English leagues in desperation, most latterly playing a goalie who said he was English but Catholic, because our selectors, and most of our media and supporters, buy into the 'gulf in class' myth.

Chippie and the boys are conditioned by their own experience and by believing their own publicity and can't get out of the straitjacket they find themselves in. Our whole system is blindly geared towards the EPL, but times have changed and the EPL has moved on without us, sending back our luckless apprentices in droves.

We need to open our eyes to the talent that is in the eL and to work out structures, such as the Bohs-DCU deal, that will keep that talent at home, and to start having an Irish team that is Irish again.

_blank_

estebancambias wrote: »

What?:rolleyes:

In the last two weeks I have gone to see UCD vs Cork UCD vs Wexford Youths. Pat's vs Finn Harps.

As well as Monday Night Soccer, and games on Setanta.

rofl. Three games, plus a shambolic highlights show, and Setanta games on TV.


Well done you, tbh.

Pigman II

rank	players	qual	association
1	45	N	England
2	40	Y	Spain
3	35	Y	Italy
4	26	Y	France
5	55	Y	Germany
6	30	Y	Russia
7	14	Y	Romania
8	14	Y	Portugal 
9	10	Y	Netherlands 
10	3	N	Scotland 
11	17	Y	Turkey
12	3	N	Ukraine
13	4	N	Belgium
14	20	Y	Greece
15	2	Y	Czech Republic 
16	7	Y	Switzerland
17	1	N	Bulgaria
18	2	N	Norway
19	3	N	Denmark 
20	18	Y	Austria
23	6	Y	Sweden
25	10	Y	Poland
27	3	Y	Croatia 
			
[B]35	0	N	Rep Ireland[/B]

Col A = Uefa League Ranking, Col B = Number of players at Euro2008 from that league, Col C = whether that leagues national team qualified for Euro2008.

The simplest stat to take away from that table is that 349 of the 368 players at Euro 2008 played in 1 of the top 20 leagues in Europe.

So the way I read that table is that if you have notions of qualifying then you need to have a domestic league that is around 10-15 places higher than what we have before you should consider taking players from your domestic league.

Otherwise you need to get players who play in some other top20 league..

Basically Trap and co are wasting their time.

OhNoYouDidn't

Pigman II wrote: »

rank	players	qual	association
1	45	N	England
2	40	Y	Spain
3	35	Y	Italy
4	26	Y	France
5	55	Y	Germany
6	30	Y	Russia
7	14	Y	Romania
8	14	Y	Portugal 
9	10	Y	Netherlands 
10	3	N	Scotland 
11	17	Y	Turkey
12	3	N	Ukraine
13	4	N	Belgium
14	20	Y	Greece
15	2	Y	Czech Republic 
16	7	Y	Switzerland
17	1	N	Bulgaria
18	2	N	Norway
19	3	N	Denmark 
20	18	Y	Austria
23	6	Y	Sweden
25	10	Y	Poland
27	3	Y	Croatia 
			
[B]35	0	N	Rep Ireland[/B]

Col A = Uefa League Ranking, Col B = Number of players at Euro2008 from that league, Col C = whether that leagues national team qualified for Euro2008.

The simplest stat to take away from that table is that 349 of the 368 players at Euro 2008 played in 1 of the top 20 leagues in Europe.

So the way I read that table is that if you have notions of qualifying then you need to have a domestic league that is around 10-15 places higher than what we have before you should consider taking players from your domestic league.

Otherwise you need to get players who play in some other top20 league..

Basically Trap and co are wasting their time.

but the league is ranked higher than the national team. curious.

Pigman II

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

but the league is ranked higher than the national team. curious.

I doubt we're only the 35th best national side in Europe by any barometer.

_blank_

Pigman II wrote: »

I doubt we're only the 35th best national side in Europe by any barometer.

I'm surprised Ireland is so high up the list.

OhNoYouDidn't

DesF wrote: »

I'm surprised Ireland is so high up the list.

National side is 25th, my mistake.

_blank_

So where are Poland?

bohsman

Ireland are 24th Poland are 20th.

_blank_

If this thread gets any longer Ireland will be in the top ten.

bohsman

3 different rankings, European league ranking Ireland 35th with a massive chance of moving up this year, Fifa rankings Ireland in 41st moving down all the time and european rankings - Fifa rankings minus non european teams. To make the top 10, we're 4th in the british isles.

estebancambias

DesF wrote: »

rofl. Three games, plus a shambolic highlights show, and Setanta games on TV.


Well done you, tbh.

Awfully pissy mood.

Three games in two weeks, that is a good attendance rate.

I've gone to about 6 Bray games so far, and a more Bohs matches. Not to be sniffed at.

Also the highlights show gives a good indication of how players are performing. Mooney has scored some brilliant goals this season with good variation. Apparently Blackburn are lining him up.
______________________________________________________


How the hell can someone say we are Cyprus level? We finished third they finished second last. We finished on 3 less points than the North...


Then we can't compete with teams like Hollland? Is drawing at home with Euro finalists not competing?

Our team now is better than the 2002 team, if you use players playing in the EPL as opposed to the second tier of English football as the yardstick which people here do.

Oh and in the ELO rankings Ireland are ranked 29th.

I hope to god Ireland have a good campaign just to prove people wrong.

Big Ears

Are there any players in the Eircom League at the moment with the talent to make the first 11 for the national side ?, no

Are there players good enough to make the squad ?, most definitely .
Mooney looks a very promising player, not quite the god that some believe him to be atm, but if he keeps developing he could become a very useful player to have for the national side .
He's only 23 and has recently joined a much more professional outfit having moved from Longford to Cork City .

He was top scorer in the league with Longford and looks like being top scorer again with Cork, infact he looks like breaking Corks record for league goals by an idividual player in a season .
In some ways he is better than Doyle and O'Donavan were at their time in Cork(particulary his scoring record) in other ways he's not .

He definitely does deserved to be monitored as a potential player for the national team, as do Fahey, Gamble and every bloody goalkeeper because plenty of them are better than Westwood and a hell of a lot more Irish too .

bohsman

35th but losing our worst score this year http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2008.html

estebancambias

I actually think Mooney will get called up for the Norway game. I don't know how Cork would feel about this.

Pure Cork

Pigman II wrote: »

rank	players	qual	association
1	45	N	England
2	40	Y	Spain
3	35	Y	Italy
4	26	Y	France
5	55	Y	Germany
6	30	Y	Russia
7	14	Y	Romania
8	14	Y	Portugal 
9	10	Y	Netherlands 
10	3	N	Scotland 
11	17	Y	Turkey
12	3	N	Ukraine
13	4	N	Belgium
14	20	Y	Greece
15	2	Y	Czech Republic 
16	7	Y	Switzerland
17	1	N	Bulgaria
18	2	N	Norway
19	3	N	Denmark 
20	18	Y	Austria
23	6	Y	Sweden
25	10	Y	Poland
27	3	Y	Croatia 
			
[B]35	0	N	Rep Ireland[/B]

Col A = Uefa League Ranking, Col B = Number of players at Euro2008 from that league, Col C = whether that leagues national team qualified for Euro2008.

The simplest stat to take away from that table is that 349 of the 368 players at Euro 2008 played in 1 of the top 20 leagues in Europe.

So the way I read that table is that if you have notions of qualifying then you need to have a domestic league that is around 10-15 places higher than what we have before you should consider taking players from your domestic league.

Otherwise you need to get players who play in some other top20 league..

Basically Trap and co are wasting their time.

Ireland should move up in the league rankings as the coefficient of 0.333 will be discarded. Bohs are more than capable of turning over Riga. I think Drogs will let us down though.

Name a single Irish player who plays in a top twenty league other than England and Scotland. Dominic Foley (Belgium) is the only one I can think of off the top of my head, and he's not good enough for Ireland.

No other leagues in the top twenty other than England and Scotland will develop a single Irish player. Very few are developed in Scotland. The Irish players produced in England are rapidly diminishing in terms of quality and numbers.

That table you provided suggests that for a strong national team, you need a good national league producing young players of that nationality.

LOI teams are as good as Swedish teams. The Swedish teams had excellent runs in Europe last season. In the next two/three years if we put in decent performances in Europe we'll be in a similar position to where they are now.

estaban, I think most Cork City fans want Mooney to be called up.

Our national team at the moment is more than capable of qualifying for the World Cup because we have a good manager who will get us playing as a team.

Ekels

All Mooney needs really is to fill out a bit. He has wicked pace and is a clinical finished, just needs some work in the gym to bulk up slightly. Otherwise, he'd be pushed off the ball in the Championship (or whatever other league he seems destined for).

Yes, Mooney should be given the chance of international football. But the same was said for Roy Donovan, who hasn't looked bad for Sunderland when implemented but doesn't look like a player of international standard really. Donovan did appear a cut above the rest for City in the EL.

bohsman

Intertoto doesnt count for co-ef, would have to beat elfsborg aswell and then face a tough 1st round UEFA cup game to try to get points, Drogs PAts and Cork should really pick up more than .333 points between them tho.

Ekels

Anyone saying that this side:
Given; Finnan, O'Shea, Dunne, Kelly; Duff, Reid, Reid, McGeady; Keane, Doyle
is not capable of competing well at international level is off their head. Finnan, Duff, Reid and O'Shea are the only players who weren't regulars in their respective premiership sides last season, mainly due to injury and in O'Shea's case, playing at a club which flatters him a bit.

Xavi6

At this stage I'd think the likes of Weso Hoolahan and Owen Garvan should be given a run first before we start looking at the eL. These guys have been performing well at a good level for a couple of years now yet haven't been given a decent run in the side. It'd be ridiculous to skip them in favour of eL players.

_blank_

Yep, Xavi has it spot on.

A team of eleven Wesos is what we need.